[Priest] Shadow DPS 101

[Worshaka]

If you sit down and do the numbers... Casting DP with 0 stacks of SW is greater dps than having to delay DP for 5 stacks of SW.

I'll give an example... lets assume DP ticks for 1K (with 0 SW stacks)... if you cast DP first it does a total of 8K damage in 24 sec.

Lets say you decide to cast 2 x full duration of MF to get to 5 SW stacks and then cast DP. This means DP doesnt land on your target for 6 seconds (assuming 0 haste for ease of this example) meaning you will only get 6 ticks of DP in the same 24sec time frame. Each tick is 10% harder so DP ticks for 1.1K but only manages 6.6K damage instead of 8K as illustrated above. You end up 1.4K out of pocket (so to speak).

At the end of the day your opening rotation will have an insignificant effect on your overall dps (assuming you cast SW:P with full debuffs up and 5 stacks of SW). If an encounter lasts over 5mins, what you do in the opening 20sec is hardly going to impact your overall dps in any meaningful way.

However if you are keen to output the absolute maximum, VT/MB/DP/MF/SW:P (assuming all debuffs are up, otherwise you delay casting) is the best way to go.

[rimmer]

I'll give it a try but i cant see casting dp earlier will make much of a difference on anything other than a 24second fight on target dummy, a fight is rarely gonna end at the exact point your DP wears off, losing a pontentially lower damage tick or two at the beginning may be better than losing some higher damage ticks at the end, and the longer you leave it at the start (7.5 secs with VE?) the higher chance there is of your first cast being buffed by outside sources.

[Worshaka]

I just proved above that delaying DP by the time required for it to gain 10% more damage is a loss in DPS... you are better for DP to do the max possible ticks (unbuffed) than to sacrafice 2 ticks to gain buffs...

Again using the above information... if you delay DP by 2 ticks out of a possible 8 you are losing 2 / 8 = 25% of it's effectiveness... and for what? for a 10% damage buff... I dunno about you but 25% is more than 10% where I come from.

Want to explain to me how that makes any sense whatsoever?

[Sarkli]

Rimmer also keep in mind that after the 24sec is over you have to re-cast DP anyways, thus giving it the 10% from SW. But when starting off a rotation you wanna throw out as much as possible to start getting the dps rolling. The only one i can EVER logically see waiting till 5SW is SW:P

[Naphomci]

A couple of things I'd like ask/say:
1. Would it be possible to add the Pseudo Power stat numbers here? Just thought it would be helpful to those would wind up here and don't read too far into shadowpriest.com

2. As for the 'cookie-cutter' builds, I had been under the impression from my own experience and from what I had read on EJ that theres a number of points (5-7ish) that aren't really 'set in stone' and essentially boil down to preference (for example, I hadn't had enough issue with mana at this point to really want to put points into lowering shadowfiend cooldown)

3. Not sure if this is good for a '101' type thread, but I think pointing out the usefullness of shadowfiend as a dps boost can be nice (mainly, if you summon the fiend right before heroism/bloodlust, it gets the buff and hits a couple more times). On that note, something I have wondered but either haven't confirmed or been able to find, does the "shadow crawl" ability affect bosses? If so should that be included for SW:P goodness?

[Worshaka]

A couple of things I'd like ask/say:
1. Would it be possible to add the Pseudo Power stat numbers here? Just thought it would be helpful to those would wind up here and don't read too far into shadowpriest.com

2. As for the 'cookie-cutter' builds, I had been under the impression from my own experience and from what I had read on EJ that theres a number of points (5-7ish) that aren't really 'set in stone' and essentially boil down to preference (for example, I hadn't had enough issue with mana at this point to really want to put points into lowering shadowfiend cooldown)

3. Not sure if this is good for a '101' type thread, but I think pointing out the usefullness of shadowfiend as a dps boost can be nice (mainly, if you summon the fiend right before heroism/bloodlust, it gets the buff and hits a couple more times). On that note, something I have wondered but either haven't confirmed or been able to find, does the "shadow crawl" ability affect bosses? If so should that be included for SW:P goodness?

My original motivation for this thread was to reduce the number of "zomg my spriest dps is crap, please help" posts that were turning up every day. It still occurs however and it's evident that people don't even bother to do some self testing on their MB frequency and DoT uptime (they simply assume that because they are using the right priority they are casting the spells as often as possible).

I also intended this post to be as simple as possible. I could have written an essay on spriest dps but that would have hardly been practical. There are some more advanced things people can do to play their class better but at the end of the day they probably provide no more than an extra 5% output which is only going to matter for Uld hard modes. If you are in a guild that can clear hard modes then you are unlikely to require any help from me.

As for the PP values, I created a direct link the the best gear thread which contains that information. If people fail at clicking a link to view that information I doubt directly posting it into the thread will help much. Here it is again.

Again you are right about the cookie cutter build but in the interests of making the thread as simple as possible I recommended a specific spec to begin with and then offered a more advanced spec. At the end of the day there are 5-7 points you could place where you want and it would probably mean very little... I just argue that the two I suggested are the best possible spec's but of course this is somewhat subjective.

Lastly, I don't believe shadowfiend does any significant damage for us to worry too much about using it for a dps increase (keep in mind that fiend costs a GCD that could be used on another spell, so any damage fiend does would need to be > than the potential spell you would cast for you to gain any dps). Particularly considering the thread was designed for beginners, they should be more concerned about getting the max possible mana return. Admittedly casting fiend shortly before BL/heroism will net you more mana and is something you should do where possible. However I believe you will find that BL/Heroism will be used early in encounters (most of the time) when you don't want to use your fiend (coz you're mana pool is near full) and thus it's a bit of a redundant issue.

If we want to talk about more advanced techniques, always fiend during a MB CD when dots don't need refreshing (you don't want to delay MB or DoTs). Macro shadowcrawl into your fiend button and press it again after 5 seconds... this will increase the damage of your fiend for you to squeeze a bit more damage. Again I don't think it's significant but it's something you can do if you are really keen to push to the absolute limit.

[Naphomci]

My original motivation for this thread ...
....[i]answering my questions...responding to what I said....
... you are really keen to push to the absolute limit.

Sorry about that, it seems I overestimated the original intended scope of the thread.

[Worshaka]

Hope this helps, I know it's a bit long but its no where near as comprehensive as it could be...

You forgot this part.

[AetherMcLoud]

(for example, I hadn't had enough issue with mana at this point to really want to put points into lowering shadowfiend cooldown)

2 Minute less cooldown on shadowfiend is a dps increase though. The little guy hits kinda hard nowadays.

[Nezoia]

2. As for the 'cookie-cutter' builds, I had been under the impression from my own experience and from what I had read on EJ that theres a number of points (5-7ish) that aren't really 'set in stone' and essentially boil down to preference (for example, I hadn't had enough issue with mana at this point to really want to put points into lowering shadowfiend cooldown)

It does, but Shadowfiend is NOT one of the options.

On that note, something I have wondered but either haven't confirmed or been able to find, does the "shadow crawl" ability affect bosses? If so should that be included for SW:P goodness?

Do you even know what Shadowcrawl does?!?

[Morbidosa]

Hi everyone! I've read all post but i'm really confused, what the best opening rotation for shadow priest? and we must use the sw:d every cd? Thanks

[Nezoia]

Hi everyone! I've read all post but i'm really confused, what the best opening rotation for shadow priest? and we must use the sw:d every cd? Thanks

No, you haven't read the thread. Read it again.

[Arbito]

Hi everyone! I've read all post but i'm really confused, what the best opening rotation for shadow priest? and we must use the sw:d every cd? Thanks

What Nezoia is trying to say is that the actual information can be found on previous pages in this thread. Reading the entire thread might prove to be quite intresting. You might even learn a thing or 2, i know i have.

Normal starting rotation : VT MB MF3 DP SW:P
altough Worshaka tried to explain that waiting with casting DP is a dps loss.
A better variation on the starting rotation:

If you sit down and do the numbers... Casting DP with 0 stacks of SW is greater dps than having to delay DP for 5 stacks of SW.

At the end of the day your opening rotation will have an insignificant effect on your overall dps (assuming you cast SW:P with full debuffs up and 5 stacks of SW). If an encounter lasts over 5mins, what you do in the opening 20sec is hardly going to impact your overall dps in any meaningful way.

However if you are keen to output the absolute maximum, VT/MB/DP/MF/SW:P (assuming all debuffs are up, otherwise you delay casting) is the best way to go.

And no Sw is not used in a 'normal' rotation. As mentioned in the very first page, the very first post by Worshaka, page 1 of this thread.

[Worshaka]

No, you haven't read the thread. Read it again.

You crack me up sometimes Nezoia.

[koledownik90]

Please stop using ROTATION word in shadow priest thread -.-. WE DO NOT USE any rotation, we just got spell priorities same as locks. /eot

[Worshaka]

That is being rather pedantic... whether someone uses the word rotation or priority they are obviously referring to casting a series of spells. Yes you are technically correct there is no set rotation, but I doubt anyone was making that claim when they used the word rotation either.

[Nezoia]

I prefer to refrain from using rotation as a expression, but in the right context there's no problems using it.

If you look at all classes in WoW today, they all reached a state of complexity that removes a repeative-rotation, and changes it into a more priority based ability cycle.

Personally, (the current) Feral Druid Cat Cycle is much more complex than that of Shadow Priests.

[Naphomci]

It does, but Shadowfiend is NOT one of the options.

Well from what I have read from EJ, it is somewhat debatable on if it is an option (and if you feel you have a very compelling reason, why not be helpful and explain, instead of being arrogant((as claimed by your avatar))?)

Do you even know what Shadowcrawl does?!?

This is fair, because I was being rather stupid at the time I wrote that (half listening to a professor can make you type things that don't make sense).

2 Minute less cooldown on shadowfiend is a dps increase though. The little guy hits kinda hard nowadays.

I am aware it is a dps increase and I try and time mine around heroism for further help, thus often even a 3 minute cooldown wouldn't be up. And taking the talent in an infinite time span adds ~45 dps if the fiend does 20000 while it is up

[Worshaka]

Shadowfiend costs a GCD so when evaluating it's dps effect you need to subtract the damage you would have dealt with that GCD instead... so if you cast Shadowfiend instead of MB for example the DPS effect would be Shadowfiend damage - possible MB damage.

Of course you are probably trying to cast fiend when you would normally MF... so if the fiend does 20K on average you are probably actually only doing an extra 17K damage per 3mins... and considering you only want to cast fiend when you need mana i'd suggest you never truly cast fiend every CD... for that reason I think it would be difficult to put an accurate dps number to the talent and if you did it would be an insignificant one.

The reason it's a mandatory talent is 2 fold... 1 it will ensure you always have mana, particularly as you get more advanced and drop Spirit Tap from your spec to pick up Shadow Affinity & Imp VE which are very useful in Ulduar. 2 it reduces the CD on fade and while you might think that irrelevant the ability to set your threat to 0 is extremely useful in a lot of Ulduar encounters and sometimes I wish I could reduce the CD even further.

Lastly if you compare what you get for 2 points, I doubt you can mount a case that those 2 points are better spent elsewhere. 2 points of spirit tap isn't going to help... inner focus is less mp/5 than what a 3min fiend will give you. There is really nothing else you could possibly take that will generate any benefits to you.

[Nezoia]

and considering you only want to cast fiend when you need mana i'd suggest you never truly cast fiend every CD... for that reason I think it would be difficult to put an accurate dps number to the talent and if you did it would be an insignificant one.

That's very fight dependant!

On a flight like Ignis or Kologarn, my Shadowfiend provides me with roughly 60k damage in total. For 3 GCDs. Because on those fights I know I can utitlize it to maximize dps.

And on XT-002, Shadowfiend is MAD DPS during the Heart Phase. With Shadowcrawl on it swings for 8k !