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  1. #841
    a 4-8% loss in DPS is huge, and there is really nothing more to say about that.
    TOTALLY ABSOLUTELY AMAZINGLY WRONG!

    There is a great deal to say about that, so lets put that into context.

    Damage against Marrowgar, average of 50 guilds fights (that went on to kill the Lich King) in the last two weeks:
    Code:
    			Average		StdDev
    Warrior	Fury    	14,955		  928
    Rogue 	Combat 		14,771		1,072
    Mage 	Fire 		13,795		  854
    Rogue 	Assn 		13,783		  445
    Paladin Ret 		13,516		  705
    Druid 	Feral 		13,377		  776
    Mage 	Arcane 		13,247		  833
    Hunter 	Marks 		13,147		  454
    Warlock Affl 		13,075		  804
    DK 	Frost 		12,912		  776
    Warlock Dem 		12,896		  625
    Shaman 	Enh 		12,888		  628
    DK 	Unholy 		12,853		  668
    Druid 	Balance 	12,823		  381
    Shaman 	Elem		12,759      	  440
    Priest 	Shadow     	12,646		  703
    Warlock Destruct 	12,307		  630
    Hunter 	Survival 	11,721		  492
    Warrior Arms 		11,659		  567
    DK 	Blood 		11,657		  777
    			------ 		-----
    			13,039		  678





    For a feral druid, a 5% loss in DPS is a 670 DPS loss; less than the standard deviation of druid DPS. It is not a completely trivial loss, but you wouldn't be able to detect it without averaging it across multiple fights and doing some statistical analysis.

    That DPS loss is 40% of the DPS loss you take by bringing a feral druid instead of a combat rogue or fury warrior. The DPS loss we are talking about is a significantly smaller than a gap that raids already accept for bringing hybrids.

    With the DPS loss we are talking about, a feral would do average damage on par with demonology warlocks, enhancement shaman, unholy DKS, balance druids, elemental shamans and shadow priests. Which is to say, you are doing DPS competitive with the bulk of the DPS on a raid.

    You are also somewhat better off than survival hunters, arms warriors, blood DKs ... and not even mentioning the absolute foolishness of bringing a BM hunter, frost mage, or subtlety rogue along (although many guilds do, and somehow manage to progress just fine!)

    So, to come back to the point.

    The loss is not 'huge'; it is a loss you should feel rather comfortable with. It is a loss to be sure, and if you are 100% focused on DPS, probably not worth paying. On the other hand, if you were trying to decide whether to swap to your 100% boomkin DPS off-spec, knowing that you can do the same damage as a feral in your tanking spec is a very valuable thing to know.

    You expect some loss for having a more flexible spec. You are not going to be able to do everything as well as a highly focused specialist. You need to decide whether the loss of DPS is worth the flexibility.

    From a tanking point of view, picking up the DPS talents is pretty attractive: there is almost no downside to picking up the talents to do 95% of the DPS of a focused DPS spec. From a DPS point of view, that difference is sufficiently small that you could reasonably consider using your off-spec to do something different entirely.
    Last edited by Cortano; 2010-06-24 at 11:09 AM.

  2. #842
    I didn't know there was another post when I lazily didn't quote who I was responding to. TBH, I didn't even read your post due to the complete lack of interest in hybrid speccing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yohassakura View Post
    You're adding the base motw onto the agi-cloak enchant. To make it fair you'd also have to add the base motw onto the armor enchant.

    It's 2.15~ armor per agility (unbuffed in bear form).

    22*2.15 -> 47.3 armor (unbuffed, but talented, bear form).
    22 agi -> 0.30066666...7 (unbuffed, talented, bear form) dodge %.
    22 agi -> 0.286 (unbuffed, talented, bear form) crit %.

    vs

    225 armor

    ...

    Armor pl0x!



    The amount of threat that you'd gain from that tiny bit of crit is so minimal that the effect is negligable. You'd have more of an increase by enchanting armsman on your gloves.



    I'll take the dodge crit and armor XD
    Last edited by bavarcarus; 2010-06-24 at 04:46 PM.

  3. #843
    I'll take the dodge crit and armor XD
    That seems REALLY shortsighted... only spending a dozen of your talent points. I think you might be able to improve your game slightly by spending the rest of them.

  4. #844
    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    Armor is not that helpful where with agility we get dodge, crit, and armor.

    MoW, King effect the stat.

    (22 agility+37 agility)*(2% (IMoW)+10% (BoK)+6%(SotF))= 69.62 agility

    without IMoW, SotF, and KIng you would have 59 agility.

    That is 10.62 agility which can help with Crit, Dodge, and Armor.

    Armor does not get any other boost but bear form and blizzard remove the armor % modifier toward green color armor. So that armor does nothing else but sit there.

    Are you telling me that you skip Survival of the Fittest, and Improved Mark of the Wild when you did your math?

    Armor does not help with threat. It only deal with survival and that it. You need threat and survival to be a good tank. Choosing survival can bite back on your raid when you have no threat however choosing agility would not since it help a lot more with both threat and survival.

    Don't make me shout at you. Just don't.

    First, Mark of the Wild, or Strength of Earth, or any other STATIC modifiers don't count when comparing enchants. Adding those values is just plain retarded. You get MotW agility and SoE agility REGARDLESS of your cloak enchant.
    By your reasoning, I should have added 37agi from MotW to the armor enchant as well. Let's not be stupid, shall we?

    What you count in are the %-based modifiers. ONLY THOSE. Which means, as far as raid buffs go, only Blessing of Kings.
    OF COURSE I've taken into account SotF and Imp.MotW, that why i said "flat talent modifiers already included".
    Since you can't grab it by reasoning, let's type it down: 22 * 1.02 (Imp.MotW) * 1.06 (SotF) * 1.1 (Kings) = 26.17
    It's 4 points from the base value. If you take into account that we always have those talents, strictly the "raid" impact is 3, since you have 23.79 post talents.

    It gets down to choosing roughly 170 extra armor versus 0.3% dodge and 0.2% crit.
    I'll take the armor, hands down, anytime.

    ---------- Post added 2010-06-24 at 09:46 PM ----------

    Added a response: flexibility is not worth the loss in a real raid environment.
    You'll cover one or two roles, and guess what? Dual spec allows for two different setups. And don't tell me you'll be covering three different roles in a single raid, because that's utter bullshit.
    All-roles-druidism was fun, back in 1.8. It died with TBC, and it won't come back. Pick your role(s), specialize on that, and top your stats. That's what raiders do.

    It doesn't matter how you look at it Cortano: a 5% loss is extremely relevant. As I said, try to convince you raid leader you can live skipping Naturalist on your talent build, "because that is less than the standard deviation". I'd like to see the answer, really.

    Again: it's all fun and games, while you're just slacking and PuGing. Don't expect high end progression with gimped stats tho. Ain't gonna happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  5. #845
    It doesn't matter how you look at it Cortano: a 5% loss is extremely relevant. As I said, try to convince you raid leader you can live skipping Naturalist on your talent build, "because that is less than the standard deviation". I'd like to see the answer, really.
    Propaganda: Straw man
    A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

    No one has ever suggested going without naturalist, stop bring up idiotic ideas that no one but you has suggested simply because you think you can win an argument that no one but you is having.

    Flexibility is often worth the trade off; it is not the choice that everyone will make, but understanding the trade-offs, and making an informed decision is at least a valid way to approach a raid set-up rather than the small-minded dogmatism that you seem to love.

    Pick your role(s), specialize on that, and top your stats. That's what raiders do.
    First, raiders don't specialize on their OFF-SPEC. They focus on their MAIN spec, there are plenty of raiders who don't even have a viable off-spec, let alone one 95% as effective as the main spec players.

    Second, good raiders will also look at how to fill in gaps in the raid, add value outside of their narrowly defined "main" role. You don't need to stop with a main spec, as you seem to be implying, and refuse to do anything else.

    There is always a challenge at getting the right people to do the job. A 25-man raid might need 3 tanks, but on many fights, the third tank will be DPSing. (and you have have obscure cases like festergut, where one of the tanks can DPS for large stretches of time.) Because attendance isn't 100%, you need several extra tanks to ensure you have enough tanks on all nights. and you need at least 4 tanks for 10-mans.

    Every time I have 5 tanks at a raid and not one of them has with a viable DPS spec because they "picked tanking" and are "specialized" at it... well, what you describe really goes against what raid leaders want. It is OK to have a couple really focused guys, but you also want a couple that people can use to fill in the gaps.

    try to convince you raid leader you can live skipping Naturalist on your talent build, "because that is less than the standard deviation". I'd like to see the answer, really.
    As someone who has led raids for a very, very long time I don't really see why you expect a raid leader to be that demanding on secondary roles and off-specs. My experience is that when you get someone where you can actually use them in a secondary role with ONLY a 5% lack of effectiveness it is superb. Slightly unusual though, and not having a 100% effective secondary role is definitely not a recruitment red-flag, let alone something I am going to kick a long-term raider out for. (That is not saying that some guilds may have these kind of requirements on off-specs, but that is not the usual case; typically, an raid-useful off-spec is a bonus, not a requirement. For feral tanks though, it is kind of a freebie.)
    Last edited by Cortano; 2010-06-25 at 09:46 AM.

  6. #846
    Naturalist was a random example of losing a comparable amount of DPS. If you don't understand what a metaphor is, then don't bother answering.

    Guilds policies are different. You've been raid leading for a while, so have I. I've been both a RL and an officer in my gaming history, so I do have my share of that as well.
    If you're down with cutting some slack to people, all is good. Don't take that for granted, I assure you that's not the case in all the guilds. When you're making alt raids on a regular basis just to get around limited attempts and so on, expecting secondary roles from people is nothing strange. Often, it is more attractive than switching around raiders in between bosses, another thing that I'm sure you know it's a very common habit.

    You call it small-minded dogmatism, I call it optimization. Granted, I don't expect you to agree, so it's merely a clarification. The main point asked by that poster has been solved, so this is the end of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  7. #847
    Naturalist was a random example of losing a comparable amount of DPS. If you don't understand what a metaphor is, then don't bother answering.
    Naturalist is 250% larger than NSS/MSS. You are obsessing about a 5% difference in damage and come out with an example that is 150% off and call it comparable? Keep metaphors for your poetry, which I can only hope are better than your arguments.

    You call it small-minded dogmatism, I call it optimization. Granted, I don't expect you to agree, so it's merely a clarification. The main point asked by that poster has been solved, so this is the end of it.
    You think raiders having no off-spec is optimization? Do you even understand what optimization is?

    Guilds where raiders have raid useful off-specs are better than guilds where no one has an off-spec at all. period. No amount of straw-man arguments or personal attacks changes that.
    Last edited by Cortano; 2010-06-25 at 10:05 AM.

  8. #848
    Just give up Cortano, Arel has always been violently against a druid maximizing being a druid.

    OOC, shredding attacks and KotJ. 6 points worth of posible bear threat talents you need in cat talents to do reasonable offtank dps, (the possible extra 3 for predatory instincts cost you some).
    You lose no mitigation talents at all to gain a lot of utility.
    DPS needs dps glyphs however, fortunately tank glyphs are quite weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by arel00 View Post
    Added a response: flexibility is not worth the loss in a real raid environment.
    You'll cover one or two roles, and guess what? Dual spec allows for two different setups. And don't tell me you'll be covering three different roles in a single raid, because that's utter bullshit.
    All-roles-druidism was fun, back in 1.8. It died with TBC, and it won't come back. Pick your role(s), specialize on that, and top your stats. That's what raiders do.
    Joy for you, it's all farm content. I quite commonly tank for heroic Professor and heal for heroic sindi in the same raid and same day that I'm primary cat DPS for everything else(other than giving a healer or tank a break so they dont burn out).
    Gold is stupid easy to get, glyphs and respecs are cheap, easy and fast with a lock to summon you back.

    PS. I spec differently if full main tanking. With retarded ICC buff however I usually go bear and pick up if something happens to a tank while in full cat spec, full dps gear(Ie. 1 tank DCed right on pull at princes yesterday).
    Last edited by axxey; 2010-06-25 at 12:34 PM.

  9. #849
    Quote Originally Posted by axxey View Post
    Just give up Cortano, Arel has always been violently against a druid maximizing being a druid.
    I'm being realistic. I used to play "all-round hybrid" when it was a precious addition to various encounters, despite the doubts that druids still raised post 1.8 when not being resto. I still play all 4 specs, thou not all of them at raider level, and still enjoy the fullness of the class.
    Understand what you want, more than that, it's not worth discussing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  10. #850
    Quote Originally Posted by axxey View Post
    You lose no mitigation talents at all to gain a lot of utility.
    DPS needs dps glyphs however, fortunately tank glyphs are quite weak.
    O_O

    I can't believe that's what you think...20% extra healing, massive stamina...

  11. #851
    Hellscreams buff of crap makes SI glyph rather pointless unless I'm in dps gear, if I'm in dps gear it's not a fight I'll need SI. What's the use of retarded amounts of stam on top of already retarded amounts of stam when I've poped SI.

    Frenzy has it's uses, more often than not there's a cooldown from a healer at far more optimal times than a tank's reactions.
    I use it for heroic prof, I would use it if i was tanking H-sindi or H-LK. The only fights you use effectively glyph of frenzy is when it's predictible incoming burst you're rotating cooldowns through.

  12. #852
    if you have too much stm you could always put more agi in there, and I hear ruby sanctum is a bit challenging.

    EDIT: damnit, one wrong word can sure change the meaning drastically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fixed
    if you have too much stm you could always put more agi in there, although I hear ruby sanctum is a bit challenging.
    Last edited by bavarcarus; 2010-06-27 at 08:25 PM.

  13. #853
    Quote Originally Posted by bavarcarus View Post
    if you have too much stm you could always put more agi in there, and I hear ruby sanctum is a bit challenging.
    Following previous patch progression paths, people still generally stacked stamina for the higher EH, to minimize stoicism so that if that dodge that you needed to come in didn't arrive, then you may still be standing.
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  14. #854
    DPS needs dps glyphs however, fortunately tank glyphs are quite weak.
    I think this is spot on. The glyphs are very weak. You are pretty much ONLY going to swap those in for progression fights, stuff your guild is still wiping with, and only if you are the primary tank. The number of fights where the glyphed vs. unglyphed cooldown makes a difference in winning the fight is vanishingly small. Very limited number of fights where you would use them + very limited number of times the glyph would make a difference + requiring the ability up at the right time and you still need to use it = a very, very weak set of glyphs. They are essentially "specialist" glyphs that you pull out for specific fights, rather than something generally useful. (like the taunt glyph, you pop it in for specific fights, but generally: not very useful)


    Glyphs that wouldn't suck:
    Savage Defense: now works against spells
    Barkskin: recycled increased to 2 minutes, effect increased to 50%
    Bleeding 1: All bleed effects now cause infected wounds
    Bleeding 2: You heal for 50% of any bleeding damage you do (as bear) or 15% (as cat)
    Demoralizing Roar: interrupts spell casting and dispells a buff
    Bash: Recycle decreased by 20 sec, stun length decreased by 3 sec
    Swipe: all crits cause the target to bleed for 50% of damage over 10 sec
    Enrage: the 4T10 effect, on a glyph

    ---------- Post added 2010-06-27 at 11:18 AM ----------

    Just give up Cortano, Arel has always been violently against a druid maximizing being a druid.
    Ain't that the truth!

    I am shocked to see people arguing that understanding the class, and the various trade-offs that can be made to better suit some play styles is a waste of time. That is fine for blue board trolls, but wish this board had more intelligent discussion on the matter!
    Last edited by Cortano; 2010-06-27 at 10:14 AM.

  15. #855
    I can't bring myself to raid without the taunt glyph...I raid with several tanks that insist that the glyph is stupid despite an explanation of why I feel it's needed. Then in LK the other day one of them had 2 resisted taunts as a shambling came out (I know, they shouldn't have needed to taunt but whatever). So I whipped out the 'sooo...how's that useless taunt glyph goin' and they still insist it's not needed after wiping the raid.

    /ramble

    I tanked festergut a few times in a hybrid spec/set just for my amusement trying to get big dps numbers, the spec replaced my kittie spec. I won't walk into an ICC raid without all the tools I ought to have as a tank, It may not be progression but it's not like I'm doin naxx. IMO it's disrespectful to the healers to not do all you can, I don't see trees switching to boomkin or priest healers speccing into shadow to dps.

  16. #856
    High Overlord Bruin's Avatar
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    What the other tanks don't understand/realize Bava, is that we don't really have a lot of strong choices for glyphs to use while tanking anyhow. And explain to them that while you may often have/normally have Glyph of Maul (at least I would assume so, since its an extremely useful glyph for trash), that esp. in ICC its a hindrance (oh great I Mauled the Blood Beasts onto me, and now the Hunter and Mage can't kite them away, and oops, we just killed 2 melee dps....)but having my taunt miss on Saurfang pisses me off a lot more, so Glyph of Growl it is

    Imho, in ICC, as a Bear tank, there are precious few fights where you want Maul to hit multiple targets, but there are a number of fights where a taunt missing can result in a tank taking a massive amount of damage, or even wiping a raid. {I'm thinking Festergut if taunt misses and the OT explodes}

    so yeah, tell em they don't know what they're talking about

  17. #857
    so yeah, tell em they don't know what they're talking about
    Glyphs are the new flasks, just swap them around for specialty fights. Its not like you need to gimp yourself on trash just so you can not miss a taunt on Saurfang or Festergut. I carry a stack of the Taunt and Maul glyphs with me; my feeling is that the Maul glyph is pretty useful generally, the Taunt glyph is situational.

    As you learn encounters, the other tank glyphs have some (limited) value. After you've cleared something twice, its usually not worth the bother of getting them out of the bag to change them.

    Just to quote myself:
    They are essentially "specialist" glyphs that you pull out for specific fights, rather than something generally useful. (like the taunt glyph, you pop it in for specific fights, but generally: not very useful)
    Last edited by Cortano; 2010-06-28 at 01:12 PM.

  18. #858
    There's a question of where you put the line as far as where you ought to have tank glyphs, threat glyphs or dps glyphs, do you bother with tanking gear anymore? Should you find the fine line of what you can survive in the encounter or be the best tank you can be? If a boss becomes farm content, does that justify not endeavoring to be the best at your role that you can? Do you stop bothering with barkskin and enrage as damage reduction cds?

    I can think of no situation where I would want a taunt to miss, on trash I don't really care about having the maul glyph because it isn't going to keep overeager and overbuffed dps from pulling off me during aoe. IMO it's our pally's job to hold the packs lol.

    The point I'm trying to make here is that my role is tanking bosses, I'm going to do all I can to be the best at that. If the healers decide they've got it too easy then one of our healers will dps. Granted I may have to try to remind myself to use longer CDs during farm fights, but I should be using them.

  19. #859
    High Overlord Bruin's Avatar
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    I should state that I do carry around a number of glyphs with me, and trade them out as necessary. I also switch out my macros as needed (i.e. I'll "turn off" my macros that binds Maul to all my specials in Heroics, because since I over gear the content so much anyhow, Rage actually is an issue lol).

    With the exception of Heroics, where I'm usually more about speed than finesse; I maintain my "normal" rotation, even if its much lower content (unless its a point where its so trivial that a 1-2x Mangles/Maul just to establish threat is going to be enough because the DPS will already have killed the target by then (I'm looking at you AQ40).

    Overall though, and to those that are looking to be a Bear tank (or any tanking role), doing all that you can to perform at your top level is always a really good policy to follow.

  20. #860
    I also switch out my macros as needed
    I use ones like this: (where you can press 'alt' to not maul)

    #showtooltip
    /cast Swipe
    /cast [nomod] Maul

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