Prot Paladin the new superior healer in 2v2?

[Matson]

Instead of this.. What do you think about prot pala and healer .. like pala as the dps , or double dps with prot pala as a support.. (before patch boomkin/protadin worked kinda ok.. got 1620 but with the mana probs it started to suck later) ^^ After patch, I've been able to kill 1v1 healers with my valorous tankadin.. (with manawar or well timed wings burst with seal of justice proc, hoj after, and continuing with AS). Even a restodruid with hatefull gear. With a healer it shouldnt be so hard, I mean, double dps if your healer dies you prolly stay alive ( if not a mage). Or a healer team, you just outmana them and help your healer if he is getting bursted )... also been thinking of Prot pala /prot warr team. Stun+silence team.

Here are the specs:
One with healer:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9767
And the one with prot warr:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9767

[defdef]

I am not as confident of this. The advantages of prot aren't its' damage, it is the control and the crit heals, as well as the huge mitigation. Prot warriors deal serious damage, we don't. I'd stick to healing/supporting with control with this spec.

[defdef]

Boy this thread went from hotly debated to quite as a mouse. Any news anyone? Apokteino?
I had a 7.7k holy shield the other night, that was pretty fun. Still just dying for arenas.

[Ghoti Sticks]

Defdef,

I switched my secondary spec to the prot/holy hybrid spec you've been promoting and I have to say I was impressed. At first it was scary to forgo so almost the entirety of the holy tree to reach the top tier prot talents, but the results are difficult to argue with.

I spent the majority of my time BGing in WSG and AB and was almost entirely in PvE gear (with the exception of trinkets). I glyphed FoL, HoJ, and SoL (I didnt use the AS glyph because I was in large scale PvP; silencing 3 people at once was more than a little fun). There were definite times where I found myself itching to use holy shock for the emergency save when I was just getting into range. Asides from that, onces my heals started landing my target was not going down.

The survivability was great

Mana was never a concern

The level of control was unparalleled

Healing was close to on par with the more traditional holy builds

Obviously this is BG and I cannot know for sure how powerful this will be in 2s until next week. I remain uncharacteristically optimisitc that this spec will be a force in 2v2. And loads of fun in BGs.

[Viscule]

Well last night I was rolling around in a mix of PVE gear and pvp, with 370 resil. I had about 26k armor, 20k hp, 20k mana. Then I decided to go pickup the new belt from WG and now I am sitting at 875 resil, 22.5k hp, 16.5k mana. I gem for resil in my gloves, and spell power/stam elsewhere. My meta is silence/counterspell reduction by 10%.

And yes obviously it's all holy, no tank gear.
Note: though it should be obvious, dont take hammer of the righteous. It's really shit without a lot of str and a high dps 1h.
I'll try and get some fun SS's and maybe fraps a movie of it this week. Busy week for work but I'll try to have it by this weekend.
(note: as a fun competition, post SS's of your highest self buffed holy light/flash of light crits! And don't cheat by getting a DK to pop that blood talent! lol)
Yes thats true about DP, but that's ok you won't be using DP 100% of the time anyway. As for Arms, please go duel some Arms warriors, or allow me to find one that is wearing BIS set and I'll fraps it. It's a joke. No offense to arms warriors but yeah, this spec takes them apart. As for eating your hat, hey I'm not saying it'll be a new FOTM, I am only saying it's fun and viable, at least for my skill level. I'm not pro and I enjoy this spec, I think you will too!
Haha, yeah, I noticed that too. People hate this spec. I was gathering a crowd and people were in line to duel me just because of how stupid it was.
2's this will dominate. As for your partner getting zerged, I am going to rely on SS on him, then using BoSac and Divine Sac to transfer 40% of his damage to me. Low CD on BoP will help too if things get too shaky. But honestly our best damage mitigator is 20 sec HoJ. It is nuts. DK or War as a partner is fantastic now that charge stun is off diminishing returns. Charge-HoJ-AS silence-racial silence-HoJ again. Beautiful.
Locks are always gonna be a nightmare, haha. Those guys suck. Tons of resil will help, as well as the fact that their pet loooooves to just stand there giving you infinite mana (if not from DP then from SoW/JoWis)

Report your successes guys! (And if you like this spec then let's keep it to ourselves!)

I linked the spec to my paladin partner, he said it looks good. Also mentioned all the positive things with it and i have to say this is a sick and impressive build. It really gives that umph when partnering with an arms warrior atleast in theory. Not to mention rogue/mage comps focus on the paladin whenever there is a warrior with them. This REALLY helps alot against them. (Really hard to fight as a warrior/paladin pre 3.1)

I applaud you for your great mind. We will be testing this in skirmish 2v2's first then probably moving to rated matches when s6 starts.

[defdef]

Wow I am really glad to hear other people loving this spec as much as I am. People used to tell me I was an idiot for not taking holy shock but I feel so vulnerable with holy's low damage mitigation that I'm scared to not take prot talents!

As for the user who commented on not glyphing AS, if you're going to do any 2's at all definitely glyph for it. You'll smile the first time a healer gets interrupted by one of your 6 second 20 sec cooldown HoJ's followed up by a 7k avengers shield silence/snare. It's amazing.

ARENAS TONIGHT! Hoping to post some win/loss info as soon as I can get one of my lazy ass friends to sign on.

[Tuhjudge]

After reading this thread i was exited to go and try this spec.
a few things i noticed:
heals are absoloutely huge, 30k+ with wings HL and 10k FoL crits
sacred shield is amazing
mana problem = no problem
silence/hoj control is amazing

issues i had: mages, mages, mages -> with aura mastery on the 2 min CD, im having trouble surviving through a well played shatter, maybe i was relying too much on the BoF stunfree? dispels always take care of the 5 stack crit buff before the nova that he explodes me in, etc. blanket CS at the right time is all it takes, even if juked....i did play a mage the blocked my second AS however...lol
- ret pallies -> cant output enough damage without having to heal that they cant heal through themselves
- locks -> coming out of the fear + spell lock control combo and not having a holy shock to quickly get you up into survivability range is killer, espec if they use fears as interrupts, and just destroy you that way

thoughts?
I do definitely like this spec, looks great for 2s with a plate wearing survivor, cant wait to hear the results/see some movies, definitely takes more skill to play then the usual shock and run that most of us are used to tho lol.
-Judge

[Gilissen]

Tried it myself with some skirmish & bgs & it was absolutely amazing. Love all the different abilities you got now, finally some options instead of just healing people to death & abusing LoS.

[defdef]

After reading this thread i was exited to go and try this spec.
a few things i noticed:
heals are absoloutely huge, 30k+ with wings HL and 10k FoL crits
sacred shield is amazing
mana problem = no problem
silence/hoj control is amazing

issues i had: mages, mages, mages -> with aura mastery on the 2 min CD, im having trouble surviving through a well played shatter, maybe i was relying too much on the BoF stunfree? dispels always take care of the 5 stack crit buff before the nova that he explodes me in, etc. blanket CS at the right time is all it takes, even if juked....i did play a mage the blocked my second AS however...lol
- ret pallies -> cant output enough damage without having to heal that they cant heal through themselves
- locks -> coming out of the fear + spell lock control combo and not having a holy shock to quickly get you up into survivability range is killer, espec if they use fears as interrupts, and just destroy you that way

thoughts?
I do definitely like this spec, looks great for 2s with a plate wearing survivor, cant wait to hear the results/see some movies, definitely takes more skill to play then the usual shock and run that most of us are used to tho lol.
-Judge

Ok, so it's important to note that your playstyle will largely be the same as it was with holy in terms of kiting mages. Warlocks not so much since they only need a moment to lay an entire bar of dots on you. Just fear their pet, or leave it on you to hit with SoWisdom.

Against mages you need to be LOS'ing them and using well timed hammer of justice/avengers shield to throw out heals. Also use your hand of sacrifice and divine sacrifice a lot, combined with your super SS. They are great for mitigation.
As for being actually KILLED by a mage, wow, i dont know I've never had that happen. I've even caught full CS/shatter combos and been fine. How much resil are you wearing? I have a sweet spot of 700 but I occasionally put on 875 if I'm taking too much damage. Your hammer of justice will be kind of a waste vs mages, save it for their partners.
Mage/rogue, obviously spam it vs the rogue. He'll quit in frustration, lol.
Mage/priest, be LOS'ing both of them, and wait for the priest to chase you around a pillar for fear/burn then hammer him and silence mage with AS while your partner does his best to burst him down. If priest finishes stun before mage dies, have partner switch focus to priest.

Locks are just rough. They're rough no matter what spec you take. Gotta LOS the fears, or HoJ the casts if you cant LOS them. Try Seal of Justice and melee'ing them with judgement of light to help with the hots. This really helps to keep them locked down. Obviously be using shadow res aura and keep yourself SS'd.

Ret pallies honestly shouldn't be a problem. They can HoFreedom your HoJ, which sucks, but their damage isn't as hard to manage as mages or warlocks (since they are easily kitable). Keep yourself topped off and have your partner help you peel. Keep in mind your HoJustice will be on a lower CD than their HoFreedom, so if possible get your warrior/dk/rogue whatever to snare them, wait for HoFreedom then land a HoJustice.

In terms of auras, don't use devo unless you're very good at aura swapping. Imp Devo will improve healing in any aura so stay in conc. I can't tell you how many times I've been in devo for a rogue and then popped aura master to avoid a CS from a mage, only to find out that I've forgotten to aura swap. Be aware of this.

In terms of burst on a target- you're damage is shit. It's great burst but you can't sustain it and that's not your job. You're right that this spec is more active and involved than holy, doing pillar humps and holy shock spam, but it's involvement is in the control side. Locking people down, preventing casts, assisting your dps using HoJustice and AS.
What I usually do is try to blow the other teams trinkets ASAP. You're first HoJustice will be focused with your dps. It's intent is to pressure a trinket, so use AS if necessary here. If possible, save it.
Never stack HoJustice and AS against a caster. Make sure to let HoJustice to wear off before popping AS. 9 seconds of no casting is brutal, especially once every 30 seconds (AS cooldown)

Combine BoSac and DP for mana regen. You can Sac your DPS then LOS their ranged and survive long enough to recharge to full if necessary.

Remember that your DP is permanent now, so if you're auto attack swinging at someone remember to click it off before healing. Sounds simple, easy to miss.

Don't forget about HoProtection, it's on a shorter cooldown with this spec so abuse it.

That's all I've got for now, battle reports soon with screenshots and perhaps a video later this week!

Edit: i forgot to mention, the proper way to HoJustice a mage is ideally to be within melee range when you do it, so that you can predict what direction he'll be facing when you HoJustice him, so that you can run the opposite direction of his blink to be out of range of counter spell.
Also don't forget to lure out his CS cooldowns with aura master. Blow aura mastery then follow it with a full length holy light to make sure he has plenty of time to blow his CS timer. You're free to heal like mad after you see it blow.

Shit sorry one more addition: If you happen to find yourself 1v1'ing a rogue or feral druid, don't hesitate to switch to ret aura, pop aura mastery, blow holy shield (this is on your spellbar somewhere right?) and start nuking him. With ret aura, holy shield and your burst you will be blown away at how fast they drop.

[weirdingway]

People can keep you away long enough to prevent your DP from refreshing. You can still go oom.

[defdef]

People can keep you away long enough to prevent your DP from refreshing. You can still go oom.

While i can't speak for your experiences, my personal experience is that no they can't. No one kites a prot pally, and if they tried, judge of justice/hammer of justice/avengers shield prevents it. Again if you've had issues with this I can't comment, but I for one haven't had any.
Also, even a normal duration DP once a minute should be plenty to keep you well above 90% mana. You're wearing partial PVE gear for high int right?

[defdef]

First night in arenas, only got about 1 hour of play in.
Partner was an Unholy dk with 500 resilience, using inevitable defeat.

Record was 12-3, 3 losses from really well coordinated burst that I wasn't prepared for. Should have bubbled, didn't. Won't happen again.

I tried to get some fraps but the few fights that really showed the strength of the build I forgot to turn it on, and there were some amazing moments where I said outloud "God I love this build". One of which was an 8.2k avengers shield killing blow with only 500 being overkill.

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/7...2109215646.jpg

Mana hasn't been an issue so far, though I do find myself using divine plea often- but due to the design of this spec I am ok with that.

[defdef]

Damn after the first day of arenas I am the only combat report? That sucks! Come on guys! Also the arenajunkies.com guys are also running this spec and loving it.

They also mentioned trying prot offensively by going prot/ret and stacking ret DPS gear with a high block value shield and taking the Shield of the Righteous glyph to reduce it's mana cost to 26 or so for big shield slams.

Post screenshots of your success guys

[Tialla]

had to make an account for this one im nothing special in arena, 1600-1700 range, played last season with a mage partner as ret. but this season im gonna roll with that offensive prot / ret spec u just talked about. wearing mostly ret pvp gear. and omg its soo fun, im loving it so far only have done skermish with mage partner but i can see the potential, i controll, stun, silence, pressure, and he cc nukes, and silence aswell. Its super fun, and great to try something new, not sure if its super high lvl worthy, but im enjoying it. my only real prob so far has been lack of healing ability, but i skipped out on the deep prot talent that gives spell power for stam might need to snag that.

[Viscule]

Deep prot/holy with an arms warrior wont work at a high rating due to the high amount of CC going around so instant spells are more and more needed. Interesting build, but it just wont work with a warrior.

Anyone able to give any info on Deep prot/holy with another class than a warrior?

[Tuhjudge]

Alrighty, i have now had the chance to try this in arenas around the 2k PR (both me and partner)
My partner was an unholy DK who recently went frost. For this spec, the frost is much better than the unholy, as it has more solo-survivability
and apparently the burst is more controlled.
Anyways, i must say that i am very, very impressed! it is such a fun spec to play, completely different play style than the shock and run most of us are used to. you ALWAYS out-mana other healers, even if they burn you.
the silence is a great gamesealer combined with hammers up every time you need it.
So far, we have had slight problem with warriors and slight problems with locks (mainly shaman healers as well)
but other than that its been great! our record is better than most at our level.
i will start frapsing a few and posting vids so others can watch.
-Judge

[defdef]

Yeah I've been very happy so far. My two's team hasnt had too much time to play but so far it's been near faceroll ease. Partners are an unholy dk and an arms warrior, both decently geared.
Going to get in about 200 games tomorrow (16 hour arena lan lolol) and we'll see how it turns out. I can safely say that this spec absolutely dominates 2's. My warrior can tear a holy paladin to pieces, but he can't touch me.
I love it.

(did you see my 8k arena avengers shield earlier? wow I love avengers shield.)

[Rymezz]

It could work i guess, if you team up with a class which can also heal aura mastery is win :> dunno if it's included in that spec i'm not a paladin

[Gilissen]

Deep prot/holy with an arms warrior wont work at a high rating due to the high amount of CC going around so instant spells are more and more needed. Interesting build, but it just wont work with a warrior.

Anyone able to give any info on Deep prot/holy with another class than a warrior?

Yes the high amount of CC sure hurts but for anything else the combo works just fine, teaming up with a draenei warrior makes the job easier though.

The thing I like about this spec is that noone expects a "healing paladin" to do decent dmg let alone have 20sec HoJ + a silence. I have no doubt the spec is going to become more & more popular, it's a lot more fun than a holy spec + it's really effective as well. Last season we were casually playing and hoovering around 1400-1500 didn't care much etc because we both would get blown up in 2seconds by a 2dps team. Partly because my warrior has 300 res & I had 100 or the fact we had no clue at all about all new abilities since we lacked pvpexperience since season3.

Well now we don't get oneshot anymore even though our res stayed pretty much the same, survivability has gone through the roof with all the prot talents, it feels like I'm playing a whole new class, the way a holy paladin should have been from the beginning instead of a boring spambot.

The sad thing is that I'm sure the spec will get nerfed soon, so much survivability with crap pvpgear .. I don't want to know what a full pvpgeared paly can do.

But if you stay ignorant, fine ! The less pallies spec prot the longer it takes for the nerfing to begin \o/

[defdef]

Spent a copious amount of time playing this spec this weekend.
2's it is fantastic. I am not that well geared and I am as skilled as I can be, (not great, not bad) and a DK and I hit about 1700 (could there BE any more priest/rogue teams?!?) before my warrior buddy and I decided at 3am to go arms/ret and tanked it back down to 1550.

Prot is definitely, definitely viable in 2's, and anytime we went up against holy paladins we smashed them. Healer teams can't handle the combination of burst damage, frequent stuns, and timed silence (along with huge damage).

3's I expected it to be very weak (indeed- I even have my alternate dual spec setup with a deep holy build just in case) but it ended up actually being very effective as well. My dk/war/pala team is still getting rolled by pmr, but who isnt? Fun stuff. My teams won't ever break 2k, but thats due to our lack of being good at arenas (or investing the time to get good).

As a side note, my dk in 3's is speccing frost for more control. 20 sec HoJ, hungering cold, and an arms warrior should be a lot of fun.