Thread: PTR Patch 3.1.2 - Ulduar Changes

This should silence all the "Blizz doesn't know how to make Sunwell level difficulty encounters anymore." folks. Ironically, a while before the cry was "OMG look at Ensidia racing through content, gg Blizz!". Now it's "OMG even Ensidia can't do it, it's too HARD!"

That is amusing.

That sucks tbh. Everything easy again.. At least Algalon is buffed

Originally Posted by overneathe

Mimiron's mines couldn't oneshot me anyways. My HP (hunter) was 27k raid buffed. And going to a mine without dying doesn't mean you don't fail.
Also, all normal modes are getting nerfed (except Freya) and all hard modes are getting buffed. Including Algalon.
I don't see anything to complain about. Lame guilds can see Ulduar fine. Good guilds will struggle being good.

Lame guilds? Like the one you're in or could you define lame.

Originally Posted by gilfanon

You need to go back and re-read what Blizzard said. They said it was going to be harder than Naxx. It is. They said it wasn't going to be 'that much' harder than Naxx. Turned out the difficulty differential was higher than they wanted, so they changed it to be like they said. Anyone saying that Ulduar, even post-nerfs, is as easy as Naxx is on crack. My old 25 man cleared Naxx in 3 raids the first time we went in, and nobody had been in Naxx60. There were about 3 fights in Naxx that required any kind of L2Move/coordination. If you're claiming that Ulduar has been made that easy then you're deluded. It's more difficult, it's just not a step up from Naxx to SWP level difficulty. If you want that step up, farm the 'ezmode' for a few weeks and then try Hard Modes. Or, as an earlier poster pointed out, there are plenty of medium modes for you to try.

Blizzard have done exactly what they said they would, and they've given everyone the option to push themselves based on their appetite for a challenge, and yet still the whiny little biatches on these forums are unsatisfied...

Thank you, well said.

Originally Posted by gilfanon

My old 25 man cleared Naxx in 3 raids the first time we went in, and nobody had been in Naxx60.

Originally Posted by gilfanon

and nobody had been in Naxx60.

Originally Posted by gilfanon

Naxx60.

I think they're being too kneejerk with these nerfs, some of the thrash which required you to have pull tactics is already back to the roundemup and aoe again. Hmm maybe we should have hardmode trash also to keep everybody happy.

Originally Posted by tyranous

That sucks tbh. Everything easy again.. At least Algalon is buffed

I think this is a primary example of our playerbase...

The odds are that this guy hasnt even cleared ulduar, let alone the hard-modes to see algalon.

So to put it bluntly, why the fuck do people like you even have an opinion on the subject?

It bring me back to the eyonix posts when 3.1 was released and shortly after...

People just like to jump on the QQ bandwagon, no matter what it's about or whether they have any experience with it at all.

The people who will be most pissed off by the nerf will be the guilds, like mine, who are in the middle of ulduar progression and wanted to keep the challenge.

I suppose it's a case of 'whatif' When we do get to our progression kill on boss X, we'll end up thinking to ourselves.. would we have done it pre-nerfs?

The progression kill is what people care about, not the farming... farming is farming. Hard modes are looking to be the next progression kills, despite being the same bosses, as they havent been done before in that way.

Would you say that OS+3D was shit because it was just the same as OS+0D except with more spells?

As I said earlier.. if people are doing hard-modes in mostly noxxromulus gear, then when people are fully ulduar geared it will be just too easy and people will whine "ZOMG BLIZZARD I THOGUHT HARDMODES WERE HARD, WE AMS ONE SHOTTING THEM, YOU ARE FAIL!!!!!1111"

Some of you whiners need to grow up and get a fucking clue.

I'm not in an overly progressed guild, but seeing some of these nerfs to bosses i've fought seem a little overboard. The fights aren't hard, you just need to work at them.

A little upsetting, I hope Icecrown and beyond aren't like this.

If people would just learn to play the game well and not suck the current version of Ulduar wouldn't be all that bad, so progression would take as long as it did back in the old days. Who cares so you spend a whole night or even week attempting a new boss because 1-2 people in your raid is retarded.... find someone to replace them. Repair bills are to much for you? do a few dailies before your raid and a few after they only take 1-2hours tops to have enough gold for repairs.

My guild is currently working on Auriaya, we just downed Kologarn last night, after 2 full raid days of wipeing on him because people didn't understand the fight. Lucky for half of my guild I am not the guild master or raid leader because I would just kick half of them and pick up some more competent players.

But really its fine Nerf 10man so that people see the content but don't nerf 25man also... Let it still be a challenge to down these bosses, Just because Blizz F***ed up big time by making Naxx so easy that doesn't mean that makeing the next instance acctually a challenge is a problem...

Im done and just sick of people that want to run 25man raids but can't simply pay attention for the 2-2 1/2 hours that my guild raids 3 nights a week... People are retarded end of story (don't everyone take offense to that if your good you know you are good, and if your not good well then deal with it or GET BETTER)

Originally Posted by xrawralot

If people would just learn to play the game well and not suck the current version of Ulduar wouldn't be all that bad, so progression would take as long as it did back in the old days. Who cares so you spend a whole night or even week attempting a new boss because 1-2 people in your raid is retarded.... find someone to replace them. Repair bills are to much for you? do a few dailies before your raid and a few after they only take 1-2hours tops to have enough gold for repairs.

My guild is currently working on Auriaya, we just downed Kologarn last night, after 2 full raid days of wipeing on him because people didn't understand the fight. Lucky for half of my guild I am not the guild master or raid leader because I would just kick half of them and pick up some more competent players.

But really its fine Nerf 10man so that people see the content but don't nerf 25man also... Let it still be a challenge to down these bosses, Just because Blizz F***ed up big time by making Naxx so easy that doesn't mean that makeing the next instance acctually a challenge is a problem...

Im done and just sick of people that want to run 25man raids but can't simply pay attention for the 2-2 1/2 hours that my guild raids 3 nights a week... People are retarded end of story (don't everyone take offense to that if your good you know you are good, and if your not good well then deal with it or GET BETTER)

I'd like to quote this but make one small change... it's not people sucking that's the problem... it's people whining when they suck because they don't have the patience or want to put the effort in to progress..

To all Whiners, First Everyone can not do everything all the time, that is something that should stand allways!
Second there is a huge point that u have to know about wow, u have to find your place in the game where u fit into. Back in the day near the end of Vanilla wow u had 4 tiers where u could easy find your place, U had to advance through all of them most of the time to get to your Max potentional. If you could not handle AQ40 for example then u wore stuck @ BWL and below, same went for naxx and even BWL.
Exact the same thing should apply in WOTLK where u have to find your own place in the game. If u suck then u should not raid basicly or u will be stuck in the begining. If u are avrage player with avrage skill then u shuold be able to clear the isntance on normal mode In time. And if u are exceptional player u Should be able to clear hardmodes in Time.
Time is the thing that ppl today dont seams to care about, they want to go from A to Y without passing through the entire Alphabet in steps that should be done. You Advance though the Game nothing else.
My end point be, If u suck then u should NOT be able to do hard modes just because u suck thats it. If u want to become a better player fight for it and u might will be and u can Advance through the game as u wore supposed to. I find it Good that Blizzard buffs the Hard modes because that seperates the sissies from the real Pro players. To All players, If u want to do hard modes then u Have to advance though them, U cant jump over skill, gear and strategies you Have to advance though All of them!

this will be long and because of that, and according to the Rules of Internet Discussion, it will be ignored but I'll post it anyways.

I'm going to address arguments from a both sides because quite frankly, you're ALL acting immaturely and more importantly, you're making poor and invalid points.

The Difficulty
Ulduar was designed to be "Harder than Naxx." Please read that statement again carefully. If you can't read back I will post it again, Ulduar was designed to be "Harder than Naxx." What this means is that on a difficulty scale from 1-10 (1 being easy and 10 being Stupid Hard) Ulduar was designed to score higher than whatever score Naxx had. So, for example if Naxx was a 3 this means that Ulduar will be higher than a 3. This does not mean that Ulduar will be a 10, it simply means that the difficulty from Naxx to Ulduar has been upped. Simply because you feel it isn't hard enough is irrelevant. It IS harder, and Blizzard DID fulfill their promise.

PUGs
After reading about the nerfs, I've seen post after post of people lamenting the "fact" that Ulduar will now be pugable by anyone and their dog, and epic lootz will fall upon players like a light spring rain. Please tell me then, good sirs, of the successes that PUGs are having on your servers. Please describe to me the downing after downing of bosses by a cobbled together group of often vent-less, DBM-lacking players. Please tell me you see in Trade Channel advertisements for PUGs asking for "two more healers, 25 man PUG Ulduar on Mimiron can summon" or even "need one more tank for Thorim, PST." Have you? I haven't. I haven't heard of anyone else who has either. You're simply making this up under an assumption based on the simple fact that these new numbers are smaller than the old numbers. On my own server (US Kel'Thuzad) I have seen only ONE PUG group advertised weekly, and that was for nothing more than a quick 25 man Flame Leviathan kill for loot. I have not heard of or seen a 25 man group farther than that. Your baseless claims are not helping your argument. Come back with supporting evidence or don't come back at all.

(PS. Please note I'm only speaking about 25 mans here, I have seen 10 man PUGs running but since I do not know how far they get on average I cannot comment on them)

"Go do Hard Mode lol"
Go away. In the interest of politeness I think I will be a bit more detailed: Please go away. I have no proof, but I am fairly positive that these comments are all coming from players who have either never seen these bosses in Ulduar they're talking about, have ever even read what they're like on Hard Mode, or both. But in the interest of fairness, fine, let's "go do hard mode." Let's take a look at Hodir, shall we? Hodir Hard Mode requires an average of 12,000 DPS from every single player to do it. This is also if you only take in ONE tank and TWO healers. Have you done Hodir? Have you seen the healing required? Have you seen the movement that is required on the DPS? Do you honestly believe that T8 will allow that kind of DPS from your classes even with hard effort? Ensidia just recently killed Hodir Hard mode and the only way they did it was by a glitch/work-around and even WITH the help of this glitch (quickly hot-fixed) they were .03 seconds away from not getting it.
"Go do hard mode?" No. You don't know what you're talking about. Go do your own "hard mode" by going away and not coming back until you have something constructive.

The Nerfs
This is a tough issue because there are no doubt things we're not considering. Take, for example, the difficulty change of Naxx10 to Ulduar10. Now, when I went with my guild to rest run Ulduar10 we didn't have any difficulty with the few (non-bugged at the time) fights. Keep in mind, we were also BiS Naxx25, which makes quite a difference. For those coming into Ulduar10 with Naxx10 gear, the steep damage, dps and healing requirements might be a little too much. With that in mind, I can easily understand and agree with the nerfs done to the bosses in the 10 man content. HOWEVER I think I find myself in agreement with most of my other raiders here that the nerfs to the 25 man content are unwarranted. Razorscale isn't difficult because his fire hurt badly, he is difficult because people stand in it. XT's isn't hard because his enrage timer is too short or his Light bomb radius is too large, he is hard because your DPS isn't doing their job stopping the bots from repairing him or stupid people aren't running away when they get the bomb. Kologran isn't hard because his eyebeams hit for a lot, he's hard because morons don't move away from it. Mimiron isn't hard because....okay actually I take that back, Mimiron is actually kind of a pain in the ass. :-X
But you get my point. The difficulty of these bosses is not relative to the damage they do or the healing they require, these bosses are all difficult because the level of coordination their mechanics demand is beyond that of the casual or really crappy player. I'm sorry Blizzard. I know you work hard on this content and want everyone to see the hard work and effort your creative staff have put into it, but I think I speak for many of the other player base when I say that 1.5k DPS rogues who stand in fire...honestly don't deserve to see it.

That took longer than I thought. /endrant :-X

Originally Posted by Aleom

I'm sorry Blizzard. I know you work hard on this content and want everyone to see the hard work and effort your creative staff have put into it, but I think I speak for many of the other player base when I say that 1.5k DPS rogues who stand in fire...honestly don't deserve to see it.

Awesome post and well said from both sides of the coin.

What was the point of buffing Algalon's damage on his abilities? They already one shot.

I agree, by and large, with Aleom's post.

However, I think what drives a lot of the QQ here is that difficulty is terribly subjective.

Clearly, Blizzard intended on there being a clear path of 'progression' of sorts for the normals, but the problem is that it's all been muddled by how damned easy Naxx 25 was.

If it's Blizzard's intention to have a clear Naxx 10 -> Uld 10 progression path, which it clearly is, the problem is that people who did regular PUG runs of Naxx 25 and have mostly item level 213 gear will be able to just roll into Uld 10 and probably get all the way to Mimiron before they actually hit a challenge. And since most of their gear will be 213, not 226, most of the Uld10 gear will be minor upgrades to let them push into Uld25.

I don't know how I feel about that. Sure, it'll open options for my tankadin alt who is in mostly 213 gear with a smattering of 200 gear here and there but I was up to Uld10 Mimiron on my tankadin in this gear anyway.

I do agree that the nerfs to Normal Uld 25 are unjustified. Those encounters are easily doable for 25 man raid groups wearing full 25 man Naxx gear. So the progression is already there and solid.

Finding 25 people to do a PUG run has never really been a 'challenge', regardless what Zharym says. And even if post-nerf 25 Ulduar PUGs hit a brick wall around Iron Council or Hodir, that's still a fair amount of loot upgrades per week. 25 is fine as it is, imo. It's 10, alone, that's way overtuned. By nerfing both, it just ensures that 25 Normal Ulduar will end up being mostly PUGable once people are decked out in 219 gear.