Is Ulduar25 easier than Ulduar10?

[Izenhart]

25men coordination > 10men coordination.

For 25men you 15 awesome dpsers, for 10men you need 5.
For 25men you need 6-7 awesome healers, for 10men you need 2-3.

Every single healer CAN'T fail healing someone, or the raid will mostly wipe, and this, of course, happens way more on the 25men having 6-7 healers to survive compared to the 2-3 of the normal mod. Same goes for DPS'ers not dying etc.etc.

[frester]

Same goes for DPS'ers not dying etc.etc.

just no... if you lose 1dps on 25man it's 1/15 of your dps and on 10 man it's 1/5 (20 fcuking percent)

if you lose healer it's wipe if you lose offtank it's wipe theres nobody to take over

[Eudaimonia]

25 is definitely harder than 10.

As for hard-modes, we can't say for certain yet but I am fairly confident that Blizzard learned their lesson with 3d and I am almost positive 25 hard will be harder than 10 hard

[Eudaimonia]

just no... if you lose 1dps on 25man it's 1/15 of your dps and on 10 man it's 1/5 (20 fcuking percent)

if you lose healer it's wipe if you lose offtank it's wipe theres nobody to take over

You would think that, but assuming equal skill and equal gear, I assure you, 10 man is easier than 25.

On paper, it makes sense that "losing 1/15th of your dps" would hurt less than losing 1/5th or some such, but remember we are talking not only difference of scale but also orders of magnitude when it comes to difficulty. If the encounter mechanics didn't scale to match the number of players, your argument would hold water. Popular argument, but I assure you, mechanics scale in such a way that losing a healer or tank or something in either mode spells disaster. Can losses be recoverable? Yes, in both, but not in every situation (again, in both).


Either way, grab 25 people and try Ulduar25, get past the first few bosses (which are relatively easy), and then try and make that argument with a straight face.

[frester]

@Eudaimonia

i hope you right
i just hope that error margin on 25 is that small, but guess i wont be seeing it anytime soon as my guild is small.

also i can imagine that it's much easier to loose someone on 25man than on 10.

[tehmark]

@Eudaimonia

i hope you right
i just hope that error margin on 25 is that small, but guess i wont be seeing it anytime soon as my guild is small.

also i can imagine that it's much easier to loose someone on 25man than on 10.

if losing 1 person wipes a raid then i don't think we're playing a game anymore. fun > hardcore

[jonnygogo]

I think ppl are forgetting one thing.

10 man is supposed to be done with tier.10 gear.
25 man is supposed to be done with tier.25 gear.

So basicly if 10 mans is easier now for ppl in 25 man tier gear... OFC is it. It should be like that.

Try it in the gear the instance was designed for and you will probably find it is harder than 25 man content. 10 ppl in "casual" gear will need alot more skill than 25 mans cause there is less margin for error.

This!

Being excited about clearing 10 man Ulduar in 25 man naxx gear would be like clearing Kara in SSC/TK gear.

[DrosoFrank]

Being excited about clearing 10 man Ulduar in 25 man naxx gear would be like clearing Kara in SSC/TK gear.

Actually, looking at item level, it would be more like clearing Kara when already fully tier4 kara/grull/mag geared.

But yeah, the point remains the same

[Scot]

I don't know about razorscale after the nerf, but the way we got it with the achievement, 25 was much harder than 10. On 10 we 2 shot her, then we went into 25 thinking itd be free purps, and took like 2 hours to kill her. Its all about the retard ratio.

[getefix]

25 is definitely harder than 10.

As for hard-modes, we can't say for certain yet but I am fairly confident that Blizzard learned their lesson with 3d and I am almost positive 25 hard will be harder than 10 hard

in different ways. 25 man requires more communication, coordination, and in fights where 1 person can wipe a raid (thaddius, KT) there's more room for idiots.
10 man has less going on (usually) but there are less people to take roles if one dies. It's definitely an easier way to learn the fights as you don't need to hear from 24 people their thoughts on why you wiped. the problems that you experience on 10 man are more obvious and coordination is easier.


but ignis is still harder on 10 man. damn constructs.

[Deldavala]

Well im just a 10man raider(Small Social guild based mostly on RL friends) so my experience is based mostly on what others tell me and so on.

The thing about 25man is that you basicly have more people that have to perform 100%, which is in most cases a harder task. In our 10man raid we know that all the 10 that are in there are the best we got, so we know that they dont screw up. Some guilds that are then trying 25man have maybe 15 that does 100% 5 that does 75% and the last 5 dumbwits that die to the first fire that appears on the floor. This is why i belive that for most guilds 10man progress is faster than 25man.

About the difficult level, i dont belive the fights itself are any harder on 25man(exept what i already mentioned). Ofc the bosses do more dmg and have more HP, but thats usally covered by the 25man gear. All in all i belive if you have 25 players that understand everything and perform perfectly you will be progressing as fast in 25man as in 10man.

[underdogba]

Is it possible that the perceived ease of Ulduar10 vs 25 comes from the fact that ilvl 213 stuff was very easy to get even pugging Naxx25, so you're going to have a huge playerbase coming into Ulduar 10 already overgeared by a tier?

[Hugglesmewmew]

mimiron is pretty crazy on 10 for the first few tries.

dunno on 25, id think it was easier.

[wowman]

We are doing both 10 man and 25 mans. The good thing about Ulduar this time, is 25 man actually feels like a raid again. No longer is it, "group the mobs up and aoe the boss down" like several bosses in naxx were. People have specific jobs, and they need to be done for you to achieve your purples. The raid needs to work together between multiple transitions, which is what a raid should be.

10 man is definitely easier this time around. I can't speak for the the hard modes yet, but as far as normal mode goes, bliz got it right. Our 10 man group only has Freya, Mimiron, Thorim, General Vezax, and Yogg left, where as our 25 man is still working on XT-002. We have keep getting him to around 3% before enrage. Our guild is still working out the small kinks to the fight. We also aren't trying to watch every fight posted from the PTR or reading all the new strats posted. We are going by trail and error, and I can assure you this is the most fun I've had.

[Xnzz]

First few bosses where very easy, the last few are "harder"

[underdogba]

I think going forward there's going to be no possible way for Blizz to avoid having 10 mans way undertuned in comparison to 25's, just from the impact of buffs alone. If you compare the maximum possible buff-stacking in 25 vs 10, the difference is enormous for all roles.

Any attempt to tune up the difficulty of 10's is going to run the risk of forcing specific class/spec combinations/stacking, which runs contrary to the stated goals of the developers (for example, that's probably why they've made the replenishment buff available from multiple sources).

With Naxx, just reasoning logically, I think they were in an extremely difficult balancing situation, because 10's and 25's had to be balanced around the expectation that players were coming in at the same gear level. Consider the enormous impact of easily getting all raid buffs in 25's, and it's not surprising that 25's is going to seem undertuned compared to 10's.

As gear levels / tier gets higher and higher with subsequent raids, I wouldn't be surprised if the impact of buffs on tuning gets at least slightly lower, because the percentage benefit of any fixed-stat buffs is going to get less significant.

[b37x]

Are we comparing the difficulty of 10man Uld in 25man Naxx gear Vs. 25man Uld with 25man Naxx gear?

Just playing devils advocate, but maybe that's why 10man Uld feels easier for the players who have been running both.

[jpwkeeper]

I think ppl are forgetting one thing.

10 man is supposed to be done with tier.10 gear.
25 man is supposed to be done with tier.25 gear.

So basicly if 10 mans is easier now for ppl in 25 man tier gear... OFC is it. It should be like that.

Try it in the gear the instance was designed for and you will probably find it is harder than 25 man content. 10 ppl in "casual" gear will need alot more skill than 25 mans cause there is less margin for error.

Blizzard got current raiding system all wrong. They will never admit it but its for all to see.

The point is that, it should be like that but it wasn't in Naxx. Naxx25 was EASIER than Naxx10 given the exact same group with the exact same gear. So Naxx25 in 25 man gear was WAY easier than Naxx10 in 10 man gear.

Yes, one or two bosses may have been a bit more difficult in 25 than 10, but as a whole 10 was harder.

Now, at least, it looks like U10 is easier than U25, which means that 10 in 10 man gear should be just about the same level of difficulty as 25 in 25 man gear. I'd call that fair.

[Terses]

Now, at least, it looks like U10 is easier than U25, which means that 10 in 10 man gear should be just about the same level of difficulty as 25 in 25 man gear. I'd call that fair.

This is exactly what blizzard said they were trying to achieve.

the 10 and the 25 progression lines should be independent, but 10 of course feels easy because just about everyone has Naxx 25 gear equipped.

[Mav]

mimiron is pretty crazy on 10 for the first few tries.

dunno on 25, id think it was easier.

You would be wrong