Will we see an innervate buff?

[lonewuhf]

Actually they could easily adapt Innervate to help feral. Just make it regen a % of your attack power instead of spirit based while in forms, or something similar. It's not an issue of carrying a mana regen staff, and in fact, that concept is ridiculous as no other classes have to do anything similar to regen a stat that is vital. Ferals are having a huge problem with mana in the current patch, a healing touch is about 1/5 of our mana pool for a pisspoor 5k heal. Compared to other hybrids thats really pathetic. Enhance shaman have better mana regen, and better heals. Ret pallies have crazy high mana regen, REALLY good heals. Ferals have terrible mana regen, and wtfterrible heals. Besides the fact that we have to shift to our most vulnerable form to use our heals. Either way, I got off topic, Ferals need mana regen and they could make innervate work.


P.S. This is aimed towards solo and pvp, In pve feral mana is irrelivant. And I know feral dps is better than it's ever been, this is purely a mana issue, not an issue with anything else having to do with ferals.

[Volkogluk]

50% mana return on a 20k mana pool is omgwtfbbq nice. Besides again as resto you have other mana regen abilities in your resto tree besides innervate and you must be a pretty sucky resto druid if you actually manage to go OOM.

So in short. No innervate does not need a buff, it's perfectly fine the way it works.

Get off your tree. Resto druids are HEALERS. what happens to our mana depends on raid/tank damage.
P.s.: by "other mana regen abilities " I am assuming you mean what? Intensify? We had that before Innervate got nerfed together with spirit regen. For which we got NO compenstation ( the innervate nerf ). Priests shadowfiend got buffed. + they have SEVERAL more mana regen abilities. Not just passive regen, like our intensify, but real , honest to god , mana regen abilities which weren't nerfed.
Unlike our ONLY real mana regen ability.

[getefix]

Ret pallies have crazy high mana regen, REALLY good heals. Ferals have terrible mana regen, and wtfterrible heals. Besides the fact that we have to shift to our most vulnerable form to use our heals.

Unless they've made a big change, I'd found that an OOM ret pally is slightly more useful than an OOM out of form feral. As well, their heals are just on par with ours. We may have to switch forms to use our heals, but if we're in form and OOM then we're still useful.

[mandrus]

Blizzard intended to nerf mana regen. There is no logical reason behind buffing innervate.

[lonewuhf]

Unless they've made a big change, I'd found that an OOM ret pally is slightly more useful than an OOM out of form feral. As well, their heals are just on par with ours. We may have to switch forms to use our heals, but if we're in form and OOM then we're still useful.

They did change Ret mana regen, but gave feral no compensation. Ret gets spell power based on attack power, we get spell power based on 70% of our agility (even though gemming/enchanting for str is our best dps choice), on a talent which gives NO other benefit, unlike paladins Sheath. They also get instant Flash Heals for incredibly low mana, where as our nourish (flash heal) costs us 10% of our mana. Also...

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48782 Compared to...
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48378

1000 extra healing just there for less mana.

[getefix]

even though gemming/enchanting for str is our best dps choice

Agil is better in 3.1 with the critting rip, but I'm not sure how easy it'll be to get a SR, mangle, and 5PT rip off in an arena.

I still have to say that the majority of our spells don't use mana so we have more free mana available. With ImpLotP we get a bit back too. But yes, paladins do have bigger cheaper heals and they have an easier time using them.

[Volkogluk]

Blizzard intended to nerf mana regen. There is no logical reason behind buffing innervate.

So are you saying there was a logical reason to buff shadowfiend then?
+ ofc they intended to nerf mana regen. but lets assume they wanted to nerf everybody about the same, ok? Then why were we nerfed twice with one nerf, unlike ANY other healing class? And you can't say our regen was better then priests before 3.1, i have never ever seen an OOM priest back then, while a druid next to him had more mana.

[lonewuhf]

Agil is better in 3.1 with the critting rip, but I'm not sure how easy it'll be to get a SR, mangle, and 5PT rip off in an arena.

I still have to say that the majority of our spells don't use mana so we have more free mana available. With ImpLotP we get a bit back too. But yes, paladins do have bigger cheaper heals and they have an easier time using them.

Are you sure? Rip damage is still based entirely off of AP, and agi only gives marginal crit chance compared to crit rating.
I haven't seen numbers either way since 3.1 so I don't know for sure either way.

[Surfd]

Unless they've made a big change, I'd found that an OOM ret pally is slightly more useful than an OOM out of form feral. As well, their heals are just on par with ours. We may have to switch forms to use our heals, but if we're in form and OOM then we're still useful.

Are you psychotic? A ret paladin is 100x more efficient as a healer with their mana pool then a feral is.

A feral druid in full best of slot feral gear has 0 + spellpower, and about the same mana pool as a ret pallywith maybe 1k more mana, with spells that cost a lot more mana proportionally to their efficiency. Not to mention no way to regain mana while not in Feral form.

Meanwhile, a ret paladin in full best of slot ret gear probably has around 1200 spellpower ONLY from the AP / Strength to SP conversion they get for being ret. and have a veritable arsenal of ways to regen mana.

Hell, our guild's main ret paladin can hit around 2k+ spellpower when fully raid buffed and with trinket procs running. Thats nearly as much SP as my freaking boomkin before raid buffs.

And they dont have to shift out of forms to throw heals, AND they now regen crazy amounts of mana every time they judge.

[Nanite]

I think they just need to find another way to buff feral mana regen, because as a resto druid any buff to innervate would be OP. I am currently on Mimiron in 25m Uldar, it seems to be the most mana intensive fight i can ever remember. Here is the only fight where if i did not burn innervate i would have faced mana issues. Though on every other fight i do have to pay attention to my mana bar due to changes in the patch. This leads me to believe that resto mana regen is currently right at or above the level of regen they want us to have. Any buff to innervate would through off this balaence greatly.

On the bosses i have done as moonkin in Uldar i have seen no mana issues, my innervate always goes to a priest.

[anyaka21]

Since the nerf, the only way I can think of to buff innervate to make it decent, if for your mana regen to be by either int or spirit, whichever is higher. That way it can work well for any caster class.

[d9d9]

Pallies get 25% of mana every 1min back regardless of build. Feral druids have 6min CD for these ~25%. Sounds a bit unfair. With 6min cd it have to recover at least 75% of mana. And if feral plays arena with holy pala there is no much sense to put innervate on him because of his 100-150 spirit too.

[Svidza]

Pallies get 25% of mana every 1min back regardless of build. Feral druids have 6min CD for these ~25%. Sounds a bit unfair. With 6min cd it have to recover at least 75% of mana. And if feral plays arena with holy pala there is no much sense to put innervate on him because of his 100-150 spirit too.

Feral have ilotp and is not designed to heal(only way to go oom). Its about balance and resto imo.

[Lilkirby]

I HOPE SO.

cause losing mana when switching from cat dps to tank. is a pain!

[Nydas]

I HOPE SO.

cause losing mana when switching from cat dps to tank. is a pain!

This is actually why I posted this....<.<

I'm upset that I actually have to carry water now.

[Noopclass]

guys have you read what do this Innervate do ??? its increase target spirt based mana regen to 400% so if you are resto its will full up your all mana back and it give you more then 100% of your mana back if you are balance you are lucky if your all gear have only more then 400 spirt if you care to do more dps for sure .
and about balance our mana regen not from spirt its all from this [Dreamstate] that give you regen mana about 10% of you total intellect and thats better for us coz intellect give us more crit and more pell power so what is better to get more intellect or spirt ??? this question for only balance druids. but for resto
they will have about 990 spirt and all resto druids got [Living Spirit] and [Improved Tree of Life] realy great for us if we are resto

[Beachbum]

They did change Ret mana regen, but gave feral no compensation. Ret gets spell power based on attack power, we get spell power based on 70% of our agility (even though gemming/enchanting for str is our best dps choice), on a talent which gives NO other benefit, unlike paladins Sheath. They also get instant Flash Heals for incredibly low mana, where as our nourish (flash heal) costs us 10% of our mana. Also...

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48782 Compared to...
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48378

1000 extra healing just there for less mana.

AGI > STR for feral DPS in 3.1.

[Pascal]

There are so many stupid replies by people who just so plainly obviously don't understand druids.

Saying a feral's mana regen should come from Imp LotP is ignoring that they need to be in form to benefit from it, and they have to be sustaining crits for awhile. The heal/mana regen itself has a cooldown, it can't occur more than once every 6 seconds. If a feral has to use its innervate, it means something serious is going on that cannot wait for some DPS sustained mana regen. Seriously, you don't think equipping a healer staff for 20 seconds will nerf their damage by a shitload those 20 seconds? Ferals get over 2000 FAP from their weapons, and healer weapons specifically have much les FAP, not to mention their weapons give them CRIT, which is what procs their fucking Imp LotP in the first place. Before you fucking comment about a class's abilities, maybe you should know more than one thing about the class.

And seriously, talking about Innervate like it's still patch 1.8 is just ridiculous. It's been years since innervate was a talent. It doesn't matter at all what it was initially intended to be used for. Are you fucking aware how much abilities have changed and been change SO MUCH that their actual implimentation and useage changed? Disengage, the hunter ability that makes them fly backward, used to be a threat dropping ability like Feint. Try argueing with a hunter how Disengage should be looked at today based on that fact.

Saying a feral doesn't need the mana return because they should being giving their innervate to a priest is a severely terrible argument. You're going on some strange basis that a feral druid will always be raiding or grouping with a priest at all times whenever they are playing. In PvP, when that feral is oom, he should be casting his innervate on a nearby priest, which will always be there. Right? Yeah, sure. And if that priest isn't oom yet, he should just chill out in caster for a good 20 seconds, until his out of 5sec rule regen, which was also nerfed, gives him enough mana to shift.

Yes, Blizzard intended to nerf mana regen, but I don't think you actually realise the main idea of the nerf. It was intended to nerf the fact that for a well geared HEALER of any class, their mana was a non-issue. Mana is supposed to have its limitations and is supposed to be given at least a passing concern, it is not supposed to be an endless fountain like it was. One out of 5sec rule tick for some people was up in the 1300 when they were really geared and raid buffed.

However, they fully acknowledged and realised that nerfing dps caster regen was not their intention. That is the reason that they buffed things like Intensity and Meditation, so that caster dps classes, who never went out of the 5sec regen rule, wouldn't be heavily affected by the change.

Furthermore, in a blue post very recently after they announced their intentions, they confirmed that balance druids would be hit a bit harder from the nerf because of the fact that Innervate was spirit based. They agreed and confirmed that it was a nerf in that department, and that it wasn't their real intentions.

They did not intend to nerf DPS mana regen at all. It was so that healers like druids, rolling LBs and waiting for a few out of 5sec rule ticks, could not do that very well anymore. They also nerfed Lifebloom in acompanyment to the nerf, because resto druids would still be very efficent in that regard.

The spell innervate itself does not need to be BUFFED. It needs to be changed. All regen abilities that dps classes have and use are based on max mana. Innervate is the only one left that is spirit based. Evocation was changed a millenia ago to regen a set percent of mana. Divine Plea restores 25% of max mana, abilities that Enh shaman have, and things like Judgement of the Wise all restore a percent of the actual mana pool. Innervate is outdated in this way.

It's unfortunate that such an interesting mechanic as Innervate, castable on other people and based on a stat, should need to be changed, but it's the only way to fix how broken it is right now. It still restores inffy mana to resto druids, but ferals get nearly no benefit from it, and a moonkin gets anywhere from a meager mana potion's worth, or a little bit more in a 25 man with full raid buffs, which happens to be the one situation that they don't need it that much.

Innervate is not supposed to be something that druids themselves gauge their mana useage on. It isn't supposed to be popped every cooldown, that's why it's cooldown is so long to begin with. Divine Plea is there to fully suppliment a protection paladin's mana, and for a ret paladin during longer fights. That's why it has a short cooldown, restores only 25% of mana, and is only castable on the paladin itself, and also why it puts a deficit on their healing output, because it's not supposed to an infinite mana supply for holy pallies.

Innervate is meant to restore a large chunk of mana in a bad situation that you wouldn't be expecting. As a balance druid, maybe you had to rez a healer and toss a few heals during a bad situation where someone messed up, but you find yourself running oom far faster than you would have expected if you were just continuing on your regular rotation. Or even worse, imagine you're a feral druid that had to rez a healer and toss a heal. Believe me, it does happen, especially now that raiding actually got a little more dynamic.

Innervate does need to be changed, but the actual concern is the fact that it is useless for feral and terrible for balance. It's well and good that feral's can reduce their shapeshifting costs down to a good 300 or so mana, but their heals still cost what they cost, and their Lifeblooms are 900+ mana now, too. Ferals cannot rely on Innervate if they need to use their actual mana.

[arel00]

First, you should try to control your tone. As it is now, it really won't get you anywhere.

Second, are we arguing about Feral mana regen or what? Because if you talk about Restoration, the nerf was meant to be there, and to be hard. If we talk about Balance, I think nearly everyone agrees that boomkins need some kind of mana fix. When it comes to Feral, I'll state my point again: feral druids should NOT be based around the fact that you have Innervate. End of it.

You say it's for emergency situations, and that makes sense. It is also true that, if you are in an emergency situation and have no time (your own words) to rely on being in a feral form and crit, then you won't really be losing dps from swapping your weapon. This is pure logic: either you're a) doing dps in a feral form, and rely on your weapon and on LotP, or b) out of your form NOT doing dps and rely on Innervate.

My point is not that we are in 1.8. I just clarified a contest for someone who openly admitted he didn't know Innervate was once a talent. My point is that Innervate never was, is, or will be, designed as a feral-buffing skill. It is designed and balanced around boomkins and trees, the two actual specs that have (or should have) use for Spirit. Feral has no use for Spirit, that much is undeniable.
Calling upon hunter skills to make comparisons is like comparing apples to orange. The fact that some other class needed a skill rework doesn't mean our skills do.

Whether the current implementation means too low or too high mana for ferals, that is a COMPLETELY different thing. I thought that much was clear enough on my post, it seems it was not.
If we need a mana buff then there are AT LEAST four different talents that can be tuned to fix the problem, without giving Innervate the sligthest touch and thus without risking to break the balance for other specs or classes that can benefit form it.

If you feel like needing a buff to your mana, post a smart suggestion. Tuning up a skill that can potentially screw up all the mana rebalancing in the game is not smart, it just shows limited vision.

[Pascal]

First, you should try to control your tone. As it is now, it really won't get you anywhere.

Temper nothing, it's really irritating to see people make awful, terrible arguments based off entirely false presumptions and inaccurate information.

Second, are we arguing about Feral mana regen or what? Because if you talk about Restoration, the nerf was meant to be there, and to be hard. If we talk about Balance, I think nearly everyone agrees that boomkins need some kind of mana fix. When it comes to Feral, I'll state my point again: feral druids should NOT be based around the fact that you have Innervate. End of it.

You seem to have reading comprehension problems. We're talking about how the use of Innervate is an emergency situation spell, where the ability isn't meant to be used all the time and instead to be saved for situations that call for it. The class isn't based around it, no one is saying it is. The situations that Ferals need Innervate are like situations where mages need iceblock. An unfortunate aggro pull, an unfortunate mana-intense situation. Same idea.

You say it's for emergency situations, and that makes sense. It is also true that, if you are in an emergency situation and have no time (your own words) to rely on being in a feral form and crit, then you won't really be losing dps from swapping your weapon. This is pure logic: either you're a) doing dps in a feral form, and rely on your weapon and on LotP, or b) out of your form NOT doing dps and rely on Innervate.

This argument is just bad. Here is an exact situation where a feral would use Innervate and not want to swap his weapon out:

You're in PvP and you are forced to heal a nearby teamate, cyclone an enemy, shift into bear form and survive a Rogue evasion/cloak of shadows. When you want to shift back into cat, you want to cyclone the rogue, heal yourself, and shift into cat. You will want to use Innervate to regen enough to at least throw on a decent heal and shift back into cat, because trust me, feral mana pools are that bad.

The basic idea here is that you want to be able to adequately use ALL OF YOUR CLASS' ABILITIES in order to properly PvP. As a Feral, there's no way you can pull off a saving grace like this, which trust me is something that DID happen in your magical past, where Innervate was always saved for priests, with Innervate in the state it's in.

When an ability is affected by changes and is used, and accepted by Blizzard as a way it's used, it effectively changes the way Blizzard bases things around the class. Ferals using their innervates in PvP because they can shift out, throw heals, in tight situations, was an accepted and actually supported.

My point is not that we are in 1.8. I just clarified a contest for someone who openly admitted he didn't know Innervate was once a talent. My point is that Innervate never was, is, or will be, designed as a feral-buffing skill. It is designed and balanced around boomkins and trees, the two actual specs that have (or should have) use for Spirit. Feral has no use for Spirit, that much is undeniable.
Calling upon hunter skills to make comparisons is like comparing apples to orange. The fact that some other class needed a skill rework doesn't mean our skills do.

What. You clarified that Innervate used to be a Restoration talent, because it was based around Resto AND Balance specc? If Innervate was never meant to be a feral buff because it was in the Resto tree, it was also not meant to be a Balance buff. And, you know what else, in those days after Innervate was made a base ability, Feral PvP gear had spirit and spell damage/healing on it. It may have been in the Resto tree when it was a talent, but the second it was made into a base ability, Blizzard juggled ideas with it, making it useful for all three speccs.

And comparing the hunter ability was not me comparing Innervate to Disengage, I was explaining how abilities change over time. It was an example of how an ability can change completely since its creation.

Whether the current implementation means too low or too high mana for ferals, that is a COMPLETELY different thing. I thought that much was clear enough on my post, it seems it was not.
If we need a mana buff then there are AT LEAST four different talents that can be tuned to fix the problem, without giving Innervate the sligthest touch and thus without risking to break the balance for other specs or classes that can benefit form it.

Seriously? You don't think that changing Innervate to restore a base amount of mana wouldn't fix everything and be completely reasonable? If Innervate restored a flat 60% of total mana, it would make it normalised for casting on a feral, a balance, or resto druid, and even more than that, it would actually be beneficial for a Shaman or Paladin healer, or even a ret pally or enh shaman.

If you feel like needing a buff to your mana, post a smart suggestion. Tuning up a skill that can potentially screw up all the mana rebalancing in the game is not smart, it just shows limited vision.

See above: Changing Innervate to be a percent of max mana would only fix EVERYTHING.