Keep hearing Druid Tanks are being phased out

[fibre]

Is there any credibility to this?

Most of the people saying this point towards a lack of Druid tank gear, and the Heart of Wild nerf. They say Blizz is concerned that Druid's ability to play 3 rolls is too much. Is Savage Defense enough to counter balance the Heart nerf? Are Druid tanks undesirable to healers in 3.1 especially because of the mana-regen nerf?

Personally I think Blizz isn't going to do this. I think if it's not currently balanced, they've got something up their sleeve.

What's up PTR druid tanks? ???

[arel00]

People cry for the sake of crying.

From the PTR I can assure you, Savage Defense is more than enough to compensate for the armor reduction, and the HotW nerf is barely noticeable. We do lose health, but it's far from being troublesome, really.

So if you see them crying, try to explain that we are *not* gonna disappear. We're fine, if anything, we're stronger on the PTR than on Live. If they cry just because they love whining, tell them to gtfo :P

[fibre]

lol ok thanks. ;D

How much HP loss did you notice from the Heart of Wild nerf?

[Martouf]

I might be wrong, but a druid going all out agility (except a stam trinket) will still have more hp than any other tank going all out stamina.

Blizz is just phasing out the stupid druid tanks who don't know their class.

[Shamb]

@ arel00

Nothing to do with tanking, as I know they just pushed us farther away from capping (which would've been horrible come icecrown...).

I have another question for you. I have heard some cat dps saying they can reach 5k dps self-buffed on boss dummies. I have read all the changes and aknowledge the huge boost to dps, but is 5k unbuffed possible or gross exageration ?

My main was a druid in BC, which I left aside to try the DK. I like novelty, which is why I got 7 lvl 70 character... But now I am wondering who I should lvl next, and am tempted by my good old druid. Always loved the tanking and healing with it, now if I could dps as well, it'd be awesome !

[fibre]

I might be wrong, but a druid going all out agility (except a stam trinket) will still have more hp than any other tank going all out stamina.

I'm still a relatively new Druid tank. Didn't we require so much stamina, because we wear leather, and don't have parry/block?

[Shamb]

I'm still a relatively new Druid tank. Didn't we require so much stamina, because we wear leather, and don't have parry/block?

Wearing leather has nothing to do with it, since we have the most armor.

Yes it was to compensate for no blocking. We have enough dodge to compensate parry, just the blocking we lacked. Now they reduced hour HP, but they gave us a block like ability that absorb some dmg. So it should be nice.

EDIT: The reason they did it was not because we were too weak on live, but because we were too near the cap of armor and dodge, so we would've sucked in T9 content. They had to change it, that's what most ppl do not see.

Arel00 explains it in further details in another thread.

[Koumaru]

If you pick up ImpMotW, you'll see a loss of 6.5% of your stamina in Dire Bear form. If you don't, your net loss will be 8.333%.

Log in on live, shift to Dire Bear, and calculate what 6.5% or 8.333% of your stamina is. Multiply that by 10, and that's how much you'll lose.

It's not that bad.

The armor drop is more than compensated by Savage Defense in all but the most extreme situations, and in those, a nerf was probably justifiable (and it's a small one).

The only thing bothering me is our joke of a 4-piece T8 set bonus for tanking (prot warriors and tanking DKs got a way better deal in that department). It'll make it an easier decision to wear more non-set gear if the stats are better, I suppose.

I'm still a relatively new Druid tank. Didn't we require so much stamina, because we wear leather, and don't have parry/block?

After our armor and stamina multipliers from talents and Dire Bear form, that leather gives us more armor and stamina than same-level tanking plate. We don't have parry, but the diminishing returns on dodge are better for druids than for any other class, enabling us to stack agility. Savage Defense basically IS our block.

Compared to other tanks, we only need a big health pool to soak more magic damage. We don't mitigate magic quite as well as other tanks when Barkskin is on cooldown.

[fibre]

we were too near the cap of armor and dodge, so we would've sucked in T9 content

That sounds interesting, if you remember the name of the thread, or have a link I'd love to read more about that. Thanks man

[arel00]

@ arel00

Nothing to do with tanking, as I know they just pushed us farther away from capping (which would've been horrible come icecrown...).

I have another question for you. I have heard some cat dps saying they can reach 5k dps self-buffed on boss dummies. I have read all the changes and aknowledge the huge boost to dps, but is 5k unbuffed possible or gross exageration ?

My main was a druid in BC, which I left aside to try the DK. I like novelty, which is why I got 7 lvl 70 character... But now I am wondering who I should lvl next, and am tempted by my good old druid. Always loved the tanking and healing with it, now if I could dps as well, it'd be awesome !

I can't say for sure about 5k dps. But. I did test some dps on the PTR versus boss dummies, and I broke the threashold of 4k dps. I scored 4.1k if I'm not mistaken. Considering my dps gear isn't the top (I'm mainly a tank) and that I lacked SR and Berserk glyphs, it doesn't surprise me that someone went up to 5k. My firt data from math models suggested over 6k dps in raids with current gear, possibly higher.
I'd say it's definitely possible.

That sounds interesting, if you remember the name of the thread, or have a link I'd love to read more about that. Thanks man

That thread was called "3.1 Bear tanks" I think, but there are more around with explanations.
Anyway.
Regarding the caps, I can explain it easily.

The armor cap versus a level 83 mobs, such as a raid boss, is at 50k armor (49.7k I think). With the top gear available, I sit at over 44k armor while raiding. Don't get fooled tho, I *am* considering Inspiration, thus a 25% bonus, simply because my healers setup grants me almost a 100% uptime on that. Being short 6k from the cap is worrying for the first tier of raid gear.
Let's see what that means. To reach 50k, we need 40k armor before Inspiration. Without Inspiration, my total armor is around 36k, once fully raidbuffed. I'm considering MotW improved, and Devo Aura *not* improved, which is a very typical setup. This mean that between me and the armor cap there are 4k armor, buffed, bearform.
With a 8.75 multplier as the current Bearform one (Bear, SotF, Thick Hide, and the Meta gem), that 4k becomes roughly 456 armor.
As you can easily see, that is WAY too little of a distance between the current gear and the armor cap considering this is the 1st tier. That would have meant sucking badly after Ulduar, because armor would stop scaling.

Regarding the dodge cap, it has been tested that the DR on agility hits so hard that, when you have over 2k agility, 2.1k I believe, Defense becomes better point to point, because it gives you a chance to be missed.
That is clearly far from this gear, but how far? Well, I did check out of curiosity. Fully buffed, I'm at 1400 agility. As you can see, 700agility more to go is not a short distance to walk, but not an abyssal one either.

With these changes they took us away from reaching the armor cap in Ulduar gear, and introduced another defensive mechanic, giving us the chance to scale on critical strike chance (farm from being capped), and AP, which has no cap at all. This is reassuring, because if we happen to crush against one of the caps, the agility or the armor one, we'll still have more and more to scale on. And that is the biggest issue. Now we're far better off, with 3.1, than what we are on Live. Plus, Savage Defense is a very good mechanic, because of how strong a block is.

As for the stamina nerf, yes. A fully agility gemmed druid has still more health than a fully stamina gemmed warrior. Go figure :P

[fibre]

That's deep

Thanks arel00! ;D

[vayron]

I'm sure this issue is dead by now, but using that logic that Blizz doesn't wanna druids to play 3 roles (4 if you think about it - tank, melee and caster dps, and healer), the same would go for paladins. Same 3 roles. I don't imagine they're being phased out.

I'm fairly certain us bears are safe.

[lostdruid]

sd in its current form provides a comprehension and a needed mechanic but it suffers greatly in aoe packs. you can do some tests on your own with a pala tank friend under heavy aoe.

[Enjun]

I can't say for sure about 5k dps. But. I did test some dps on the PTR versus boss dummies, and I broke the threashold of 4k dps. I scored 4.1k if I'm not mistaken. Considering my dps gear isn't the top (I'm mainly a tank) and that I lacked SR and Berserk glyphs, it doesn't surprise me that someone went up to 5k. My firt data from math models suggested over 6k dps in raids with current gear, possibly higher.
I'd say it's definitely possible.

I like to hear that we are so good, but the difference between possible unbuffed Damage (somewhere around 5k) and your Calculated Raidbuffed dps (around 6k dps) makes me wonder why we get so little of a Boost by Raidbuffs. I've read in other Class Forums, that their difference between Puppetmashing and something like Patchwerk dps is much larger. Why do we get so little out of our Raidbuffs?

[arel00]

First, because models have limits. I tend to use it as a guideline, but that's far from being 100% accurate.
Second, because of class sinergies. Some classes get a hell out of raidbuffs, while other get little. That's somewhat unfair, but that's also how the class mechanics work.
Quick examples: Might gives a larger increase % to someone with 3k AP, than to someone with 7k. Same with other things, like Haste in regard of much of your dps comes from white (one of the reasons why it's so good for combat rogues, but awful for DKs).
It also depends how much you're counting on raidbuffs. Most casters never cap hit, because they assume they'll have an extra 3% in raid. That's a hell of a loss on the dummy, because they put themselves in unreal situations, having designed their own gear for full buffs stacking.

[shono99]

I like to hear that we are so good, but the difference between possible unbuffed Damage (somewhere around 5k) and your Calculated Raidbuffed dps (around 6k dps) makes me wonder why we get so little of a Boost by Raidbuffs. I've read in other Class Forums, that their difference between Puppetmashing and something like Patchwerk dps is much larger. Why do we get so little out of our Raidbuffs?

Look at the damage scaling with Cat Form, and how much AP you need. You have to remember that Cats attack very quickly, so a 10% boost to Stats or Attack Power is not something life changing. You can up your damage by like 30-40 points, yet a 2 handed melee class will see 1-200 damage more daily from raid buffs. And haste scales much better with slow attacks, I think DK's and Shamans have 20% attack speed increase, as well as 3% from Ret Paladins or Moonkins.

[lostdruid]

i like to see that 5k dps solo in heroic dummy.

[Koumaru]

Look at the damage scaling with Cat Form, and how much AP you need. You have to remember that Cats attack very quickly, so a 10% boost to Stats or Attack Power is not something life changing. You can up your damage by like 30-40 points, yet a 2 handed melee class will see 1-200 damage more daily from raid buffs. And haste scales much better with slow attacks, I think DK's and Shamans have 20% attack speed increase, as well as 3% from Ret Paladins or Moonkins.

You just summarized all of the myths about cat attack speed in one succinct post. Thanks.

[arel00]

i like to see that 5k dps solo in heroic dummy.

I did 4.3k on the PTR last night, while testing glyphs. Considering my Cat gear definitely is NOT what you would call Best in Slot, I don't think it's that unreal tbh.