Feral Tank Gemming Question

[Marajhane]

So I ask you the Arel00s and others who prefer agility (and seem to think we are noobs for going Stam heavy in the new Ulduar content), are you tanking those bosses I mentioned and how do you get through the burst?

answer is simple. yes and we dodge :P

[Alski]

So I ask you the Arel00s and others who prefer agility (and seem to think we are noobs for going Stam heavy in the new Ulduar content), are you tanking those bosses I mentioned and how do you get through the burst?

here go the answers for thoses bosses you mentioned you mentioned
Steelbreaker - special stam set (as stated in my earlier post)
Hodir - see steelbreaker ^
Mimiron 1st phase - CD rotation (although the war in my guild tanks this cause shield wall > barkskin and it means i get to dps)
Vezax - we run out, no point wasting healers mana when it can be avoided

tbh the burst from Steelbreaker (if FP is dispelled before it gets of a tick) and Hodirs frozen blows when using frost resist isnt really that big. Both Ignis and Razorscale hit harder
At the end of the day my healers generaly prefer me tanking (with my standard agi heavy tank gear) than our other tanks for pretty much every fight

As for Thorim's unbalancing strike & Kologarn multi stacks if something goes wrong there (tanks not switching fast enough/healers letting tank die ect) then you deserve to wipe, if you happen to be in that situation on thorim once he gets to about 12 stacks then its upto RNG whether you survive, if you get hit twice in a row with 1 being a crit its over no matter how much HP you have.

[Paskgotsheal]

I'm going to assume you have never gemmed anything different for progression and you just started raiding with naxx. If so, dont bother posting in forums you dont understand, if not, troll elsewhere

People like you are the reason i quit WoW. You come in here maybe getting OS 3 drake 10 man during a zerg and raiding up to SSC in BC and think you know everything. You apparently never bothered to read threads or learn about your class via EJ, or other personal testing. I was main tank in my guild back in BC and i gemmed for all agility then. It was even crazier then that people would argue stam > agi when agi didn't have DR! I had about 64% dodge unbuffed, with procs up I have a screenshot of 114% dodge. untouchable.

That reminds me of the rogue that tanked illidian on my horde toons server (Illidan, lol go figure).

[Vordie]

Stamina, stamina, stamina, STAMINA, STAMINAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[xebtria]

so... I don't doubt, that agi is "the" way to gem as a druid - I currently do so with my druid, too. But when everybody is praising rawr... why does rawr favour stamina then?
every item socketed with stamina is rated higher than socketed with agility... even if the actual gear which is equipped is fully gemmed for agility. I know, it's because the "dmg incoming level" (or however it's called exactly) is "T8 heroic raid"... if I switch it to T7 Heroic Raid or T8 normal raid, agility is far superior.
but why?

I'm a bit confused... :|

[Deleted]

This is why you want to be healable before everything else.
Dodge/avoidance is RNG, you can have 60% and when 3 consequential hits land you go splat.

I personally gem for survivability/threat, that is Stamina and Hit/Expertise.

You can check armory from my sig, it has updated my items but not the stats - buggy shit.

I have 37.5k hp, 39% dodge, 5.5% hit and 11,25% expertise - unbuffed stats in bear form.

For the sake of this discussion and out of curiosity yesterday I regemmed all out agility (I'm JC).
Told my healers to keep an eye out since I'll be having more avoidance but less total HP and they should be on the ball.

Unbuffed stats were:

from 39% dodge to 44% dodge
from ~37.5k hp to ~33.5k hp
slight drop in hit and expertise but nothing dramatic

Raid buffed i had ~51% dodge and 42.5k hp, compared to 45% dodge and ~48.5k hp before.

Went in Ulduar 25.
Tanked most fights NP, taking a lot less damage in total but the damage feeling more "spiky" according to my healers - nothing unexpected.
Loved the much increased crit which both gave me more threat and more shields.

But then Auriaya 2shot me within 0.7 secs, NOT in a moment where I'm feared/giving her my back.
And so did Thorim, multiple times, while we attempted hard mode - without unbalancing strike on me - we had a rotation on that etc.

Very, very frustrating.

Went back and switched gems around again (armory seems properly updated regarding most stats atm), settling stats to:
42.5% dodge unbuffed with ~35k hp
49% dodge raid buffed with ~45.5k hp

This looks more healthy and I'm looking forward to how it will go with Vezax

[Leafre]

I'm going to change my gems if I get my T8 pieces. I will still use as much agi gems I can (red slots), stamina (blue slots) and I will use JC stamina gems in yellow slots. Why? Because Ulduar items give much more agility, and I feel it will be more profitable to gem for a bit extra stamina.

[vayron]

I'm just going to say this.

Some of you can argue for weeks about whether or not agi > stam or the other way around.

The fact is this: Agi IS a better gemming option than Stamina is. Read ANY forum, blog, website, napkin math, etc on the issue and you'll see that stacking stam and only stam is just wrong. You aren't much good having a 50K health pool and 30% dodge.

Secondly, theres no reason that in Naxx25 gear you can't hit 40K+ Health (plenty for UD10/25 - barring certain special fights like Hodir) while still gemming for pure agility and keeping 45%+ dodge.

Someone a few posts up said that they noticed damage was 'spikier' after regemming for agility. That makes no sense whatsoever. The damage would've been HIGHER in gear gemmed for pure stamina and low avoidance. The only difference is you had a larger health pool to absorb that. All you're doing is putting a further drain on your healers mana supply, which in UD, considering the amount of raid damage that goes around, is limited enough.

As for Auriya 2 shotting you? Pull her properly. You got nailed by the cats pouncing. Properly LOS pull and that won't happen. If it wasn't off the pull, then I call BS on you being 2 shotted. I tank her in my threat gear (more crit/hit/expertise - lower stam) and have no trouble. Incoming damage is, oddly enough, low. Go ahead. Argue. I know it's coming.

Rawr doesn't favour stamina anymore. Well, at least not in the version I'm using (2.2.2). Every piece with an agi gem is rated higher.

To sum up, everyone here arguing in favour of stamina really hasn't got a good grasp on what's going on and how to be gearing up. Even in BC, before agi---> dodge had DR, this argument raged on. You guys must think that all the number crunchers are morons and the simulators are all written by monkeys. YOU are wrong. Bears have ONE avoidance mechanism: DODGE. Learn to use it.
(you can even argue that SD is now an 'avoidance' mechanism, which again, benefits from more agility. See a trend yet? Or are you going to start arguing that +16AP gems are the way to go now?)

Like I said earlier. There are times, both out of UD and in, where gear with higher stamina is required. We all know which fights those are and lets not debate about that. Those are exceptions to the rule, where any good tank will have a seperate set of gear specifically for those situations. In general, agility is the way to go. The sooner you get that into your head, the less painful it will be.

Can this thread be locked now please? Theres only been 40 of them.

[arel00]

As has been pointed out, there are several fights in Ulduar that have high burst damage: Steelbreaker, Hodir, Mimiron 1st phase, Vezax if you stand in for the blows, and a couple others if something goes wrong (Thorim unbalancing strike, Kologarn multi stacks), and yet others with a high portion of damage / burst coming from magical sources. As a consequence, I have been tanking the first 4 without a miss since week 1 and have somewhat done better on the others when we were under stress.

So I ask you the Arel00s and others who prefer agility (and seem to think we are noobs for going Stam heavy in the new Ulduar content), are you tanking those bosses I mentioned and how do you get through the burst?

I suggest you read my posts again. All the cutting edges and the sarcasm were addresses to the tones and expressions brought up, not the issue itself. What I did state was facts coming from long discussions with other druids

Regarding your point about the bosses:
- Steelbreaker: done, gives me no problems. The only wipes we had with me tanking were due to a slow dispeller. Now the Punch goes off usually without ticking, so there's really no burst to worry about :P
- Hodir: this is outside the issue for me I fear. Since we're using a single tank for both phases, I'm in Polar gear with full stacked stamina on it, combined with the rest of my gear that is gemmed for avoidance. This is indeed a case where big health helps, but neither me nor Alski denied it, it's a resistance fight after all
- Mimiron: I didn't notice any problems here, I'll be honest. Plasma Blast is supposed to be lived through with someone blowing a cooldown, and so far I never happened to die on it. We have a fixed rotation, and that's pretty much all.

I didn't tank the General yet, there's usually someone else. Will say more if I do it. As for the rest, Thorim, Kologarn, etc, I am safely happy with my avoidance.

The thing is, we're still talking low numbers. When you gem for survival, on a normal scope of 9-10 sockets, you'll find a difference of around 180stamina (give or take, due to combining 24sta gems and 8agi/12sta). That means roughly 2900-3000hp, once all buffs are stacked. The difference in agility means, give or take, 3% dodge when you consider the DRs, plus factoring in roughly 2% crit for SD.

My personal opinion is, at this rate of trading stats, I'll stick with avoidance.

And as I said Goodge, it doesn't give anyone the rights to question me on my progression. I did not (check back and see), I expect others to do the same.

[Deleted]

As for Auriya 2 shotting you? Pull her properly. You got nailed by the cats pouncing. Properly LOS pull and that won't happen. If it wasn't off the pull, then I call BS on you being 2 shotted. I tank her in my threat gear (more crit/hit/expertise - lower stam) and have no trouble. Incoming damage is, oddly enough, low. Go ahead. Argue. I know it's coming.

Pull her properly?

Hahahaha :-D

How about Thorim, can you teach me how to pull him properly?

And have you heard of Recount by the way, it neatly records with a time stamp what happened to you before you died?

There's no point to argue here, you're obviously determined to pull any old bullshit out of your self righteous ass and dismiss any argument I'd bring to the discussion, to prove your point.

[Leafre]

Pull her properly?

Hahahaha :-D

How about Thorim, can you teach me how to pull him properly?

And have you heard of Recount by the way, it neatly records with a time stamp what happened to you before you died?

There's no point to argue here, you're obviously determined to pull any old bullshit out of your self righteous ass and dismiss any argument I'd bring to the discussion, to prove your point.

We are trying to be helpful, but it seems you are trying to be destructive and bad mannered (do you come from WoW official forums). You don't have to belive us, neither gem yourself for agility. But when a group of ppl states their experience and you are the lonely one who cannot agree... well, maybe you are doing it wrong?

[Deleted]

We are trying to be helpful, but it seems you are trying to be destructive and bad mannered (do you come from WoW official forums). You don't have to belive us, neither gem yourself for agility. But when a group of ppl states their experience and you are the lonely one who cannot agree... well, maybe you are doing it wrong?

I'm not stating or haven't stated agility gemming is better or stamina gemming is better - read my previous postings in this thread.
Through this I've only provided input about my personal choices and preferences.

Up to now i've been gemming for stamina because I found it more comfortable to be a mana sponge than to be RNG dependent.
But since the last part was something I never actually tried in Wrath, I decided to give it a go and posted my impression and experience of it here.

The result for me personally is that I found that a balanced approach is what seems to benefit me, my playstyle, my raid group - best. This is good and a gain in my performance and I'm glad i came over to read the opinions here and thus tried this out. I posted it here because I thought it's a valid point of view which might be helpful to others.

Then out of nowhere comes a nobody (yes you are nobody and anonymous if you don't post your armory link because your raiding background and gear choices tell a lot about your playstyle/level as player) who tries to explain to me how to pull a boss properly and "call BS" on something my combat log and addons confirmed and is basically implying a L2P issue on my side - which isn't the case - simply because I posted my own impression and my own conclusion that for my case "balanced" gemming approach seems to bring the most benefit, and this differs from what this person believes to be the best.

This is destructive behaviour?

[Leafre]

You can have epics, you can have achievments, still you can be the worst tank in the World of Warcraft. As I said, that "show your armory" thing is like official WoW forums, the worst of it.

Anyway, it's offtopic.

[Alski]

(do you come from WoW official forums).

for some reason this made me laugh, Raise your paw if your perma banned from the offical forums :P

*dances and waves both paws in the air*

[Dokoran]

I gem by color as a druid tank, as I personally believe it's a healthy balance and I've yet to have any issues tanking. I haven't tanked as much as a lot of the other druids in here because I'm primarily kitty, with an off-tank gear set for if/when our off-tanks can't make a raid.

But I do gem pure agility in red slots, pure stamina in blue slots, 8crit/12stam in yellow slots. Granted I aim for bonuses only if they're helpful, if I skip a gem bonus I slot for agility.

My guild has only done up to Hodir [downed him last night] and I've main tanked Razorscale, Deconstructer and Auriaya and I've off-tanked on Razorscale, Deconstructer, Auriaya [the cats], Kologarn, Ignis [adds], Iron council.

I haven't had much difficulty with 40khp buffed and just over 40% dodge.

[vayron]

Pull her properly?

Hahahaha :-D

How about Thorim, can you teach me how to pull him properly?

And have you heard of Recount by the way, it neatly records with a time stamp what happened to you before you died?

There's no point to argue here, you're obviously determined to pull any old bullshit out of your self righteous ass and dismiss any argument I'd bring to the discussion, to prove your point.

It's not a matter of proving my point or not. Its this:
Low dodge = More damage taken.
High dodge = Less.

Its not 'any old bullshit'. Its just the way it works. Bears are designed to be itemized in a particular way for optimal performance. We have the choice to do whatever we want to with our gems/chants/gear but there are BiS pieces/BiS chants/Best gems for a reason. Not because they look cool. Because they help us perform the best.

Feel free to stack stamina on yourself all day. Doesn't do you a lot of good when your healers are struggling for mana on a long fight.
Doesn't really save you either when you take a big string of hits, which coincidentally, will obviously happen when you don't have as much dodge rating. Avoiding hits is always better than soaking them. Why do people struggle with this concept.

[vayron]

Then out of nowhere comes a nobody (yes you are nobody and anonymous if you don't post your armory link because your raiding background and gear choices tell a lot about your playstyle/level as player) who tries to explain to me how to pull a boss properly and "call BS" on something my combat log and addons confirmed and is basically implying a L2P issue on my side - which isn't the case - simply because I posted my own impression and my own conclusion that for my case "balanced" gemming approach seems to bring the most benefit, and this differs from what this person believes to be the best.

This is destructive behaviour?

I don't need to post an armory to prove anything. Maybe I'm the top ranked feral druid on my server. Or maybe I'm a level 12 mage spewing shit out my ass. The fact is you're just another person trying to argue that perhaps the pro-agi people are wrong. Yes you do state that its what works for you and all that and thats fine. We all have things that work for us because thats dependent on the other gear we have.

I think, and this is my opinion now, that the thread, the issue, and the statements made within it are generalizations. Bears thrive with higher agility. Sure if you've got gear with low agility on it (as raw stats, not gems) then you'll get even more benefit from agi, or the other way around. You could have gear with gobs of agi but low stamina and thats a necessity to build that up a bit.

What you may or may not understand, and what everyone else who comes on saying "go go stamina" fails to understand, is that there IS an optimal balance of agi/stam (and a couple other stats). Personally, I've got a couple shifting twilights in (blue sockets with agi or stam bonuses...works out perfectly), but everything else is +16/27 agi. My health raid buffed in UD25 is around 45K. Dodge sits around 45%, and once things start to proc it goes well over 50%. So...when I have a greater chance of avoiding a big hit, I'd sooner take that then sitting there soaking them up, requiring healers to bomb heal me all night.

And on a personal note, maybe I missed it, maybe I didn't but I didn't see your armory posted. Funny how a mature conversation always turns into "ZOMG SHOW YOUR ARMORY NOOB I'M BETTER THAN YOU I BET" when a point is made that implies you're doing it wrong. Yes I am implying a L2Play issue and yes I'm calling you out for pulling out the "show your armory" card. It has NOTHING to do with my armory. It has everything to do with me being right. You can argue all day that we're wrong, and even if for you, stam works because you're lacking it in gear elsewhere, that isn't the point. The thread was about optimal tank gemming. Optimal tank gemming for ferals means avoidance/threat. Not stamina. We've already got lots of that.

[Deleted]

And on a personal note, maybe I missed it, maybe I didn't but I didn't see your armory posted. Funny how a mature conversation always turns into "ZOMG SHOW YOUR ARMORY NOOB I'M BETTER THAN YOU I BET" when a point is made that implies you're doing it wrong. Yes I am implying a L2Play issue and yes I'm calling you out for pulling out the "show your armory" card. It has NOTHING to do with my armory. It has everything to do with me being right. You can argue all day that we're wrong, and even if for you, stam works because you're lacking it in gear elsewhere, that isn't the point. The thread was about optimal tank gemming. Optimal tank gemming for ferals means avoidance/threat. Not stamina. We've already got lots of that.

My armory is in my signature, you would know that if you had read my postings in the thread.

But since you're just a terrible troll, you haven't.
You're just looking to pick a fight and call people things - L2P issue, agi is better, I'm right, you're wrong, etc.

With this I've already wasted enough time replying to a troll who has probably never played a druid or seen Ulduar from the inside.

So, have a nice day

[vayron]

My armory is in my signature, you would know that if you had read my postings in the thread.

But since you're just a terrible troll, you haven't.
You're just looking to pick a fight and call people things - L2P issue, agi is better, I'm right, you're wrong, etc.

With this I've already wasted enough time replying to a troll who has probably never played a druid or seen Ulduar from the inside.

So, have a nice day

Yes. I'm the troll.

[Sunshine]

I think a general tanking philosophy is to achieve "enough" stamina, then focus on avoidance stats (agility, etc). If our gear alone (without gems) provided 100k hp, I'm pretty sure everybody would socket agi (since you'll never be 2-shot, or anything close).

In that light, the discussion of whether to gem stam or to gem agility can be seen as a disagreement as to what is "enough" stamina. So let me ask another question of you all:

What do you consider to be "enough" hp in raids? I'm talking fully raid buffed, and not a specialized case (Hodir, etc).