FoL spam build vs HL spam build in ulduar?

[Wintry]

Why doesn't anyone support any of their "facts" with evidence?

Here is a little math where I compared (on ptr 3.1) the effectiveness of a common holy build (51/0/20) to an uncommon proly build (28/43/0) Please keep in mind that this does not pertain to the OP as they are suggesting 51/20/0, which I will disagree with as being an "FoL" build and will never reach a 10k+ FoL unless you use wings.

Holy HL (42.41% crit, 2300ish spellpower)

11000 * (1-.4241) = 6335
16000 * (.4241) = 6786
13121 average

mana
1274 * (1-.4241) = 734
510 * (.4241) = 216
950 average

13121 * 1/1.48
8866 HPS

940 * 1/1.48
635 MPS

13 HPS/MPS


________

Proly FoL 37% crit 2600ish spellpower

4700 * (1-.3741) = 2942
9300 * (.3741) = 3479
6421 average

mana
307 * (1-.3741) = 192
123 * (.3741) = 46
238 average

6421 * 1/1.28

5016 HPS

238 * 1/1.28

186 MPS

27 HPS/MPS

About 3.8k HPS more from holy HL spam or about 33% more HPS though you should note that hps/mps for proly fol is more than twice, basically twice as efficient per the same amount of hps.

Now... here's where things get interesting. Statistics are purely basic in these examples. If i was to compare a statistic where FoL was being used with HL every other cast or as a reactive cast I could see that the playing field would level out on both hps of the proly build and the hps/mps of the holy build.

Really we are all splitting hairs here.... And yes I do keep my tanks capped with FoL and through recount I may not do the most total healing, but I do do the most healing on my tank with FoL spam + HL sprinkles.

HPS definately does not define an ability especially when compared to a statistically difficult situation. Also the above does not include extra crits from SS which may account for more.

Actually I should point out that having additional SS absorption helps bridge the gap between the two for healing and only increases efficiency of the FoL.

No one will probably read the above, but if you have any questions please ask me.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=46988.15

contains the original analysis of proly vs. holy which is basically a FoL versus HL discussion.

[Varaben]

I keep reading that people think holy shock is worthless. Holy shock is the strongest instant cast heal in the game. Riptide is ok, disc priest with the shield glyph is ok, the 4 pc resto druid set is ok, but noone else has an on demand (with the glyph, barely even a cd) instant heal. For fights like kologarn where there is a lot of damage really fast, its a great ability. For MT healing, you relaly need to be precasting though, I will agree with that. I think to limit yourself to one ability like "FL build" or "HL build" is silly. You should be trying to make a build that allows you to be flexible and make the most use out of your abilities. When I heal, I try to make use of all my skills. When Im healing small amounts of damage, its fine to shock and FL, but when the tank is getting hit for 20k, it makes no sense to do a 1s flash when you could do a 1.7s holy light for way more healing. Flash builds seem to be built for secondary healing, like supporting other healers. Topping the MT off while hots do their job. But when the tank takes two hits in a row (or two blocks even), they can take spike damage and get gibbed. Holy light prevents this.

[Kadas]

the original analysis of proly vs. holy which is basically a FoL versus HL discussion.

Wintry,

Not every holy topic in this forum is relevant to your "proly" discussion. the HL vs FoL is in fact a different argument entirely, as 51/20/0 and 51/0/20 both include talents considered crucial for any viable raid build. I applaud and commend your ability think creatively, but clearly these topics aren't related.

btw - I can do "the most healing on my tank" without ever directly healing him just by throwing up beacon - you will probably agree that i haven't proven much with that assertion. I hope you can understand why one might consider your numbers slightly, erm... selective.

I hope you don't take this as an invitation to open another "proly" discussion and instead take it as an invitation to weigh in on the original question concerning the viability of a 51/20/0 variant vs.a 51/0/20 variant.

[Salarius]

I've only been following the Pally forums for a few days, but from what I have seen and inferred from those observations is that the HL spam build is even more useful in Ulduar than in Naxx. Bosses hitting for 12k+ regular melee hits, and huge amounts of total raid dmg make HL glyph even better and reduce its overheal amount.

I could of course be wrong so don't base anything off my post alone

To you vets, if I'm wrong correct me so I know how to spec as well :P

You just made me quite happy, Grom. I was recently removed from a guild because my HoL build did not show up well on the meters compared to another FoL holy paladin in my usual raid. I never lost a tank and certainly never caused a wipe. I'm exteremly happy to hear that the build I am more comfortable with is working out better.

[Bilbobubblin]

I use Holy Light and Flash of Light a lot, on the meters I tend to cast FoL around twice as often, though HL sometimes ends up healing more. FoL now heals for 5.4k/8.1k crit raid buffed on a 1.01s cast... honestly with both Holy Pallies always on the MT that's a decent amount of incoming healing. There are a lot of time where FoL spam is more than enough. Also lot of times where you will have to spam HL. Using whatever is best at the time > spamming one type of heal.

[Sanguissa]

There is no point in this discuission.

Flash is fine but if you would have 7 paladin healers in raid and they would just flash and shock, you would wipe on every damn boss in ulduar.

If you would have paladin spamming just flash in normal raid, this paladin would suck in meters(ofc, hps is not all, but whats the use for full mana pool? Iam good at saving mana and topping peoples with flash, but i actually suck at healing peoples at all, because other healers have to heal what i left for them?)

Just no point. HL will be always better. Flash is ofc usefull, but its trashspell, something you spam by-the-way, its heal for boring situation, it fits maybe for naxx.

[bdk]

I'm using 51/2/18, because I love crit.

I have never liked Holy Light, but I was just starting to enjoy it a bit more. But without crits from the glyph, and infusion of light nerf, I find HL pretty crap atm. FoL is enough for most things, and when it isnt Shock should be off cd. It's just too hard to get HL into any sort of "rotation" (I know healers dont use rotations like dps, but this is the best word for it)

Get Holy shock glyph, Holy shock makes or breaks most fights I have seen.

HAR HAR HAR HOLY SHOCK GLYPH HAR HAR

The best Glyphs to use are holy light, divinity, and seal of wisdom and my holy light usage is like 80% other is holy shock and glyph, and I have no mana problems

Edit: God damn your bad, you find holy light useless because infusion of light nerf? Its a buff for our mana return, making it better... only reason the nerf sucks is for pvp

[Sanguissa]

HAR HAR HAR HOLY SHOCK GLYPH HAR HAR

The best Glyphs to use are holy light, divinity, and seal of wisdom and my holy light usage is like 80% other is holy shock and glyph, and I have no mana problems

Edit: God damn your bad, you find holy light useless because infusion of light nerf? Its a buff for our mana return, making it better... only reason the nerf sucks is for pvp

Thats just true.

Paladins that dont use HL and right glyphs will never heal the amount as paladins that do that. They will be always worster in heal.

And that HS and flash i enough for keeping raid alive? HL is even better, its more save and thats just it.

As a cl i our guild, iam looking for new holy paladin, i really hope ill find some who will just accept this style of play

[Xs]

The Infusion nerf did hit HL builds pretty hard in the ohshi- department which they excelled so well in, and the 20% crit bonus is no where near comparable considering its very hard to go oom even on fights where you're pressed for DP time.
From general "old" content 25s (hard to test it fairly with Ulduar) I've noticed a very large drop in my effective healing, being traded for a lot more overheal and general worse healing, with the odd poor mistake which cost a wipe, and could of been easily corrected with Divine Favor HS + HL pre nerf

As a cl i our guild, iam looking for new holy paladin, i really hope ill find some who will just accept this style of play

It is very hard to find them from a guild point of view, your best bet is to recruit someone slightly undergeared and train them towards HL

[Wintry]

OT:

I hope you can understand why one might consider your numbers slightly, erm... selective.

The only thing that may be selective was my gemming and enchanting as originally posted. I would take no pride in selective numbers, unless you consider my selection of basic spam-type healing to be skewed. I posted the mathematics in defense of a build that takes full advantage of FoL spam / SS, more so than 51/20/0. The information was also set outside of a raid, of which it is debateable to which one would scale better (I would believe proly would due to +sp from stam.)

I did not mean to derail this post in anyway, but I personally use proly as my FoL, low mobility build and 51/0/20 as my HL, high mobility build. I took the original topic to include any build as being an FoL build... I really dont find 51/20/0 to be any more of an FoL build than 51/0/20.

In Ulduar Proly has been working great, 13k is my highest FoL without a priesty thing up. (down with the naysayers)

[Googolplex]

One note worth mentioning when comparing FoL SPAM, to HL "spam". With JotW and decent haste you will hit the MT twice between two attacks with FoL on most boss fights and once with HL.

I am not sure which is better tbh, but you cannot just compare the healing output of FoL to HL (which is totally lame tbh), you have to look at how much healing you are able to output in between two attacks.

I tend to favor FoL, but I agree that a HL build still looks more powerful

[Decapitation]

From the time the 1st mob till the time the 2nd mob dies the tanks need to have a cooldown up and you need to have huge heals coming in, that means holy light spam for that 30 secs to a min because the mobs are hitting for 30k dmg or so, a 10k flash of light just wont cut it and without the JotP haste you arent going to be landing heals fast enough.

Did you know, that you can DPS both simultaneously and kill them at the same time without any stress on tanks or healers? Just keep them further so dps have time to dps spark... :

On-topic: I am playing on holy pala in Ulduar in our 10 man raiding guild - http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...ane&n=Centrino

I am curious what kind of build do you mean OP, could you post some link? I just dont understand how will FoL build differ from standard Holy build. In Ulduar I am usually on MT (OT with beacon on MT) and I am not having mana problems (maybe on Ignis prenerf or General but that one is pretty different) I am keeping Beacon/sacred shield on tank and priorize HL and HS over FoL. FoL I use only very occasionally.

[Kadas]

HAR HAR HAR HOLY SHOCK GLYPH HAR HAR

I wanted to point out that I held the same opinion regarding the Holy Shock glyph (without the caps perhaps) until recently. The idea of glyphing for a spell that is an hps decrease doesn't make sense until you factor in the extraordinary amount of movement in the last boss fights in Ulduaar. I'm currently using Glyphs of Seal of Wisdom, Holy Light, and Holy Shock.

Maybe after we get better at the fights we'll learn how to stay stationary a bit more but as of right now, the glyph of Holy Shock is op.