My response to those supporting "easy mode" nerfs.

[RWeber]

First of all, if everything was so "perfect" in TBC and SWP or even in vanilla, why did Blizzard change the system to what it is now? Just to get some ppls bloodpressure up?

Great question. I wish I knew the answer. There was no reason at all to go through such a huge change in the raiding system. Sure there were problems, but the incremental changes they made along the way in TBC were getting them close to a damn near perfect raiding game. My best guess is that they wanted to try something new in order to keep "innovating" or whatever, but are refusing to accept that it didn't work.

RL Example: I admire the marathon champions who can run 42 km in 2 hours. I envy them and I am amazed at their achievement. ... blah blah blah ...

I wish people would just make their points clearly and coherently without concocting weird (and typically faulty) analogies that do nothing to advance the argument.

Why is it your concern (you as in ppl complaining about nerfs) that other people get to see with less skill things like you? ... Let them..who cares. Why be envious that others have fun too?

Not sure who you're arguing with here. The number of people that complain about what other people are seeing or doing is very small. I certainly couldn't care less, except to say that I think everyone should have some content they enjoy. In fact, the people you mostly hear complaining are the bads who can't stand that people who put in more effort and are more skilled progress further in the game.

The core problem is that the new raiding system designed to let "everyone experience the content" has killed many aspects of the raiding game that I found enjoyable.

[jpwkeeper]

Sure there were problems, but the incremental changes they made along the way in TBC were getting them close to a damn near perfect raiding game.

This is interesting, because this may be the key to each side understanding the other (we think we do now but we don't).

I think a lot of people don't realize exactly how frustrated a lot of us were in TBC.

You experienced The Eye, Serpentshrine Cavern, Black Temple, Mount Hyjal, and Sunwell Plateau. I did Karazhan and Zul'Aman for months with no hope of ever seeing anything else. I read article after article about the awesomely cool bosses in those places and dreamed about what it would be like to do them.

Go to a different guild? By that time nobody was looking for someone in T4 that they had to gear up; they were looking for people who could hit the ground running because there was so little time left.

And when October came and the expansion was imminent, I was angry because I knew that as soon as that patch hit, all of those mythical places would become irrelevant. Others argued that they wouldn't, but they were wrong.

Now in LK there were 3 raids. Which raid would have been the "Casual" raid and which would have been for the "Hardcore"? Maybe Naxx would have been 10 man only and Maly and OS would have been hardcore? Oh, that would have gone over well. Maybe there was another smaller raid somewhere for the casuals and Naxx would have only been 25 man?

That leaves the 90% group either killing the same bosses night after endless night or doing dailies.

Unlike TBC and Vanilla, Blizzard has real competition now. If they had done this, Age of Conan may not have failed. If I could never run Naxx or Ulduar, I guarantee I would not be playing the game today.

[WernerCD]

You... haven't cleared Ulduar and you're complaining that it's too easy.

That's all that needs to be said.

Cry about it being too easy... and yet you haven't cleared it - on "easy" mode? Even easy mode is harder than Naxx. Granted, some of the bosses are now *ALOT* easier post nerfs, they still require alot more coordination to get done.

And whether or not *YOU* think Hard-Modes are new content... Blizzard is betting the farm that hard modes *ARE* new content...

OS and OS3D are two different fights.

[Aniza]

Completely false.

I'd like to see a PUG get past Deconstructor.

My response to the OP: You are an idiot.

I've pugged Mimiron 25 man... The same pug is currently having Yogg Saron in phase 3 the other night...

This "game" is fucking sad nowadays, everyone can have their shinies through the VoA epic lottery! Everyone are strong enough to participate in Kirin Tor's siege against the horrors of Ulduar!

Everyone are... what? When did the fun end? When WotLK launched and Ghostcrawler took over.

__
Another point I have; is it logical to down a already defeated boss in a different way which requires you to invest days and days into wiping on it - to get 10 achivement points which no one really cares about and some extra minor upgrade epics? Which by the way will be avalible in the same iLVL with a different name in the EASY Icecrown Citadel.

Aniza signing out, Ghostcrawler you fucking suck at "developing" WoW. It's not even a MMORPG any more, it's some kind of family fun-for-all lottery yada yada.

[RWeber]

You experienced The Eye, Serpentshrine Cavern, Black Temple, Mount Hyjal, and Sunwell Plateau. I did Karazhan and Zul'Aman for months with no hope of ever seeing anything else. I read article after article about the awesomely cool bosses in those places and dreamed about what it would be like to do them.

It's true that I experienced all the raid content from Kara to Sunwell, but it's equally true that I spent months going from one disbanding Kara guild to another (about 4 of them) until I found a successful one. And to be honest, those Kara guilds deserved to fail. They were unorganized, preoccupied with things like loot and run by egoistic kids. Tuning the content so that those types of guilds can succeed is a road to ruin for this game.

Go to a different guild? By that time nobody was looking for someone in T4 that they had to gear up; they were looking for people who could hit the ground running because there was so little time left.

At least my guild kept recruiting people with pvp+crafted+badge gear through the whole expansion. If the player is skilled and has gotten the best gear available outside of raids, then gearing them up is a trivial concern (two or three farm raids and they're set).

Guilds that are far along in the progression need to keep recruiting just like every other guild due to normal member turnover. However, there just aren't highly geared non-guilded players running around waiting to be recruited, so you're stuck recruiting less geared people anyway.

[Aniza]

So you pugged the game to Yogg P3. But why are you unhappy about it? Would you be happier in an elite guild that did their best but the game is so effing hard that you still wipe on the third boss after 4 months?

Let us know what server you are on, because if it is possible to PuG Yogg to P3, I am sure this is some uber-Magtheridon-EU and every other guild wants to be Ensidia. You must be awash in epicness and Algalon is being killed left and right.

Sorry, but I don't get your state of mind. There must be a game out there that makes you happier and costs less per month?

Oh..and you guys just need somebody to pour your hate over. Yesterdays Kalgan is todays Ghostcrawler. No wonder the game is in such a state, since apparently one guy does it all. Just hope he reads this forum too and benefits from your pearls of wisdom...

I'm Aniza on Frostmane EU <Crimson Fellas Utd>.

I've done a lot of hardcore PvE in my days and gosh I'm waiting for Aion. I've also cleared Ulduar in 25 man with guildrun and I wasn't satisfied.

[Wani]

I've also cleared Ulduar in 25 man

Well, you did choose to play in easy mode, of course the game became easy. Easy modes are just this ; a way for people to gain epics easily. I can guarantee you'd feel right back in sunwell if you were only attempting the hard modes.

[ChaosEater]

Here is an argument I see come up frequently.

Why don't you just do the hard modes if you want a challenge?

Because I want the normal versions to be a challenge. I have only killed 3 bosses in Ulduar, and I have no interest in continuing if the bare minimum is easy.

What these nerfs essentially have done is lower the amount of skill needed to see new content.

I have a perspective about these that i do not see brought up much. People like to complain about which type of player 25man Ulduar belongs to. I say belong because when its talked about it generally is made to seem that way. What i don't see brought up much is the fact that 10man Ulduar exists. In my opinion 10man Ulduar is for the people who want to experience the raid zone/bosses/lore and other raid things that arent related to difficulty. Hard mode 25man Ulduar was for the elite players who wanted difficult bosses that rewarded the raid with appropriate loot/status. This left normal 25man Ulduar for the people who wanted a raiding environment that provided a challenging experience, not an overly leet experience but just challenging. However, the many changes to the normal mode 25man bosses have drastically changed that. In essence now there is a 10man Ulduar, a 25man ulduar that is the same difficulty as 10man but with more people (can't say otherwise cause there was even a blue post from Blizz few weeks ago saying they are trying to reduce the difficulty difference between 10man and 25man as much as possible), and a extremely difficult set of bosses for the over achievers. I feel that when Ulduar came out it was a perfect raid zone, it was accessable by all and at the same time for everybody who wanted it. Now there is no room for middle ground so forums are plagued by this constant arguing over who it should be for.

[dsswoosh]

What these nerfs essentially have done is lower the amount of skill needed to see new content.

This.
It's the sole reason there are fewer guilds than ever before interested in completing hard content of the game.

Ive been hardcore forever, and even im thinking whats the point in doing hard modes when you get to see all content in easy mode.

Many previous hardcore guilds are all thinking the same. I dont think anyone lower than world 40th or 50th atm in WoW is as hardcore as they used to be.

[Crispin]

So normal mode is too easy (obviously when you've downed 3 bosses) and hardmode is too hard?

Look, making bosses easier aint a gift to retards, alot of people forget that this game is years old, and people like myself who raided MC for a whole day 2 months after the game was released, can't spend that much time on it anymore, if you had any idea of how many hours were put into raiding back then you'd be crying for nerfs yourself.


Now that I'm a casual (don't hurt me), I do applaud the nerfs here and there tbh, because i don't have a whole day to lean a boss, let alone weeks.


You're saying that hard modes are... too hard, dude how long do you think it took guilds to down Kael? I'm pretty sure that most guilds, if they had the time for it could do hard modes, but I'm personally sick of running my head into a wall for 2 weeks on a boss.


Hard modes arent any different than old end raid content, it took alot of time to get it right, today you get the option to do it the easier way, which honestly works alot better when you've got 3 hours 2 days a week to raid, if i had as much time as i did back then, i would be doing hard modes.


And seriously, complain when you've finished it on normal, there's still some challenges on the later bosses.

[Gron]

Ulduar is likely where Blizzard devs have been seriously fighting with each other on "what to give". I am talking about 25 man ofc.

Flame Leviathan is a joke like all of Naxxramas - you are not proudly wearing those purple items and you had to do nothing to get it.

Antechamber's bossess have been nerfed, but they are a bit harder than rest of Naxx... can prove to be a challenge for starter guilds, who got used to easy mode bossess.

Keepers of Ulduar are all a bit harder than Antechamber, but not overly complex, with Mimron putting up a very memorable encounter - so far, the first boss that might be talked about even after WOTLK ends (note how many times Kael or other bossess are mentioned - they had style, they were very hard, and you felt proud to down them - and they are still being talked about, compared to the easy bossess of BC or Vanilla).

Descent into madness is where it all gets harder - especially Yoggy being a boss that is very hard to down due to the complexity of the fight. Here, many guilds are struggling.

The hardmodes are good, give good challenge for most.

So all in all, this one instance seems to deliver free boss for lazy people (Leviathan) and multiple challenge levels - I think its great! People who love to raid were crying when they saw Leviathan (on paper it looked such an interesting encounter) but was so easy it was a shame - however the rest of the instnace is good, and I hope Blizzard will just build on this style of raiding, maybe even upping the challenges in the next patch, rather than doing a new Naxxramas horrible raid.

[Deathcold]

Does anyone here, never watched someone else video or guide to deafeat a new boss? If you always do your own strategy, analysing the combat log over and over after inumerous wipes, like really top end guilds do, you can say this game is easy.
Ok, i just excluded 99% of wow players (including myself) the right to say Ulduar is easy.