Blood worms?

[Talamare]

Will of Necro is a great choice, except its too deep to get it... Same thing with Vampiric Blood

Mark of Blood is a great tool to keep tanks up, and I would never vote against it
Rune Tap I might vote against, but its a decent choice as well

Blood DPS ultimate question usually comes to the choice of "Which Trash talent to get?" Scent of Blood, Rune Tap, Blood Worms
Regardless you have 3 talent points to burn between those

Pick your trash, in the end it wont matter much

[rabbimojo]

Will of Necro is a great choice, except its too deep to get it... Same thing with Vampiric Blood
...
Blood DPS ultimate question usually comes to the choice of "Which Trash talent to get?" Scent of Blood, Rune Tap, Blood Worms
Regardless you have 3 talent points to burn between those

Pick your trash, in the end it wont matter much

I don't think you have to lose too much to pick up vamp blood, though I can see not picking it up. However, mark or rune tap vs worms? Maybe I'm just not giving the little guys their due, but it seems pretty genuinely useless.

Mostly, I was just ranting a bit about dpsers who can't seem to see past their recount window. :P
Maybe things will change when Uld hard modes are the normal discussion topic, and people are trying to figure out ways to game the rules more.

In any case, this poster's opinion is just that.

[Batsmuggler]

that crap about not taking blood worms and instead getting rune tap is bollox, if you're dpsing, you're in the raid to dps - you get more than enough self-healing and damage reduction, if you die something is going shit and you shouldn't hinder your dps to make up for your or other raid member's lack of skill

[Albert the fish]

because raid bosses in ulduar hit you for 25k while the worms heal you for about 200
usefull not?

then why do you take imp blood presence as a tank. after all it doesn't heal much as a tank, maybe a few hundred a hit. maybe.

blood worms dont heal a lot, they do heal some tho. bloodworms+imp blood pres+ds=rather more
Bloodworms+imp Blood Pres+ds+specced RT(free lock candy? no wai!)+occasional VB buffing all of that=a tank that can stay alive pretty damned well

[Heliades]

considering that blood tank's schtich is innate selfhealing and bloodworms are innateself heals...how is it useless to tanks?

They also die incredibly fast. Basically any aoe of any sort will kill them. They're hardly helpful. There's better places to put the points.

[TheDeathItself]

then why do you take imp blood presence as a tank. after all it doesn't heal much as a tank, maybe a few hundred a hit. maybe.

Never in my life have I seen a tank pick up Improved Blood Presence. Hell even I'm a blood tank and don't have it.

blood worms dont heal a lot, they do heal some tho. bloodworms+imp blood pres+ds=rather more
Bloodworms+imp Blood Pres+ds+specced RT(free lock candy? no wai!)+occasional VB buffing all of that=a tank that can stay alive pretty damned well

Picking all those things will just gimp you on other territories, like threat. Why would you even waste so many points for just a little more self healing? Frost and unholy don't have that and they do just fine.

[Doctor Hilarious]

Simbert, following your analogy, the conclusion seems to be that blood worms are as helpful as a level 70 healer casting on HoT on you at random points in the fight, with no regard to overhealing...
Following the comparison to Stamina, if you could get ~600 blood worms to follow you around, sure, that would be swell. Further more, if 1 Stamina = 10 health, you're doing something very wrong as a blood tank.

Now, sure, you're working toward the "when does it become a pile" argument, implicitly regarding disparate factors while explicitly citing identity sharing factors, so lets look at it your way...
24 stamina from a gem won't make a huge difference, but it does add up, and is nice, right? So there is no reason not to take it, right? Especially considering that 16 defense isn't that significant...
But what if taking that stamina gem over the defense gem makes you eat a crit, so that a fore mentioned 24k hit deals almost 50k?

Likewise with talents, if it doesn't pull its weight in as a survivability talent, a threat talent, or even when taken as hybrid, it's not worth taking, and if there are no points spent on it, then it serves no function, and, though you may see it differently, to me, something that serves no function can be fairly called useless.

[ulyssesric]

I've read this somewhere:

Attacks from bloodworms will get parried. And when the targets parry, their next normal attack swing time will be reduced, to a minimum of 25% of normal swing time. In other words, if you can't manage your bloodworms to attack from behind, you're in fact increasing the damage taken by tank.

[Radux]

bloodworms are 'ok' to level with, but as far as raiding/instancing, put the free points elsewhere. worms wipe raids.

[Amphrodos]

personally, i dont find blood worms worth the points. sudden doom, vendetta, veteran of the third war, spell deflection, take ur pick, their all better, but this is comming from a bg crazy blood with all these who likes rapid raping, fyi. Blood worms dont do crap compaired to any of these in pvp, especially since u proc them half way thru a fight and when ur done they just follow u while u find a new victim, and iv throughly tested it.

[Nyanmaru]

I've read this somewhere:

Attacks from bloodworms will get parried. And when the targets parry, their next normal attack swing time will be reduced, to a minimum of 25% of normal swing time. In other words, if you can't manage your bloodworms to attack from behind, you're in fact increasing the damage taken by tank.

^--- This.

The Bloodworms spawn left and right and behind the DK that procs them, the DpS usually is found behind the boss, so no problem here. The tank however, usually stands in front of the boss, thus having the worms fight it from the front. They are "Guardians" and not "Pets" so they tend to just run to the mob and smash it, no matter if they are in front or behind of it.

Bloodworms are a nice way for pallies to push some HpS number, they proc SoL and gain heals of Glyph of Holy Light and Divine Storm.

Sometimes, worms even cause a boss to change his position, trivial in some fights, but may cause a whipe if something like Sartharion decides to dance araound you...

[Talamare]

Sometimes, worms even cause a boss to change his position, trivial in some fights, but may cause a whipe if something like Sartharion decides to dance araound you...

No...
They dont have a taunt and stand next to you, so only ways it can happen is if a 1dps out threats you or the boss casts a spell directly on the worm, in which case I prefer a worm taking that spell then the raid


Does anyone "Seriously" know if any owner stat affects the worm, btw dont respond to this unless you seen some specific test... I dont want to hear "I dont -THINK- they get anything"

[Mothhive]

Well, I've never done any Blood Worm scaling tests, but self buffed on the Boss Dummy their DPS was around 70, but in a 25 man raid, their DPS goes up to around 100. Not exactly a conclusive result, but it does seem to suggest that they do gain something from your stats.

[Voix]

Alrighty lets throw some stats in blood worms vs Rune tap

Worms:

Here is some stats from yesterdays WWS in ulduar from my guild. (auraiya wiping + Iron assembley kill)

blood worms 3/3.

Average Heal all night on full report from a single bloodworm with no improved blood presence: 196
Average hit all night on full report from a single bloodworm: 83
Blood worm attack speed is: 2.0
Last 20 seconds.

Remember 2 of the worms spawn at lowest and 4 at max, but i tend to see 3-4 most.

So from 2 worms thats 396 hp every 2 seconds (148 HPS) which in 20 seconds totals to 2960 and 792 hp from 4 every 2 seconds. (396 hps). Which in 20 seconds totals to 7920 hp
And with 2 worms thats 166 dmg evey 2 seconds (83 dps) and 332 dmg from 4 every 2 seconds (166 dps).

Infringements from worms: Its a proc, so its not guranteed HP, Die from AOE easily.
Bonuses: 83 dps-166 dps + 148 HPS-396 HPS, Proc often (9% proc).

Rune tap:

note: It would be 1/1 rune tap with 3/3 improved, i cba to 2/3, so lets say i pull the talent point from somewhere else.

So as i did worms stats as if i was in a raid i will do rune tap the same.

My hp currently unbuffed is: 20421
And buffed its about 27k.

So every 30 seconds improved Rune tap heals me for 5.4k.

Infringements: Blood rune used to activate - talent doesnt provide any DPS.
Bonuses: Use it when i want/need it.

In the long run Rune tap is only better than blood worms for healing If you have it improved, and most of us would only have it 2/3 and i dont think that will be superior, because it has a longer CD and it heals you for less, about 4k-4.5k for me. It means you lose DPS when it comes to your rotation, but you could argue, what good is your rotation when this is the difference between survival and death, the talent its self doesnt doesnt provide any DPS at all where as the worms do.

It comes to down to the player mostly, do you want more control over your hp at the expense of a little DPS, or would you prefer to have a reliable proc which gives you hps overtime, is factored by how many worms you get off that proc. Its like some players prefer an activated trinkit as opposed to a proc trinkit.

As a ulduar raiding DK, i prefer the worms, because normally if i die, healers are dead and its going to be a wipe, i like how my worms combined with blood presence and deathstrike, provide so much constant self healing. On XT-002, we have one of our pallys judge light to, with all these combined, i come out of tantrums with 60-80% without a heal, hell a quick HOT off a druid/priest is enough to keep me going should i find myself in trouble as the light bomb, im a herbalist too so ive also got lifeblood for another self HOT. I dont think blood worms are intended to be designed as a "lone" used thing but rather they tie in with other talents, sure there not the best talent but there dps.

[Albert the fish]

Alrighty lets throw some stats in blood worms vs Rune tap

Worms:

Here is some stats from yesterdays WWS in ulduar from my guild. (auraiya wiping + Iron assembley kill)

blood worms 3/3.

Average Heal all night on full report from a single bloodworm with no improved blood presence: 196
Average hit all night on full report from a single bloodworm: 83
Blood worm attack speed is: 2.0
Last 20 seconds.

Remember 2 of the worms spawn at lowest and 4 at max, but i tend to see 3-4 most.

So from 2 worms thats 396 hp every 2 seconds (148 HPS) which in 20 seconds totals to 2960 and 792 hp from 4 every 2 seconds. (396 hps). Which in 20 seconds totals to 7920 hp
And with 2 worms thats 166 dmg evey 2 seconds (83 dps) and 332 dmg from 4 every 2 seconds (166 dps).

Infringements from worms: Its a proc, so its not guranteed HP, Die from AOE easily.
Bonuses: 83 dps-166 dps + 148 HPS-396 HPS, Proc often (9% proc).

Rune tap:

note: It would be 1/1 rune tap with 3/3 improved, i cba to 2/3, so lets say i pull the talent point from somewhere else.

So as i did worms stats as if i was in a raid i will do rune tap the same.

My hp currently unbuffed is: 20421
And buffed its about 27k.

So every 30 seconds improved Rune tap heals me for 5.4k.

Infringements: Blood rune used to activate - talent doesnt provide any DPS.
Bonuses: Use it when i want/need it.

In the long run Rune tap is only better than blood worms for healing If you have it improved, and most of us would only have it 2/3 and i dont think that will be superior, because it has a longer CD and it heals you for less, about 4k-4.5k for me. It means you lose DPS when it comes to your rotation, but you could argue, what good is your rotation when this is the difference between survival and death, the talent its self doesnt doesnt provide any DPS at all where as the worms do.

It comes to down to the player mostly, do you want more control over your hp at the expense of a little DPS, or would you prefer to have a reliable proc which gives you hps overtime, is factored by how many worms you get off that proc. Its like some players prefer an activated trinkit as opposed to a proc trinkit.

As a ulduar raiding DK, i prefer the worms, because normally if i die, healers are dead and its going to be a wipe, i like how my worms combined with blood presence and deathstrike, provide so much constant self healing. On XT-002, we have one of our pallys judge light to, with all these combined, i come out of tantrums with 60-80% without a heal, hell a quick HOT off a druid/priest is enough to keep me going should i find myself in trouble as the light bomb, im a herbalist too so ive also got lifeblood for another self HOT. I dont think blood worms are intended to be designed as a "lone" used thing but rather they tie in with other talents, sure there not the best talent but there dps.

dear god, did someone understand blizzard's intent with blood spec? im shocked

[Amphrodos]

rediculous

For pvp its no where near relaible as it usually procs halfway thru a fight at an unreliable rate and the fight never lasts 20secs to get the full benefit out of them.

For a raid dps an addition ov 100 dps out of 2-4k is 2.5-5% increase on an unreliable proc is not a good use of talent points.

Finally, for a tank, the healing is negligble, and the points would be better spent in imp blood presence if ur already that high up, since it would heal you depending on how much damage you do while ur in frost presence. if ur doing 2k-4k dps, thats about 80-160 heals per sec, much more reliable than the 200 ticks of blood worms.

[Talamare]

It seems like it should probably be mandatory for raid dps

Yes its a proc, but it is rather reliable, it usually procs on cooldown almost

Its a dps increase with no cost other then talents, which we need to waste 3 anyways

[Amphrodos]

until i see some harder evidence than "where else am i gona spend the points" and "hey, its dps, even if its small" it is still not the best choice. iv actually tested this in pvp, and it is not the best, taking vendetta, vet of third war, even spell deflect will result in much more survivability. as before, pve might be different. its a 9% proc on specific attacks(unreliable), is killable, gives little damage, little healing, requires 3 talent points, has all the earmarks of a bad choice.

[Albert the fish]

until i see some harder evidence than "where else am i gona spend the points" and "hey, its dps, even if its small" it is still not the best choice. iv actually tested this in pvp, and it is not the best, taking vendetta, vet of third war, even spell deflect will result in much more survivability. as before, pve might be different. its a 9% proc on specific attacks(unreliable), is killable, gives little damage, little healing, requires 3 talent points, has all the earmarks of a bad choice.

only if you are taking it by itself.

it's not a powerful ability by itself. it is however useful in conjunction with other abilities. Blood worms are usualy up when it's maxed. and having Imp Blood Pres and Blood Worms both going while you're tanking makes healing much easier on the healers, making you last longer as a tank. since you are already a blood tank so stack stamina moreso then avoidance, what's the issue here? you want even more threat? you have more single target threat than any tank in game as a blood dk. it'll be ok.

[Talamare]

until i see some harder evidence than "where else am i gona spend the points" and "hey, its dps, even if its small" it is still not the best choice. iv actually tested this in pvp, and it is not the best, taking vendetta, vet of third war, even spell deflect will result in much more survivability. as before, pve might be different. its a 9% proc on specific attacks(unreliable), is killable, gives little damage, little healing, requires 3 talent points, has all the earmarks of a bad choice.

ok ok no pvp shoo

and i think Voix did provide numbers...

Its +100 dps for 3 talent points, thats a pretty powerful talent