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  1. #21

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shrizz
    You need to team up with a class with a few but powerfull survivor cooldowns or alot of heals / high HP. A retri paladin would be good to team up with imo.
    o_O you are clearly in touch with the current state of arena... i now understand why you would even consider such an overly-gimped spec.

    ("tests" run at 1700 rating are conclusive, amirite?)

  2. #22

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    Quote Originally Posted by apokteino
    o_O you are clearly in touch with the current state of arena... i now understand why you would even consider such an overly-gimped spec.

    ("tests" run at 1700 rating are conclusive, amirite?)
    For those of us who aren't pro at arena, and who don't just run FOTM matchups, yeah a 1700 rated test works just fine. If you can win with it at 1700 and you enjoy the playstyle, then have at it.

    I also played this on PTR in arenas for over 2 hours last night, a few awesome notes:
    25k holy light crits
    Sacred Shield lasting longer and absorbing more
    HoJustice 20 second cooldown is ludicrous and allows for a lot of control
    7.5k avengers shield crit (instant cast, ranged, 7.5k, a 50% movement snare and a 3 second silence? that is amazing)
    and my favorite advantage: mana burning priests will actually oom THEMSELVES trying to drain you, because of infinite divine plea. It is amazing, try it. Throw on SoWisdom, JoWisdom and divine plea and the mana burning priest will be 0% while you're rocking 80% mana.
    1700 mp5 is soooo nice.

    Definitely give this spec a try if you have a good 2's partner. I will be partnering with an arms warrior. Do not try this in 3's I dont see it having many advantages.
    Definitely fun, definitely different. If my team is successful in any capacity I might make a video of it and post it on wacraftmovies.com just because this would be a unique matchup.

    (also for anyone saying holy shock is needed, I promise you it's not. I went toe to toe with all manner of classes last night and because of my mitigation, just suffered through their interrupts. The spell power/30% crit bonus makes a big difference)

    Edit: Wait a minute, you're running the most overpowered 2's matchup in the game, and you want us to pat you on the back for being good at arenas? Right after you put down anyone running at 1700 rank? Ok well we now know who we can safely ignore in terms of this discussion.

  3. #23

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    Quote Originally Posted by defdef
    For those of us who aren't pro at arena, and who don't just run FOTM matchups, yeah a 1700 rated test works just fine.
    i run FotM b/c that's what my lock partner from S4 and S5 rolled. there are also a decent number skilled pally/warr teams out there. don't give me this "FotM- can't hit 2k" shit. i sat at 2k in S4 as pally/lock.

    Quote Originally Posted by defdef
    I also played this on PTR in arenas for over 2 hours last night, a few awesome notes:
    25k holy light crits
    Sacred Shield lasting longer and absorbing more
    HoJustice 20 second cooldown is ludicrous and allows for a lot of control
    7.5k avengers shield crit (instant cast, ranged, 7.5k, a 50% movement snare and a 3 second silence? that is amazing)
    and my favorite advantage: mana burning priests will actually oom THEMSELVES trying to drain you, because of infinite divine plea. It is amazing, try it. Throw on SoWisdom, JoWisdom and divine plea and the mana burning priest will be 0% while you're rocking 80% mana.
    1700 mp5 is soooo nice.
    1) b/c a 2.5 sec HL is the most efficient and clearly easiest way to heal in 2s.
    2) b/c SS never gets purged or dispelled and is much too difficult to refresh every 30 seconds if there isn't a shammy
    3) 20 secs off stun is solid (ludicrous CC, it is not) but only 17 points in prot are needed to get it... not 48 like you're using
    4) b/c healadins should build their 2s around our OP AS crits- wtf... snare/silence? oh right, you run with a warr.
    5) b/c while you are running around with 50% less healing, no instant heal, and whacking ppl with SoW and JotW up, your partner couldn't possibly get burned when you are mc'd or feared (not to mention cc from the other opponent). nor could you be expected to LoS MB or pressure the priest. clearly you have the only solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by defdef
    (also for anyone saying holy shock is needed, I promise you it's not. I went toe to toe with all manner of classes last night and because of my mitigation, just suffered through their interrupts. The spell power/30% crit bonus makes a big difference)

    Edit: Wait a minute, you're running the most overpowered 2's matchup in the game, and you want us to pat you on the back for being good at arenas? Right after you put down anyone running at 1700 rank? Ok well we now know who we can safely ignore in terms of this discussion.
    holy shock is only needed if you are fighting teams that know what they're doing, apparently. i'm not asking you to pat me on the back b/c i played one of the strongest comps out there... i'm simply pointing out that maybe i know a little more about what would and wouldn't work at my rating. if you can get away with a spec like this at your rating more power to you. but your rating would increase if you specced for real.

  4. #24

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    First off let me say that if you're one of those guys that argues about shit he's never tried that other people HAVE tried, and liked, then this conversation really isn't worth much. I've tried it, after running twos in a 37-0-34, as well as a 51-0-20, and have been on the PTR to test this. I have experience with it, you don't. I am fine with continuing discussing it with you as long as we're clear: You really don't have any idea whether or not this spec will perform well, because you've never used it. Guess all you want, it's still guesswork.

    Quote Originally Posted by apokteino
    i run FotM b/c that's what my lock partner from S4 and S5 rolled. there are also a decent number skilled pally/warr teams out there. don't give me this "FotM- can't hit 2k" shit. i sat at 2k in S4 as pally/lock.
    I never said that anything non-fotm CAN'T hit 2k, I only said that you run the insta-win combo. Grats to you for prior season wins, but frankly my dear I don't give a damn. I still stand by my statement that if you're a 1700 team (capped by skill or gear) and you enjoy this build, it can be very viable.

    Quote Originally Posted by apokteino
    1) b/c a 2.5 sec HL is the most efficient and clearly easiest way to heal in 2s.
    2) b/c SS never gets purged or dispelled and is much too difficult to refresh every 30 seconds if there isn't a shammy
    3) 20 secs off stun is solid (ludicrous CC, it is not) but only 17 points in prot are needed to get it... not 48 like you're using
    4) b/c healadins should build their 2s around our OP AS crits- wtf... snare/silence? oh right, you run with a warr.
    5) b/c while you are running around with 50% less healing, no instant heal, and whacking ppl with SoW and JotW up, your partner couldn't possibly get burned when you are mc'd or feared (not to mention cc from the other opponent). nor could you be expected to LoS MB or pressure the priest. clearly you have the only solution.
    1. a 2.5 sec HL that heals for 25k is very potent, or you can switch to the 1.5 sec cast 9k heal FoL's. Take your pick, they are both valid.
    2. "Much too difficult" I dont know, I've been pressing keyboard buttons for years, haven't run into any problems yet. You'll win the mana game if the shaman wants to spam purge.
    3. no, it's not 20 seconds OFF your stun, its a stun with a 20 second cooldown. In other words you stun someone for 6 seconds, they only have 14 seconds to hang out until you stun them again. It's damn good, try it.
    4. Having AS as a valid burst/silence/snare doesnt reduce the fact that your heals land harder than they do in holy, and you have infinite mana. It's just an additional tool. Once again, please try it before commenting.
    5. You have to use the tools available to you, like sac, stun, silence, resistance auras and timed burst with your warrior (who in 3.1 will be very solid). You're nit picking without looking at the big picture. Let me say it once more: Test this shit out before theorycrafting.

    Quote Originally Posted by apokteino
    holy shock is only needed if you are fighting teams that know what they're doing, apparently. i'm not asking you to pat me on the back b/c i played one of the strongest comps out there... i'm simply pointing out that maybe i know a little more about what would and wouldn't work at my rating. if you can get away with a spec like this at your rating more power to you. but your rating would increase if you specced for real.
    "Specced for real" is pretty bullshit. If a certain spec works in a certain comp, then it works. Holy shock is great don't get me wrong, but it's not the only way to skin a cat.

  5. #25

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    Quote Originally Posted by defdef
    "Specced for real" is pretty bullshit. If a certain spec works in a certain comp, then it works. Holy shock is great don't get me wrong, but it's not the only way to skin a cat.
    first, i don't have to try a spec this extreme to know whether or not it will work. i'd love to know what rating you're sitting at where you find that shock isn't "necessary." by "spec for real" i mean pick spec that it will work well at a 2k+ rating- something that this spec simply cannot do. could it be done? sure... there are prot warrior/holy pally teams that are rated 2400+. however a pally will perform much better with a traditional spec.

    i can tell you right now that i would have an incredibly hard time breaking 2k without shock. it would totally screw up my kiting and LoS ability. i would get interrupted all over the place and would be much easier to burn down (yes, i am taking into AD and the stam buffs into consideration). mage/rogue would be /wrists rather than /collectpoints. it just isn't as feasible as a normal spec is. and don't start with the "thinking out of the box" speech. i've tried 4 different specs for 2s on the PTR with varying success. i will probably end up dipping into the prot tree at least for the beginning of season 6, but my spec is going to be something like 47/24/0 not 27/44/0!

    *** and plz tell me to try this spec before commenting on it one more time. it makes me laugh every time you do. i won't even bother responding to your answers.

  6. #26

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    Quote Originally Posted by apokteino
    i won't even bother responding to your answers.
    Cool, then feel free to stop contributing to a conversation that you obviously have no interest in investing any real work into.
    Saying "This won't work" but not finding out why it would or would not really isn't furthering this discussion at all. Go theorycraft somewhere else.

    (Also, I'm never gonna hit 2400 with any spec, Im not that good and that isn't my goal. My goal is to have fun with a unique spec that still maintains very poignant strengths)

  7. #27

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    Quote Originally Posted by defdef
    Cool, then feel free to stop contributing to a conversation that you obviously have no interest in investing any real work into.
    Saying "This won't work" but not finding out why it would or would not really isn't furthering this discussion at all. Go theorycraft somewhere else.

    (Also, I'm never gonna hit 2400 with any spec, Im not that good and that isn't my goal. My goal is to have fun with a unique spec that still maintains very poignant strengths)
    i told you why this spec didn't work several times. if you want some alternative suggestions- here a 3 specs that would be much stronger for any comp in 2s:

    51/20/0
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9767

    33/38/0
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9767

    31/4/36 (or throw 3 divinity points into AoW)
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9767

    i'll make you a deal though. my first 10 arena games i'll go with your spec. then i'll respec and play 10 more games and post up my results. you do the same, ok? maybe then you'll see wtf i'm talking about.


  8. #28

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    As I've previously explained I have a lot of experience with other specs, and so far I've toyed with 4 specs on PTR. I dont need suggestions for other specs. Also, yes you pointed out why you dont think it would work, however I countered with reasons why it would.
    We both have our reasons, only mine is backed up by personal experience.

    Anyway, we've obviously hit a brick wall here, so have fun with your arenas this season.

  9. #29

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    Quote Originally Posted by defdef
    We both have our reasons, only mine is backed up by personal experience.
    Anyway, we've obviously hit a brick wall here, so have fun with your arenas this season.
    you don't want to try it? 10 matches specced your way then 10 specced mine and compare results? afterall we're all about testing and trying things out and then viewing the results, right?

  10. #30

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    Well sure I'd love to, but how do we compare that accurately? We'd have to have the same gear and same rank going against a variety of the same matchups. Tough to do.
    I'd much rather you just give the spec a try for a few games. That way even if you walk away from it and say "Yup, it is no good" you can at least play with some of the fun toys like perma-stun and AS silence/nuke.
    Another disclaimer that I've repeated a few times, this really only works in 2's.


  11. #31

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    Quote Originally Posted by apokteino
    you're right... i suck at arena...

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ak&n=Apokteino

    Ye, u do suck at arena.

    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...erspine&n=Xiie




  12. #32

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    lol... my point wasn't that i was pro. i think anyone that knows anything about pally/dk realizes till your about 2430 you're not the shit. i'm simply pointing out i'm 2200+, not dickin around with an 1800 team. 185th out of 15k isn't scrub.

  13. #33

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    Quote Originally Posted by apokteino
    lol... my point wasn't that i was pro. i think anyone that knows anything about pally/dk realizes till your about 2430 you're not the shit. i'm simply pointing out i'm 2200+, not dickin around with an 1800 team. 185th out of 15k isn't scrub.
    Actually I've gotta agree, 2200+ is NOT scrub. It might not be "pro at arenas" level but let's face it, when discussing arenas if you're talking about "pro" level you're really only discussing a minuscule percentage of the population. Grats on 2200, even with DK pally you still need skill to get it.

    So, on to prot healing stuff: Update!
    I know I said this would be a useful spec. I know I said it would work. Well, I just didnt know how well it would work. Last night did a lot more testing. Some more field notes:

    Arenas are down. Even group que skirmish, so all my testing was in overwhelming BG's and duels in which I just asked the opponent to fuck me up as bad as he could, while interrupting my heals.
    This spec is so resilient and tough, I really can't emphasize that enough. I am impossible to kill.
    22.5k hp, 26k armor, 875 resilience, over 2k spell power.
    Flash of light crit for 10k last night, and I had a 28k holy light. I spam flash of light exclusively in combat until I pop aura mastery when I then use holy light to make sure that the opponents blow their interrupts. Mages hate this.
    HoJustice on a 20 second cooldown is insane. People were not happy about it at all. I had a small gathering of other classes around my duels just to bitch about the fact that I am prot, and healing myself for 10k flash of lights.
    Sacred Shield absorbs a ton, it feels like it's always on (making for a lot of huge FoL crits)
    Avenger shield is a great way to provide burst, and though I like the lower cooldown on HS for offense, the damage is much higher with AS and the silence/snare ability is soooo valuable.
    Rolling with my 2's partner in bgs you'd be amazed at the control that a 20 sec cd stun and the silence from AS gives you.
    I am going to repeat this: try this spec. I don't know how long it's going to be around, because to me it feels overpowered.

    OH, also I plan on uploading some screenshots and a short video explaining this build and it's use as soon as arena's open.

  14. #34

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    well, like i said. i'll do 10 matches with this spec and then decide from there. in my mind, though, i still favor going deep into the ret or holy tree. we'll see.

  15. #35

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    Quote Originally Posted by apokteino
    well, like i said. i'll do 10 matches with this spec and then decide from there. in my mind, though, i still favor going deep into the ret or holy tree. we'll see.
    Yeah, and it bears repeating that this spec plays/wins very differently than holy. When I was holy (half of last season I was 37-0-34, half I was 51-0-20) your play style is pretty straightforward, heal, help assist burst with shock/judge, and cc with stun when you can. Survivability, you relied on shock and FoL to keep yourself up because you couldn't afford a counterspell.

    My playstyle involves (lols incoming) standing still within LOS of my target and taking abuse while healing. I just eat most counterspells (kick, pummel, etc- against mage I use aura master when i need to drop some big heals. After he blows his CS I am free and clear) and just keep on healing.
    Looking forward to seeing what you think of it. We're still in test phase of course so who knows, this may have some glaring weaknesses I am not seeing.
    BTW this is my current spec and glyphing:

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9767

    Though I will be taking the imp HoSalvation glyph when it eventually shows up on my AH.

  16. #36

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    What gear/gems do you use when u specc like u do?
    Holy pvp gear + stack stam gems???

    Btw. Specc sounds awesome and im gonna try it out as soon as possible xD

  17. #37

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    I love how when people suggest alternative specs or ways to do things in forums it seems to ruin other peoples lives and they feel the need to flip out. As he said it's something different to try and something a bit challenging compared to the typical cookiecutter builds. If blizz didn't want us to do things the way WE wanted then they would have specs pre set by them to choose from. Fat kids really are feisty it seems.

  18. #38

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    ummm... yeh. this spec is not possible to kill. period. just dueled a 2450 rated rogue for over 10 mins and he had nothing. oomed our BiS ele shammy who was fully raid specced and blew heroism. if i switch into ret aura they die. not sure how this will work in 2s. your partner would be the one getting zerged and you would catch crazy cc so you would have to make sure he had some cds and didn't go LoS. also locks would be a nightmare still without instant casts... will definitely play around with it more though. good call deg and shriz... i stand corrected!

  19. #39

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    DP only refreshed on white damage melee swing. There are plenty of opportunities to deny you the mana. Besides, after arms pvp buffs I don't see prot healers being all that awesome. There are so many unskilled players in this game that any trashbag class can get a high rating. I'll eat my hat if prot healers become the new fotm.

  20. #40

    Re: Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacredflame
    What gear/gems do you use when u specc like u do?
    Holy pvp gear + stack stam gems???

    Btw. Specc sounds awesome and im gonna try it out as soon as possible xD
    Well last night I was rolling around in a mix of PVE gear and pvp, with 370 resil. I had about 26k armor, 20k hp, 20k mana. Then I decided to go pickup the new belt from WG and now I am sitting at 875 resil, 22.5k hp, 16.5k mana. I gem for resil in my gloves, and spell power/stam elsewhere. My meta is silence/counterspell reduction by 10%.

    And yes obviously it's all holy, no tank gear.
    Note: though it should be obvious, dont take hammer of the righteous. It's really shit without a lot of str and a high dps 1h.
    I'll try and get some fun SS's and maybe fraps a movie of it this week. Busy week for work but I'll try to have it by this weekend.
    (note: as a fun competition, post SS's of your highest self buffed holy light/flash of light crits! And don't cheat by getting a DK to pop that blood talent! lol)

    Quote Originally Posted by weirdingway
    DP only refreshed on white damage melee swing. There are plenty of opportunities to deny you the mana. Besides, after arms pvp buffs I don't see prot healers being all that awesome. There are so many unskilled players in this game that any trashbag class can get a high rating. I'll eat my hat if prot healers become the new fotm.
    Yes thats true about DP, but that's ok you won't be using DP 100% of the time anyway. As for Arms, please go duel some Arms warriors, or allow me to find one that is wearing BIS set and I'll fraps it. It's a joke. No offense to arms warriors but yeah, this spec takes them apart. As for eating your hat, hey I'm not saying it'll be a new FOTM, I am only saying it's fun and viable, at least for my skill level. I'm not pro and I enjoy this spec, I think you will too!

    Quote Originally Posted by apokteino
    ummm... yeh. this spec is not possible to kill. period. just dueled a 2450 rated rogue for over 10 mins and he had nothing. oomed our BiS ele shammy who was fully raid specced and blew heroism. if i switch into ret aura they die. not sure how this will work in 2s. your partner would be the one getting zerged and you would catch crazy cc so you would have to make sure he had some cds and didn't go LoS. also locks would be a nightmare still without instant casts... will definitely play around with it more though. good call deg and shriz... i stand corrected!
    Haha, yeah, I noticed that too. People hate this spec. I was gathering a crowd and people were in line to duel me just because of how stupid it was.
    2's this will dominate. As for your partner getting zerged, I am going to rely on SS on him, then using BoSac and Divine Sac to transfer 40% of his damage to me. Low CD on BoP will help too if things get too shaky. But honestly our best damage mitigator is 20 sec HoJ. It is nuts. DK or War as a partner is fantastic now that charge stun is off diminishing returns. Charge-HoJ-AS silence-racial silence-HoJ again. Beautiful.
    Locks are always gonna be a nightmare, haha. Those guys suck. Tons of resil will help, as well as the fact that their pet loooooves to just stand there giving you infinite mana (if not from DP then from SoW/JoWis)

    Report your successes guys! (And if you like this spec then let's keep it to ourselves!)

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