Ulduar Min / Maxing

[Malice83]

Yep, me and everyone on this forum are wrong.

http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t30655-w...m_3_1_updated/

Grats.

And yes, 1.5 seconds wasted every 30 seconds is more of a dps loss than 12 crit and hit. Sorry.

You are one of those guys that went to EJ and read something and because it is on EJ will defend it to the death. Hey guess what it has its uses. Just like in BC for Warriors the best threat enchant was speed to boots! That was on EJ too! How many EJ warriors enchanted that way? Zero. You don't even factor in haste. Hmm would I rather blink some where I need to get to fast or run? Blink to the power rune on Council or walk there? I know I will be blinking.

[Swizzle]

You are one of those guys that went to EJ and read something and because it is on EJ will defend it to the death. Hey guess what it has its uses. Just like in BC for Warriors the best threat enchant was speed to boots! That was on EJ too! How many EJ warriors enchanted that way? Zero. You don't even factor in haste. Hmm would I rather blink some where I need to get to fast or run? Blink to the power rune on Council or walk there? I know I will be blinking.

i know i'll be walking, just cause i know he's gonna spawn a death rune right under it in 5-10 seconds.

anyway, mages do well in ulduar, the only problem is there are no true stand and cast fights like there were in naxx...well, the ones that are are gimmick fights and i don't use them as a fair DPS comparison. only thing i can think of that comes close to stand and cast is kologarn, but even that is a stretch.

[Emiex]

Kolo is stand and cast, Razorscale is when hes down, Ingis is stand and cast, Mimiron is stand and cast for most of it, but yes movement has always plagued mages abilities to top meters.

[Hiddendart]

i can post a hodir parse of 8.9k DPS, but that's not what i was saying, re-read the actual quote. rawr has a TtW/fireball mage with full BiS ulduar gear at 7.7k DPS. i am most certainly not in full ulduar BiS gear.

fyi, i dare you to call pheq (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...Illidan&n=Pheq) and nubzy (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...llidan&n=Nubzy) bad. go ahead, i triple dog dare ya.

ur rogue can do way better than that. even his spec and daggers? dont make me fall out of my chair laughin. as for the warlock. I dont know a whole lot how they work, so I wont touch it.

edit: warlock not druid.

[Swizzle]

i don't know much about rogues outside of pvp, but pheq is one of the top rogues on my BG (outside of akrios and neilyo), and nubzy has been glad every season except this one if i recall. i just posted them because they were the best reps. of the classes mentioned in that raid.

[Emiex]

Cause PVP = PVE, You can make a correlation between the two that a good pvper is a good pver but they are totally different. The warlock if good and Naxx 25 geared should be around ~5500-6100, the rogue again if Naxx 25 geared should be around ~6000-6500. How do these numbers compare to what you see in a raid.

[Indarys]

You are one of those guys that went to EJ and read something and because it is on EJ will defend it to the death. Hey guess what it has its uses. Just like in BC for Warriors the best threat enchant was speed to boots! That was on EJ too! How many EJ warriors enchanted that way? Zero. You don't even factor in haste. Hmm would I rather blink some where I need to get to fast or run? Blink to the power rune on Council or walk there? I know I will be blinking.

And then you would die because blink was on cooldown when he spawned a death rune under it.

And warriors took Boar's speed because it was the best enchant. Most tanks I knew took it. An extra 3 stamina or run speed? Hmm, not really a hard choice.

I defend saying run speed, and range, is better than lolspirit because it is. You'd literally have to be braindead to not see how it is. In fact, my guild now requires all raiders to have a run speed enchant. Even running for a second every 10 seconds or so makes up for it. Razorscale is a perfect example--you need range on the adds constantly as the tank picks them up and drags them to you. Having Flamethrowing means you can start dps a good second earlier than you could otherwise. Obviously that makes up for the 0.8% crit from spirit, particularly as this is happening time and time again throughout the fight. What else is like this? XT, Hodir, Thorim, Freya, Mimiron, and Yogg. Over half the fights favor flamethrowing over spirit. Then there's fights where you not having range means you need to get in the clusterfuck that is >35 yards in. This causes raid dps loss as people have to spread out even further to avoid you. That's Iron Council, Vezax, and others I mentioned above. It shouldn't be that hard to see that the extra 70 dps (the same amount of extra dps that Emiex here is claiming "isn't worth it" on a topic he also claims to be a serious min-maxer) on a handful of fights isn't worth it.

Fights you spend more than 4 seconds running? Where run speed allows you to stop earlier and cast earlier, giving you a dps boost? Razor, XT, Kologarn, Iron Council, Thorim, Hodir, Vezax, Yogg, Freya, Mimiron...that's all of them besides Auriaya and Ignis, and there you might have to run depending on your strat. If you're going to waste blink everytime you want to move out of a void zone, by all means, have at it, waste the 600 mana and 1.5 seconds. I'll be using my run speed enchant to spend less time running away and more time dpsing, since I'll also be casting instants while I'm running, like hot streak pyro, living bomb, or if they're up, fireblast.

If you still want to try to claim that icewalker beats out run speed more often than the opposite, God help you. Have fun wiping on Mimiron.

[Emiex]

I love the fact that you are so adamant about this. Why don't you go ahead and post your guild and your armory so I can rip it apart. I think I should make a new poll because I'm pretty sure you are the only one that thinks this is the case. If its posted on EJ doesnt mean its right you fanboi. So just quote this and fill it out if you got a pair.

My Armory is:______________________________
My Guild Name and Server is:___________________________

[Indarys]

I love the fact that you are so adamant about this. Why don't you go ahead and post your guild and your armory so I can rip it apart. I think I should make a new poll because I'm pretty sure you are the only one that thinks this is the case. If its posted on EJ doesnt mean its right you fanboi. So just quote this and fill it out if you got a pair.

My Armory is:______________________________
My Guild Name and Server is:___________________________

I'm not adamant, it's just hilarious to watch someone who thinks they know how to play a mage fail so tremendously.

And I'm sure, the hundreds of the best theorycrafters in the world are wrong, and some scrub mage who can't kill Vezax is right.

What's the max dps you did on Brutallis? I bet it was less than mine, and I have the screenshot to prove it. Fail harder.

Next time you want to make a post about how "getting every bit of DPS out of your character is pretty important when learning new content" don't turn around and say "I don't care that my gem choices are bad, it's not a big enough difference."

Actually do, it gives me something to laugh at.

[Hiddendart]

i don't know much about rogues outside of pvp, but pheq is one of the top rogues on my BG (outside of akrios and neilyo), and nubzy has been glad every season except this one if i recall. i just posted them because they were the best reps. of the classes mentioned in that raid.

PvP he looks nice. For PvE, his build is not so hot and daggers have never been the best weapon in pve. anyways. This is mroe of a word fight between you and other mage. Ill let u 2 have hot flashes at it.

[Emiex]

I'm not adamant, it's just hilarious to watch someone who thinks they know how to play a mage fail so tremendously.

And I'm sure, the hundreds of the best theorycrafters in the world are wrong, and some scrub mage who can't kill Vezax is right.

What's the max dps you did on Brutallis? I bet it was less than mine, and I have the screenshot to prove it. Fail harder.

Next time you want to make a post about how "getting every bit of DPS out of your character is pretty important when learning new content" don't turn around and say "I don't care that my gem choices are bad, it's not a big enough difference."

Actually do, it gives me something to laugh at.

What a shock... Scrub mage doesnt post any information about his guild, but yet keeps talking like he knows what hes talking about. I think I speak for everyone that has read this thread by saying you sir are a moron, and please stop talking because you have no idea what you are talking about. Until you post something that gives you credit about who you are your a meaning less scrub that can't even kill Flame Leviathan. Good Day Sir.

[Indarys]

What a shock... Scrub mage doesnt post any information about his guild, but yet keeps talking like he knows what hes talking about. I think I speak for everyone that has read this thread by saying you sir are a moron, and please stop talking because you have no idea what you are talking about. Until you post something that gives you credit about who you are your a meaning less scrub that can't even kill Flame Leviathan. Good Day Sir.

You see, I don't need to post information about me to know I'm better than you. Hell, even if I couldn't look at your armory, I'd still know I'm a better mage than you just by your replies here.

But by all means, continue to fail. Either that, or post math and logic about how you're right. Oh wait, you can't do that, because you're wrong.

[Malice83]

And then you would die because blink was on cooldown when he spawned a death rune under it.

And warriors took Boar's speed because it was the best enchant. Most tanks I knew took it. An extra 3 stamina or run speed? Hmm, not really a hard choice.

I defend saying run speed, and range, is better than lolspirit because it is. You'd literally have to be braindead to not see how it is. In fact, my guild now requires all raiders to have a run speed enchant. Even running for a second every 10 seconds or so makes up for it. Razorscale is a perfect example--you need range on the adds constantly as the tank picks them up and drags them to you. Having Flamethrowing means you can start dps a good second earlier than you could otherwise. Obviously that makes up for the 0.8% crit from spirit, particularly as this is happening time and time again throughout the fight. What else is like this? XT, Hodir, Thorim, Freya, Mimiron, and Yogg. Over half the fights favor flamethrowing over spirit. Then there's fights where you not having range means you need to get in the clusterfuck that is >35 yards in. This causes raid dps loss as people have to spread out even further to avoid you. That's Iron Council, Vezax, and others I mentioned above. It shouldn't be that hard to see that the extra 70 dps (the same amount of extra dps that Emiex here is claiming "isn't worth it" on a topic he also claims to be a serious min-maxer) on a handful of fights isn't worth it.

Fights you spend more than 4 seconds running? Where run speed allows you to stop earlier and cast earlier, giving you a dps boost? Razor, XT, Kologarn, Iron Council, Thorim, Hodir, Vezax, Yogg, Freya, Mimiron...that's all of them besides Auriaya and Ignis, and there you might have to run depending on your strat. If you're going to waste blink everytime you want to move out of a void zone, by all means, have at it, waste the 600 mana and 1.5 seconds. I'll be using my run speed enchant to spend less time running away and more time dpsing, since I'll also be casting instants while I'm running, like hot streak pyro, living bomb, or if they're up, fireblast.

If you still want to try to claim that icewalker beats out run speed more often than the opposite, God help you. Have fun wiping on Mimiron.

Because he casts death runes from the start amirite? Death rune is on a timer anyway, l2 watch timers.

[Emiex]

You see, I don't need to post information about me to know I'm better than you. Hell, even if I couldn't look at your armory, I'd still know I'm a better mage than you just by your replies here.

But by all means, continue to fail. Either that, or post math and logic about how you're right. Oh wait, you can't do that, because you're wrong.

Glad to see no one agrees with you still, and the fact that you don't post your character just supports the fact that your trash. Please stop typing in this thread it is reserved for mages with a clue. Thx

[Indarys]

Glad to see no one agrees with you still, and the fact that you don't post your character just supports the fact that your trash. Please stop typing in this thread it is reserved for mages with a clue. Thx

Still waiting for you to reply to me with a logical rebuttal and not "LOL SHOW ARMORY NOOB".

Because he casts death runes from the start amirite? Death rune is on a timer anyway, l2 watch timers.

Right, so you're claiming that a death rune can never be put on top of a power rune 5-10 seconds after it spawns? lawl.

[Malice83]

Still waiting for you to reply to me with a logical rebuttal and not "LOL SHOW ARMORY NOOB".

Right, so you're claiming that a death rune can never be put on top of a power rune 5-10 seconds after it spawns? lawl.

You aren't even using correct math in your bad rants. 1.5 is not my gcd, it is 1.1. I can blink and 1.1 seconds later I am casting a Fireball. You can run for your 4 seconds but I will not be.

Also it is using common fucking sense dude. If a rune is going to be up in 5 seconds then you don't blink to the middle you run, if I have Fire Blast up, a Pyro, LB is going to need to be refreshed in 2 gcds, or you have 1 crit stacked then YES you run. Use some sense dude.

[whiskey_oktober]

putting run speed on your boots as a mage (in pve) is one of the dumbest thing ive ever heard.

[trangoul]

You can show all the theory you want about how run speed theoretically beats icewalker (and it actually does theoretically) but it doesnt in practice. you might save .1 seconds of run time if you stop at the exact instant you need to. But you wont. You will end up only saving maybe 20% of that added time to dps, which is not going to win out.

Now if you had a fight where 30 out of 60 seconds you were running. the speed would defiantely win out. But even with ulduar fights, the icewalker will MARGINALLY beat the runspeed.

[Malice83]

You can show all the theory you want about how run speed theoretically beats icewalker (and it actually does theoretically) but it doesnt in practice. you might save .1 seconds of run time if you stop at the exact instant you need to. But you wont. You will end up only saving maybe 20% of that added time to dps, which is not going to win out.

Now if you had a fight where 30 out of 60 seconds you were running. the speed would defiantely win out. But even with ulduar fights, the icewalker will MARGINALLY beat the runspeed.

Exactly. EJ is a great site but it is all theory crafting. Just like with arcane. Not anymore at least, but on paper it was the most dps, but that was assuming you didn't get hit with some sort of mana drain, evo didn't get interrupted, you have all BiS, you have a perfect rotation and don't ever make a mistake, etc etc. Actual Damage is much more important than a theory crafted DPS.

[Indarys]

You aren't even using correct math in your bad rants. 1.5 is not my gcd, it is 1.1. I can blink and 1.1 seconds later I am casting a Fireball. You can run for your 4 seconds but I will not be.

Also it is using common fucking sense dude. If a rune is going to be up in 5 seconds then you don't blink to the middle you run, if I have Fire Blast up, a Pyro, LB is going to need to be refreshed in 2 gcds, or you have 1 crit stacked then YES you run. Use some sense dude.

So, all you've managed to do is agree with me. I'm not sure where you got me running for 4 seconds, as that's an average time spent running a minute per fight to make run speed better than icewalker, not how long I'm going to take to run to a power rune, but whatever. So you've got a extremely situational example of where it's better to blink than run (long distance movement, with HS not up, with LB not needing to be refreshed. I'm not even counting fireblasting as that's always off cooldown and including it would just make you wrong all the time instead of most of the time). The rest its better to run, moving out of void zones, moving a few yards to an add, etc, and runspeed is better. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Yes, icewalker is situationally better than run speed, I've already said that. But there's more situations where run speed is better.

putting run speed on your boots as a mage (in pve) is one of the dumbest thing ive ever heard.

guess this mage is pretty dumb then

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...7Ganis&n=Manly

and ensida's mages too!

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...heridon&n=Ekye