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  1. #1

    Holy mana problems :(

    Hey, after 3.1 i specced to holy and im obviously now having mana problems. Although holy have always had problems i never thought id have it to the extent that i do...i mean shadowfiend hymn of hope the spirit world glass trinket, all in one fight like Xt or sarph drakes. as im typing about 10 minutes ago i got the Os trinket in the hope that it will improve my overall mana preservation. I also guess i might get trigger happy with it and cast flash heal alot but meh, any advice for better mana conservtion will be most apprechiated.

    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...rand&n=Balgoth but instead of egg of mortal essence have the spirit trinket from OS. Thanks in advance

  2. #2
    Pandaren Monk Eis's Avatar
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    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    Switch a few gems around is my advice. Your meta should be Insightful Earthsiege Diamond, not Ember Skyflare. And consider switching a few of the straight spell power for spell power/int or something similar.

    On your talents, why take Spell Warding over something such as Empowered Healing?

    In case you're curious, this is the holy build I use.

  3. #3

    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    If you need more mana, go down to 3/3 mental agility and even take points in mental strength. This will impact your healing throughput, but it does beat no throughput at all.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  4. #4

    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Eis
    Switch a few gems around is my advice. Your meta should be Insightful Earthsiege Diamond, not Ember Skyflare. And consider switching a few of the straight spell power for spell power/int or something similar.

    On your talents, why take Spell Warding over something such as Empowered Healing?

    In case you're curious, this is the holy build I use.
    Just... no. Gem advice is good, but not in regards to talents.

    Empowered Healing is garbage. Blessed Resilience + Test of Faith are much better than it. If you want the math behind the numbers, go to ElitistJerks. When you start attempting hardmodes in Ulduar, you realize that you taking 8% less Spell damage goes a long way.

    In terms of healing theory, you really should never be casting Greater Heal. Ever. If you want to tank heal, go Discipline, Holy is not cut out for it. You have less thoroughput and less sustainability than a Paladin on a tank. And since you're not tank healing as Holy, you're on the raid. GH is absolute trash for raid healing. It's slow and tends to have ridiculous overheal. And if you're stacking triple Serendipity to use a GH constantly your mana is going to empty within the first 2 minutes of the fight.

    It takes some getting used to, but Renew is now the bread-and-butter spell of the Holy Priest's arsenal. Specced properly (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbuZfvzcbMqiuG0uAo:0mN), your Renew will push GH-like numbers for a fraction of the cost, and the advantage of being very low-maintenance and only requiring a single GCD to utilize.

    Simply put, your "rotation" is as follows:

    1. Did Surge of Light Proc? Cast Flash Heal either on someone who doesn't have a HoT or a priority target (Tank).
    2. Is Prayer of Mending available? Cast it on a target guaranteed to be hit (Tank).
    3. Is Circle of Healing available? Cast it on a crowd.
    4. Situational time. XT casting Tantrum? Kologarn arm sweep? Hodir's Frozen Blows? Mimiron's Laser Barrage? Go go Prayer of Healing! XT cast a Light Bomb on a teammate? Kologarn eye beam someone? Vezax throwing a Shadow Crash? PW: Shield the target to give them 60% additional run-speed from the Body & Soul Talent. This step 4 is VERY fight-specific and will just take experience to learn.
    5. Are you below 80% health? Target someone else who also is and cast Binding Heal.
    6. If someone is in danger of dying (<20% health), toss them a Flash Heal.
    7. If absolutely none of the above apply, Renew a raid member below 80% health who doesn't already have a HoT on them.

    The above priority rotation doesn't apply to every situation. Most notably it leaves out timing your Guardian Spirits every minute or so, using Inner Fire + Divine Hymn, etc. Yes, when you first start doing it your finger is going to itch to play Flash Heal whack-a-mole, but control yourself. By my second raid I am now doing the most Effective Healing on any given fight, and my Overhealing is almost nonexistent. In addition, I find mana to be much less of an issue.

    Finally, back to the OP's original point, which is Mana Management. Make sure you're popping Hymn of Hope within the first seconds of calling your Shadowfiend for maximum benefit (Shadowfiends scale with your total mana pool). The Magestic Dragon Figurine is going to help you a lot until you receive a better Regen trinket from Ulduar. It returns about 2-3k more mana per fight than the Spirit Glass from my recollection.

  5. #5

    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    I have to utterly disagree with your stance on Holy Priests Pewpewarrows. However I'd rather like to avoid getting entangled in some extended argument as I suspect it would derail to name-calling, so I guess the best way is just to lay out how I view Holy priests in general and just leave it at that.

    Healing done to me is nearly meaningless, and so I find strategies that pursue it to be suspect. How much total healing isn't as important as where and when it's being done. Topping people off who have no immediate danger of dying is part of healing, and being topped off in Ulduar is important due to the potential for raid damage, but it's not quite equal to the crucial healing done that saves people. In my experience the top-off/stabilization job is best left to other classes that specialize in it. Holy Priests have very little in the way of stabilization mechanics, but are excellent at unleashing a large amount of healing in a short period of time. You cited several examples in Ulduar where the raid takes a high amount of damage that has to be fixed rapidly, as the boss has follow up moves that have unpredictable targets (Arm Sweep -> Eye Beam, Tantrum -> Light/Gravity bomb, Rune of Death -> Lightning Whirl, etc). It's these cases where I've found my Holy Priest to be the most value, being able to return players rapidly to a safer range of health so that they are no longer in immediate danger of death. Other healers can take it from there.

    So am I saying that Holy Priests are nothing more than emergency medics, otherwise sidelined while the other healers take care of the primary load of healing? No, in fact you can't properly fulfill your emergency specialty if you aren't out there doing healing otherwise. You need to charge Serendipity to have that burst healing power, and that requires active healing elsewhere (and I don't advocate 3x FH -> Gheal; you Gheal when it's needed and not before). Keeping Prayer of Mending going is useful, as many circumstances can easily eat through the charges before the cooldown is up so having it always "in play" is usually a good idea. And since you can't really spam Flash Heal/Binding Heal all day long, it's integral that you're feeding it with SoL procs from other heals (CoH and PoH both practically guarantee a proc per cast).

    Part of this ultimately also is an issue with how your group heals. I've found that people I heal with frequently come to understand that if somebody is in danger I am most likely able to drop a large heal to fix it rapidly. Most healing classes tend to prefer their lighter heals (Flash of Light, Lesser Healing Wave, etc) and so letting me do the single big heal and then them finishing the job tends to be a pretty harmonious situation. However I've also been in raids where people are just automatically healing anybody that gets low (this is particularly obvious in PuG raids); somebody's health dips and you can see all the healers lobbing heals at that one person...and the tank or somebody else dies due to this fixation. I think this approach has also become endemic after Naxxramas, where the main goal of healing was to beat the other guy to the punch because there really wasn't enough damage to heal in the first place.

    So this post got a little off topic and rambled, but I cannot agree with approaching Holy Priests with an emphasis on small top-off heals as I don't really see the true strengths of the class being played to. It can work, as you so demonstrate, but other classes and specs are designed for such a role and competing with them in it I ultimately find to be of dubious value to the raid.

  6. #6

    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    hey the problem of your mana is your specc
    chance it to this : http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...1&version=9767
    and all be fine.
    its not your gair but maby your rotations. ;D

  7. #7

    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    Neichus, I think you completely missed the point of my post. It's not to turn Holy Priests into "top-offers", it's an adapted style of playing centered around Ulduar's BURST -> Top off Everyone -> BURST healing mentality.

    Please notice how the actual cast spam of Renew is quite low on the priority list of things to do. The difference here is that, after using CoH and Prayer to stabilize your raid, wherever you WOULD do patch-up work on stragglers with Flash Heal whack-a-mole, use Renew or SoL'ed FH instead. Same goes for the lulls in-between heavy raid-wide damage: Use SoL procs, PoM, CoH, and Renew wisely.

    Serendipity is a gimmick talent. If you have to "charge-up" an upcoming Prayer of Healing with three flash heals, guess what? You obviously know when the heavy damage is coming, so just start casting it early. Predicting incoming damage and pre-casting is infinitely more useful than that talent, and thus frees up 3 useful points to be spent elsewhere.

    My role didn't change in fights when I went to this Renew spambot mentality. My regen improved, my thoroughput increased, and my overhealing percentage plummeted. What is that but progress?

  8. #8

    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    @Pewpewarrows
    It all depends on your healing-crew. Someone has to do the big heals.
    You cant provide them with your tactics and skills. Not even in emergency.
    Playing a priest means more than doing one job.
    In a perfect world where everyone does his job at the right time your
    plan works the best, thats right.
    95% of healers are not in this kind of raids ...
    --
    The cataclysm broke the world ... and the pandas could not fix it!

  9. #9

    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    Pewpew, I agree with most of what you said with a few small personal disagreements. These disagreements don't really affect the overall style you talked about though. I agree with GHeal not being the bread and butter spell anymore. If you want to heal a single target go Disc. As holy, it's all about CoH, PoH, and Empowered Renew. Binding heal is good too. But if you're taking SoL, I feel serendipity still helps out because those free instant flashes trigger a stack, and so does binding heal and you will still be using both of those, especially with SoL. So while I don't agree with sitting there throwing out flashes to "get ready" for the incoming damage, precasting isn't ALWAYS viable, there are emergencies. In a perfect raid environment though where you can trust the other healers you're with (not Pugging) then Serendipity can be dropped maybe but I still think it's useful because SoL has synergy with it. Even picking up 2/3 Serendipity is a little like having Borrowed Time.

    Body and soul is way too situational I think. The bubble by itself on a smart person is enough to protect other people from light bomb, kologarn's eye beam, etc. I don't think it's a bad choice just a personal choice type of thing. I don't think anyone is really losing out if they don't get it.

    The only thing I'm not sure on is Light Well. It's been through changes. Is it a must have now?

    The changes to spell knock back has made Healing Focus less useful I'm pretty sure. It's not as big of a problem as it was. So personally I took 1 point out of it and topped off Spell Warding.

    Holy Reach is excellent in Ulduar as there are many raid damage situations which cause people to spread out, almost all of them pretty much. Healing Prayers is also key I think since those 2 spells will be casted more than GHeal by a long shot if you're playing your role right.

    In the end, it's close to yours with Serendipity still though. --> Holy Build

    I'm still toying with this and testing it out as I'm not fully convinced Empowered Healing is worth passing yet since it still affects Flash and Binding Heal. EDIT* Read some math on EJ and if you only cast GHeal rarely, then Blessed Resilience is better even if you are at 3000 spell power.

    Also, I have been thinking, Inspiration is more of a single target tank type of thing. If Holy is mostly raid healing like you say, the damage is mostly magic damage. It's rare where multiple people are getting beat on for physical damage. I still have it on both my holy and disc builds but I'm beginning to think Inspiration is better suited for Disc, since raid healing is usually magic damage. What do you think Pewpew? I guess it's still good even if only the MT and OT are the only 2 to take advantage of it because they will be getting hit with your PoH's and CoH's as well. Was just something I have been thinking about.

    On to the main point though, it sounds like you're probably throwing out way too many flashes to get quick GHeals. Flashing up Serendipity to throw off GHeals is going to eat your mana fast. Leave those heals to Paladins and Druids. You should be casting PoH and CoH when multiple targets get low, a Binding Heal here and there when there's nothing else to do and you and someone else is low, and Renews on everyone else taking damage but not in immediate danger of dying. Of course, throw out your SoL's whenever they proc and don't let them go to waste.

    EX - <PIE CHART> US TOP 10 Check 'em out http://piechart-guild.com/

  10. #10
    Dreadlord
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    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    I really don't understand how you can pass up on 3/3 Serendipity. Yes, in many cases we can predict incoming damage and start pre-casting, but it's not always that simple. Ignis is a perfect example of where even knowing when the damage is coming won't help you because if you're casting, you get interupted. Instead, I can cast a CoH and PoM while in the air and have a full stack of Serendipity already built up to start casting a hasted PoH as soon as I land. Othertimes when I'm spot healing with FH, if I notice someone gets too low for a FH to top them off, with Serendipity I can easily replace a FH with a GH and get close to twice the healing in about the same amount of time; it's similarly great for helping out the MT healers when the tank takes some quick and unexpected burst damage. Basically, my point is, we can't always heal pre-emptively, and having that nice chunk of Haste, helps me save lives.

    I also really don't see Body and Soul being useful. I get the points where you say it's useful, but as long as someone isn't being an idiot, the eye beams on Kologarn are easy to outrun, and the spash damage from Decon's Light Bomb is easily handled with a CoH targetted on him, provided the whole raid isn't clumped up. That is, those points just don't seem necessary when your raid is properly positioned and reasonably aware, and even worse, I don't like preventing my Discipline Priest from being able to shield targets at will because all my shield would give at that point is a speed boost, while his heals/absorbs around twice as much damage as mine.

    I do agree with Renew being quite good these days, but I generally don't see it as much of a raid healing tool like others have suggested. It's great if I know that someone is going to be taking fairly steady damage or I know they'll have time for it to tick up, but considering my raid makeup that often has two Shamans Chain Healing, and me casting PoH/CoH, a lot of times those Renews just get overhealed by a smart heal and a lot of it gets wasted. Instead, I normally use it for helping stablize the tanks, when I need to heal on the move, and when a Flash Heal is mostly overheal, etc. OTOH, I could see it being more useful if you tend to have more Druids with raid healing, and they can be more careful with letting your Renews tick.

    Finally, I don't understand the hate for Greater Heal from Priests these days either. Sure, it isn't the bread and butter spell that it was in BC, but with the right talents, it has great HPS and good HPM. For the same reason I argue that Discipline needs Divine Fury because without it Greater Heal is useless, even if it's only highly situational with it, it's another tool in the toolbox; it's much the same way for Holy with Greater Heal. Passing up talents like Divine Fury and Serendipity essentially completely remove that tool from your toolbox. Sure, I think Greater Heal accounts for maybe 5% of my total healing these days, but I can also say that a disproportionate number of those heals saved lives.

  11. #11
    Scarab Lord Izenhart's Avatar
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    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    Your spec as it is now is good enough, even with that 3/5 Spell Warding, if you will have mana problems, probably is because of the playstyle.

  12. #12

    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    dump spell warding and max out improved healing.

    renew is NOT your bread and butter PoH is and cast gets faster whith serendipity. PoH = FH on entire party. flash heal 600+ mana x 5= 3000 and 6sec+ cast .. PoH even non hasted is 1400 mana and 2.5 sec cast

    renew is something you toss out when the situation calls for it leave HoTs to druids.

    dump surge of light and max out divine fury so that your greater heal with serendipity is 1.3 sec cast .. or if you have WAY more hast .. can be considered insta cast.

    dump desperate prayer

    jump up your crit strike to be around 20% holy crit "using naxx gear"

    atm my goal for my priest with naxx gear is 1k int/spirit 20% crit 200 haste.

    ulduar gear plan is 1.2k int/spirit 25% crit and 300 haste

    i still need about 4 pieces of gear on my naxx list to be where i want on my baseline but overall i out heal just about any other toon i raid with except freaking druids AND i do not have alot of mana prob only during LONG exteneded fights 6min+
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...27s+Edge&n=Sou

  13. #13

    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    P.S. .. for some reason will not let me edit above post.

    try to avoid MP5 gear, the added Mp5 overall is nice BUT when you proc the holy concentration it does not get boosted.

    Dump the T7 gear the set bonus on it SUCKS. the T8 gear for holy (4) sucks for holy priest is awesome for disc priest. i only plan on having 2 pieces of the T8 just for the PoH crit bonus

  14. #14

    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    I agree that Serendipity is my biggest regret in the Renew-centered spec. As the weeks go on and we're attempting more hardmodes, I'll probably play around with shuffling the points from Body & Soul into it and see how it works out.

    I still stand by my point that Greater Heal is worthless. If someone's in danger of dying, Flash Heal gets them to a comfortable health percentage much sooner than GH. Once they're in that safe zone, it doesn't matter anymore, because the incidental raid healing will top them off. Healers are naturally paranoid, often rightfully so, but experience shows that FH as a quick save is just as effective. GH is simply not worth the 10 wasted points for the (perceived) 5% use you might get out of an attempt.

  15. #15

    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    yes as a rotational spell GH sucks. but when used/timed properly can be awesome .. why FH 1 person 4x times when you can FH 1 to get them safe then GH for the rest of it?

  16. #16

    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    Quote Originally Posted by DaruneAlbane
    dump spell warding and max out improved healing.

    renew is NOT your bread and butter PoH is and cast gets faster whith serendipity. PoH = FH on entire party. flash heal 600+ mana x 5= 3000 and 6sec+ cast .. PoH even non hasted is 1400 mana and 2.5 sec cast

    renew is something you toss out when the situation calls for it leave HoTs to druids.

    dump surge of light and max out divine fury so that your greater heal with serendipity is 1.3 sec cast .. or if you have WAY more hast .. can be considered insta cast.

    dump desperate prayer

    jump up your crit strike to be around 20% holy crit "using naxx gear"

    atm my goal for my priest with naxx gear is 1k int/spirit 20% crit 200 haste.

    ulduar gear plan is 1.2k int/spirit 25% crit and 300 haste

    i still need about 4 pieces of gear on my naxx list to be where i want on my baseline but overall i out heal just about any other toon i raid with except freaking druids AND i do not have alot of mana prob only during LONG exteneded fights 6min+
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...27s+Edge&n=Sou
    God awful gems, enchants, and gear choices.
    Terrible spec.
    No significant raiding experience.

    Only listen to this guy if your goal is to continue healing Naxx for the next 6 months.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaruneAlbane
    yes as a rotational spell GH sucks. but when used/timed properly can be awesome .. why FH 1 person 4x times when you can FH 1 to get them safe then GH for the rest of it?
    Or you can Flash them to safety, pop a Renew, and go back to your job of raid healing. Less mana, more healing, less downtime from healing everyone else.

  17. #17

    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewarrows
    God awful gems, enchants, and gear choices.
    Terrible spec.
    No significant raiding experience.

    Only listen to this guy if your goal is to continue healing Naxx for the next 6 months.
    wow someone replied in a stupid way that does not know WTF they talking about . if they knew what they talking about they would have given more info about how "god awful" my spec is since they just said AWFUL without any modifiers means they have NO idea what they talking about since they are not playing holy but disc

    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewarrows
    Or you can Flash them to safety, pop a Renew, and go back to your job of raid healing. Less mana, more healing, less downtime from healing everyone else.
    pop a flash .. hit renew .. and then ignore and let the toon die




  18. #18

    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    DarunAlbane, go read his posts again, seriously.

    He obviously does know what he's talking about. Your gems are awfull. Don't have to be a priest to see that. And if you actually read his previous posts; He linked the build he uses, and why.

    Remember to take all things in moderation (even World of Warcraft!)
    When interacting with other players a little kindness goes a long way!

  19. #19

    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    i did .. he did not specify anything wrong with my spec .. and i looked at his spec. both his disc and holy setup looks to me like he has no real idea what he doing or talking about am guessing his guild carries him as holy or he raids disc.

  20. #20

    Re: Holy mana problems :(

    Quote Originally Posted by DaruneAlbane
    i did .. he did not specify anything wrong with my spec .. and i looked at his spec. both his disc and holy setup looks to me like he has no real idea what he doing or talking about am guessing his guild carries him as holy or he raids disc.
    You think that Inner Focus is a better talent than Guardian Spirit. I don't think I really need to say anything else.

    edit: I was wrong. You say that casting Renew is a terrible idea, and have three points in Emporwered Renew. Dumping Desperate Prayer is terrible, so is having no points in Surge of Light, but having maxed out Holy Reach.

    Oh, and you have yet to even kill Ignis, on any difficulty.
    I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

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