Mace Spec VS Axe Spec Arms 3.1

[kopasetic]

Which do you think will be more effect in PvP?

What about PvE?

[kopasetic]

moo.

[PewZ007]

woof

[Wenger]

RAWR

[Gawrhshshsh]

My initial reaction would be

Mace PVP
Axe PVE

15% ARP on a holy pally is rather happy go lucky smash time.
5% more crit damage is nice, but not exactly game breaking with 4k crits on plate.

[Craz]

For PvE I'd go axe.

For PvP sword is best choice. (6 sec cooldown isn't a big problem in pve, and even less of a problem in pvp with all stuns/cc in pvp)

mace spec doesn't do much vs caster
axe spec doesn't do much vs high resilience (a 1000 hit would end up being a 1500 crit)

Of course this may be different depending on your class racials.

[kopasetic]

Sword spec really?

It's not even garunteed extra swing lol. Only chance.

[Jalynfein]

Mate yes it's only a chance to prov extra swing but you could say you only have 5% extra to proc a crit. Sword has the benefit than an extra swing does double damage ina way resilence doesn't effect it.

But the cooldown on the the sword proc kinda blows and you don't see many arms warriors with it anymore. Still wonder why blizzard can't see they made swords unwanted.

[Craz]

Sword spec really?

It's not even garunteed extra swing lol. Only chance.

Uh duh?

Crit is chance
Hit is chance
miss is chance

Axe spec has just as much chance of not working as sword spec. You are acting like getting another 5% crit from axe means you'd crit on every swing, it's not.. so your axe crit is still only a "chance" of critting.

[Craz]

Sword is superior in pvp still. I've broken it down for you guys.

Lets say you have 30% crit, the player you are attacking has high resilience (-12.5% to be crit, -25% dmg taken on crit)

Lets say your avg swing is 1000 hit, 2000 crit in pve. You swing 100 times do 30 crits @ 2000 = 60,000 + 70hits x 1000 = 70,000 (60,000 + 70,000 = 130,000 dmg)

And now PvE with axe spec: 35 crits @ 2000 = 70,000 + 65 hits @ 1000 = 65,000 70,000 + 65,000 = 135,000. 135,000 / 130,000 = 1.038 or 3.8% dmg increase.

Axe Spec +5% crit brings you up to 35% crit.
Target has -12.5% chance to be crit so your new crit rate is 22.5%, and hit rate 77.5%.
22.5 crits x 1500 = 33,750 (remember resilience lowers a 2000 crit to 1500)
77.5 hits x 1000 = 77,500
33,750 + 77,500 = 111,250

Sword Spec 30% crit
So in pvp we'd have 17.5% crit rate and 82.5% hit vs our high resilience model. But we also have 5% chance for extra attack making it 105 swings and since sword spec CAN CRIT we get:
17.5 x 1.05 = 18.375% crit rate
82.5 x 1.05 = 86.625% hit rate

18.375 crits x 1500 = 27,562.5
86.625 hits x 1000 = 86,825
27562.5 + 86825 = 114,187.5 dmg

That's 2.6% more damage than axe spec. But that was in a perfect world where you never *lost* a sword spec from the hidden cooldown.

Still sword spec with its hidden cooldown will outdps axe spec unless you are orc in which case both are so close in dps, it'd be be up to you, but imo sword spec has far better burst regardless of your race. Getting an Auto attack crit + MS crit + sword spec crit will generate way more burst than just auto attack crit + ms crit EVER could.

SWORD SPEC > all for BURST no matter what class. When you get into some 30-40 min games, what's the deciding factor? It's when you get some great burst dmg while their healer is CCd.

[Deleted]

Sword Spec 30% crit
So in pvp we'd have 17.5% crit rate and 82.5% hit vs our high resilience model. But we also have 5% chance for extra attack making it 105 swings and since sword spec CAN CRIT we get:
17.5 x 1.05 = 18.375% crit rate
82.5 x 1.05 = 86.625% hit rate

18.375 crits x 1500 = 27,562.5
86.625 hits x 1000 = 86,825
27562.5 + 86825 = 114,187.5 dmg

It seems like you did a mistake. You may not have ( HIT + CRIT ) > 100%. This wouldnt make sense. If you got 5 more swings with Sword Spec it does not influence the Hit or Crit chance just the amount of them.

105 * 0,175 = 18,375 Crits
105 * 0,825 = 86,625 Hits

Rest of your calculation is correct but as you said you did not take the hidden cooldown into account. The chance that it really reaches those 114,187.5 dmg is not low but its not exact. To involve hidden CD you would have to know what swing time you have, how long flurry is up and how long you hit the enemy.


Axe spec also adds 5% more Crit DMG. So you should use 1500 * 1,05 instead of 1500.

22.5 crits * 1575 = 35,437.5

Result is 111,250 + 1687,5 = 112,937.5

[K21Nova]

PvP combat is just a tad too organic and unpredictable for simple theorycrafting.

You can't really throw numbers down and decide sword spec is the best PvP spec. I'm not saying it isn't, but if you arrive to that conclusion through simple maths, and not actual experience, then it's either luck or coincidence.

[Craz]

It seems like you did a mistake. You may not have ( HIT + CRIT ) > 100%. This wouldnt make sense. If you got 5 more swings with Sword Spec it does not influence the Hit or Crit chance just the amount of them.

105 * 0,175 = 18,375 Crits
105 * 0,825 = 86,625 Hits

Rest of your calculation is correct but as you said you did not take the hidden cooldown into account. The chance that it really reaches those 114,187.5 dmg is not low but its not exact. To involve hidden CD you would have to know what swing time you have, how long flurry is up and how long you hit the enemy.


Axe spec also adds 5% more Crit DMG. So you should use 1500 * 1,05 instead of 1500.

22.5 crits * 1575 = 35,437.5

Result is 111,250 + 1687,5 = 112,937.5

I did it correct.. Axe had 100 attacks, Sword had 105 attacks in same time span. It means you would have had 18.375 crits in the same time span that axe spec had 17.5 and 86.625 hits instead of 82.5. You were reading it as crit rate which it's not.

But sword spec cooldown is mostly noticed in pve on stationary fights. In PvP when you get CC'd a lot, many times that hidden cooldown is already over by the time you can attack again.

[Zephyrüs]

To be perfectly honest with you.. I'm pretty sure the reason people don't choose Sword is because the current sword spec doesn't even remotely compare to the old sword spec that didn't have the hidden CD.

Also... I'd go with an Axe if I had to choose from the 3. Not because of theorycrafting or anything like that, but because my crit in TBC S4 was 40% (even in mace spec), and with the current PvP gear my crit is like 27% in Axe spec. There is absolutely no way I'm going to give up 5% crit when my total crit is only 25%. I'm gonna stay axe specced until I have 35% crit in battle stance. I feel it as a must to have above 30% crit as a warr.

If I have 35% crit with an axe, I'll have 30% with a mace. I don't have any math to back this up, but I feel 30%+ is an absolute must have. That might however be because I got so used to 40%...

Editing in one more thing... To the mathmaticians above.. You didn't account for the extra rage you get with both specs. What will generate the most rage out of the two specs? Axe or Sword? I think that is more important then theoretical burst on a target dummy. One of the main reasons why I like 30% crit or more as a warr is because I then get crit on about 1 in 3 hits,which leaves me with quite a nice amount of rage. But again, I have no math because I'm too lazy to start equations just to make a point on the forums:P

[bals]

Sword is superior in pvp still. I've broken it down for you guys.

Lets say you have 30% crit, the player you are attacking has high resilience (-12.5% to be crit, -25% dmg taken on crit)

Lets say your avg swing is 1000 hit, 2000 crit in pve. You swing 100 times do 30 crits @ 2000 = 60,000 + 70hits x 1000 = 70,000 (60,000 + 70,000 = 130,000 dmg)

And now PvE with axe spec: 35 crits @ 2000 = 70,000 + 65 hits @ 1000 = 65,000 70,000 + 65,000 = 135,000. 135,000 / 130,000 = 1.038 or 3.8% dmg increase.

Axe Spec +5% crit brings you up to 35% crit.
Target has -12.5% chance to be crit so your new crit rate is 22.5%, and hit rate 77.5%.
22.5 crits x 1500 = 33,750 (remember resilience lowers a 2000 crit to 1500)
77.5 hits x 1000 = 77,500
33,750 + 77,500 = 111,250

Sword Spec 30% crit
So in pvp we'd have 17.5% crit rate and 82.5% hit vs our high resilience model. But we also have 5% chance for extra attack making it 105 swings and since sword spec CAN CRIT we get:
17.5 x 1.05 = 18.375% crit rate
82.5 x 1.05 = 86.625% hit rate

18.375 crits x 1500 = 27,562.5
86.625 hits x 1000 = 86,825
27562.5 + 86825 = 114,187.5 dmg

That's 2.6% more damage than axe spec. But that was in a perfect world where you never *lost* a sword spec from the hidden cooldown.

Still sword spec with its hidden cooldown will outdps axe spec unless you are orc in which case both are so close in dps, it'd be be up to you, but imo sword spec has far better burst regardless of your race. Getting an Auto attack crit + MS crit + sword spec crit will generate way more burst than just auto attack crit + ms crit EVER could.

SWORD SPEC > all for BURST no matter what class. When you get into some 30-40 min games, what's the deciding factor? It's when you get some great burst dmg while their healer is CCd.

GONNA WHITE SWING YOUR OPPONENT TO DEATH?

[Dreadtard]

Axe spec just works so much better with the rest of the arms tree. Deep wounds, trauma, wrecking crew are all dependent on crit.

I'd say in pve go with whatever best weapon you have but in pvp polaxe spec simply rules.

[Crimsonak]

People are also forgetting the fact that Axe spec gives you 5% increased critical strike damage bonus, in reply to the OP, Axe is indefinatly better than Mace spec for PvE.

To Craz, you didn't include the increased critical strike damage in your calculations, and you also didn't include the sword spec internal cooldown either.
Edit: seems you did mention the internal CD my apologies. The increased crit damage pushes it way above sword though.

Axe > Everything. In Both PvP and PvE, even if with different cvalculations sword managed to do more burst then you're not accounting deep wounds and maintainance of Wrecking Crew.

[kopasetic]

Idk, they just need to make Sword Specialization more appealing tbh.

I'm dual-wielding two Armageddons ATM, Thinking about going Arms to PvP (QQ i'll hasta retire one for now).

Even though Armageddon is a great weapon, I find it slightly pointless to use it with Sword Specialization, instead I was thinking of shooting for Inevitable Defeat or Death's Bite for Mace/Axe spec.

But eh, it's w/e atm.
Just was looking for some feedback, not a buncha ppl flaming and complaining to eachother about this or that.
Thx.

[Craz]

People are also forgetting the fact that Axe spec gives you 5% increased critical strike damage bonus, in reply to the OP, Axe is indefinatly better than Mace spec for PvE.

To Craz, you didn't include the increased critical strike damage in your calculations, and you also didn't include the sword spec internal cooldown either.
Edit: seems you did mention the internal CD my apologies. The increased crit damage pushes it way above sword though.

Axe > Everything. In Both PvP and PvE, even if with different cvalculations sword managed to do more burst then you're not accounting deep wounds and maintainance of Wrecking Crew.

1)Wrecking crew is always up in pve, no matter what spec you are.
2)Deep Wounds you can't really calculate accurate just like flurry uptime. But yes Axe would slightly give more deep wounds. Not much though.

People should really be picking spec based on what weapons they can get, not picking weapons based on specs. Lets say you were a mace or sword lover, would you really say no to betrayer if it dropped?

And whats this 5% increased crit dmg you are talking about?

[Dreadtard]

poleaxe spec increase crit chance AND crit damage by 5%.