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  1. #1

    Opinion on Spriest

    This isn’t a QQ, just wanted to see how other people felt about the role shadow priest have taken since WoLK has came out.

    Personally I preferred the role of mana battery over DPS. It’s been said many of times, if I wanted to do Mage like damage I would have rolled a Mage. Seems they have taken the uniqueness of the classes away and just made everything blah. Personal opinion though, what’s everyone else’s?

  2. #2

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    In my eyes we've lost our mana battery role and we're not a very competative dps... The best spriest in the world who would get his dps cycle down perfectly would still not get close to the dps a warlock or mage is putting out by just tapping 2 or 3 buttons.
    Yes I know there are exceptions, and yes I know this is just generally speaking, but it is very true... Spriest dps is lacking and should be buffed...not by much, but still by some degree where we would be able to out dps a crappy played warlock/priest/DK/rogue/Retri pala.
    I've been a spriest ever since tbc came out and raided all through sunwell. Now i'm playing a PVE disc priest. I love it, dont get me wrong. But playing shadow has just lost all it's "cool" imo

  3. #3

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    Quote Originally Posted by Axedeo
    In my eyes we've lost our mana battery role and we're not a very competative dps... The best spriest in the world who would get his dps cycle down perfectly would still not get close to the dps a warlock or mage is putting out by just tapping 2 or 3 buttons.

    ... Spriest dps is lacking and should be buffed...
    This is completely untrue.

    Firstly a lot depends on how you define dps, a majority of the WoW community define dps to mean the ability to stand still for the entire encounter and not have to worry about moving out of fire and generally being 100% free to disregard any other aspect of the game to maximise their dps rotation. This is why Patchwerk parses were accepted as the best parses to compare dps and people gave little regard to other encounters.

    Fact is Patchwerk is about the only encounter where you don't have to move, switch to adds, move out of fire, dispel etc etc etc. For the 99% of other encounters there is usually some other aspect more than just nuking a target. I argue if 99% of encounters (particularly in uld) are setup this way then you can't use data from patchwerk or parses from training dummies that don't mirror the conditions of encounters.

    In a lot of encounters in Uld i'm extremely competitive, i'm usually in the top 3 and at worse top 5 or 6. Some encounters favor melee (ignis for example) and other encounters really suit my dots and ranged style of dps (Iron Council).

    Dps gets corrupted at times due to incidental AoE damage, i'm sure some people have looked at Kologarn parses and decided Melee are too OP but they get to hit both arms and the chest all at once for a decent proportion of their attacks. If you look at damage done to targets that matter you would see a lot of classes a lot closer than it looks on the surface. 3D sarth for example could be corrupted by a lot of AoE damage, DKs in particularly looked like they were way ahead of everyone but when you broke the damage done by target you saw the DK's weren't number one on each drake and a great proportion of their dps was done on adds.

    Lastly simulationcraft indicates that spriests are the 4th highest dps class when geared with BIS T8. Admittadly there are some classes not modeled in Simcraft but it has a large majority of them. As it stands we are above mages and slightly below rogues...

    You are also forgetting the advantages of the spriest spec... we bring 3% spell hit which is a much liked buff. VE has it's applications as well and replenishment is a requirement to raid (something Blizzard have indicated many times). Sure you can get those buffs elsewhere but at the end of the day any raid needs to get those buffs to raid effectively and getting them from a spriest is just as good if not better than the alternatives. Blizzards moto has been bring the player and not the class and that is exactly the case for spriests... if you're a good player there is 0 reason for a raid to exlude you.

    What this post smacks of is a wanting for something unique so raids will pick you on your unique buff rather than your ability to play. TBH that sort of request comes from players that know they are bad (you know you rely on ur class buffs for raid spots rather than your ability to play).

  4. #4

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    I miss the days of being a mana battery :[

  5. #5

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    "What this post smacks of is a wanting for something unique so raids will pick you on your unique buff rather than your ability to play. TBH that sort of request comes from players that know they are bad (you know you rely on ur class buffs for raid spots rather than your ability to play)."

    Hardly, I never was that hardcore.  My guild was still in SSC when the Litch King came out.  Shadowpriest.com has a post about it and a lot of people gave the lack of utility as a reason they quit playing their Spriest. Like I said it's all personal choice, would you rather have the DPS or the utility? 

  6. #6

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    There is no such thing as utility any more... the whole utility role was removed for LK so raids didnt need specific classes/specs in order to raid. If you dont like that then WoW isn't the game for you... there is no point trying to discuss something that doesnt exist anymore.

  7. #7

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    This is completely untrue.

    Firstly a lot depends on how you define dps, a majority of the WoW community define dps to mean the ability to stand still for the entire encounter and not have to worry about moving out of fire and generally being 100% free to disregard any other aspect of the game to maximise their dps rotation. This is why Patchwerk parses were accepted as the best parses to compare dps and people gave little regard to other encounters.
    I define dps as damage per second. Shadow priest dps is subpar. http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/classrank/7. That is actual data, not simcraft. If elemental shaman and ret palies didn't suck at dps, we'd have last place all to ourselves.

  8. #8

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    Not sure what you linked is supposed to prove other than my point... the dps varies encounter to encounter and sometimes we are very high (3rd on Yogg-Saron) and other times we are poor (Razorscale coz we have little burst damage on adds).

    Considering blizzard have stated they want to see pure dps classes having a slight advantage with dps, again I don't see what that link is trying to prove. It pretty much proves we very close to the pure dps classes and more than match it with the other hybrids.

    In my current raid i'm easily top 5 and there are some decent players in my guild.

  9. #9

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    Quote Originally Posted by Berstuck
    I define dps as damage per second. Shadow priest dps is subpar. http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/classrank/7. That is actual data, not simcraft. If elemental shaman and ret palies didn't suck at dps, we'd have last place all to ourselves.
    The stats you posted aren't valid source to judge, I see sp at vezax doing 6.7K dps, which is the number I managed to do at 10 man version. That fact is good enough for me to discredit that wmo statistic as something to take in as definite source when talking about damage. Also, Ulduar hasn't been out for a long time, people are still learning the encounters. Our damage isn't subpar, if you compare 1400 dps we did in TBC with 2.4k that a lock did (or even more), there aren't such high margins anymore.

    I'll take that WMO parse you posted - Mimiron - which is a pretty straightforward fight for all casters:

    Mage: 4,854
    Priest: 4,427

    It's 9% difference. not 50% difference, but 9%.

    I quite like our role change. Back then, we did shit dps, compared to tanks. Now, a good shadow priest does great damage and I don't feel like dead weight of the DPS part of the raid. I like the fact that no class has unique buffs. That feature alone ROCKS. No more waiting for that moonkin if we got elemental shaman. No more qq if there's no enh shammy if you got dks and hunters. No more qq if you don't have mana replenishment if you don't have sp's and you got rets. And the list goes one. The raid comp is way way better and easier to set up.

    The fact we MIGHT do a little less damage than "pure" classes doesn't bother me one bit. Some RNG luck and we are able to pop at the top. Also, I never saw raiding as contest of healing done or damage done. It was teamwork to down the puzzle known as boss. And now, we are given the means to compete and we are able to. People complaining about mages, rogues and so on just don't deserve to raid if they're so bitter.

  10. #10

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    A mage might do slightly more damage but if something goes wrong like say errr 2 healers disconnect on frozen blows, a mage cant do shit to help. A shadow priest has divine hymn to save the day, as well as being able to bubble as much as they want (what's mana?) and healing themselves for most raid damage. The shadow priest is still far more utility than a water dispenser.
    'u get constant hit by ice shit from roof so you can travel instantly all across the room'

  11. #11

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    Quote Originally Posted by Axedeo
    In my eyes we've lost our mana battery role and we're not a very competative dps... The best spriest in the world who would get his dps cycle down perfectly would still not get close to the dps a warlock or mage is putting out by just tapping 2 or 3 buttons.
    Shockingly, Blizzard seem to think that Hybrid classes should not be able to put out the same DPS as "pure" classes. But a well played Shadow Priest will always out-DPS a bad Mage or Warlock unless they completely outgear you.
    I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

  12. #12

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    Quote Originally Posted by syanid
    ...Also, I never saw raiding as contest of healing done or damage done. It was teamwork to down the puzzle known as boss. And now, we are given the means to compete and we are able to. People complaining about mages, rogues and so on just don't deserve to raid if they're so bitter.
    This is a really good point.

    And to further what I was saying, refer recent blue post:

    When you only focus on Patchwerk or training dummies or simcraft, you can come up with a number that may be higher or lower than other specs or classes. The problem is that number is meaningless in many other fights. Do you have to move? Do you have to deal with adds? Do you have to swap out gear to improve your health? Do you run OOM? Is your threat too high? Do you need to free NPCs? All of those are "real" considerations on the actual bosses you're trying to kill.

    The real questions, which have somewhat frustratingly fuzzy answers, are: Do you justify a raiding slot? Are you pulling your weight? Would your group be better off replacing you? Does the rogue beat you because your class is undertuned or because it's a perfect fight for a rogue (or because you need to L2P)?

    (btw, can someone inform me how I can quote blue posts properly instead of copy/paste? would be appreciate it.)

    So the developers of the game basically don't care what your dps is when you stand still and have nothing to worry about. Why? Because encounters aren't designed that way, the force you to do more than just stand still and not worry about anything other than pushing buttons. You can argue all you like that our patchwerk dps is low but the fact is the developers don't care and making that argument is just bashing your head against a brick wall.

    Fact is in a real Uld encounter you can get very close to the top, you just need to know how to play.

  13. #13

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    Personally I preferred the role of mana battery over DPS
    Not me. A long time ago, I created my Priest with the intent of DPSing only (was deciding between Mage, Lock, and Shadow Priest) and ended up choosing SPriest because of their interesting playstyle.

    Not that I'm complaining, because Blizzard has finally allowed us to at least be competent and not at the bottom. The same people who beat me at Patchwerk? I beat them on Ulduar meters because you actually have to micro-manage your spells and targets to jump at every opportunity to do more DPS, and that's where novice players fall behind because it's not easy mode stand and shoot Patchwerk style anymore.

    -----
    Hint:
    -----

    The only thing limiting your ability to outperform others is yourself. Anyone can memorize the standard "best dps" rotation, but if you live by the book - you're limited by the book. If you just memorize your rotations, then you can also memorize your spot on the dps meters cause it won't change. If you really want to improve, don't look at a boss encounter the same way each week. Don't stop finding ways to do better, keep trying to beat your performance from last week, even if it means trying stuff the standard "how to dps 101" guides don't talk about.

    The player who thinks like "Hmm.. next time I can stand on that certain spot so I can reach both AoE packs during phase 2 instantly" will beat the player who thinks like "I know how to dps, I cast VT, MB, DP, MF then SWP at 5 stacks then just spam MF and refresh dots"
    (This signature was removed for violation of the Avatar & Signature Guidelines)

  14. #14

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    I have to say (I don't know why) but I enjoyed being the Mana Battery i was before Wrath. It just felt like i was there doing some (albeit not that much) damage, but hell, the people in my group sure as hell appreciated that mana I gave them.

  15. #15

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    im glad we became DPS i hated being 10th on the DPS meter in BT and our utility was too strong at one point i was getting more mana from MF then what it cost
    World of Warcraft has just as much right and responsibility to create new lore just as the old Warcraft games and books did.

    Fucking deal with it.

  16. #16

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    I play a priest because I like the playstyle, the ability to swap out and heal if another player dies or disconnects (I like to think that I once saved the raid on Thorim when both healers in the gauntlet got DC and i swapped out and pressed my OP Hymn.. kept the tank up till they got back up - made it to our first kill :P)

    When it comes to dps.. well, if you know how to play and stand in a clever spot you will win, as Vexione already posted about.

    Utility > nuking if you ask me !
    A mage or a warlock cant save the day, we can!

  17. #17
    The Lightbringer Tarien's Avatar
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    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    I think people are looking at this the wrong way. Whenever I look at my DPS compared to other 'pure' classes, regardless of whether they are melee or ranged, the question I am always asking myself is, does my ability to self heal with VE, shield, disperse etc, or even drop shadow form and heal the raid in an emergency make up for a 500-1500dps difference?

    And honestly I think the answer is no.

    A guild doesn't recruit me with the idea that I can drop role mid fight and heal, the same way they don't recruit a resto druid to change form and tank. You start a fight with a set number of tanks, healers and dps with no thought that someone is going to swap role mid fight, because fights are not designed with that in mind. What they do want from a shadow priest is a) the usual: someone who doesn't stand in the void zone and die, pull aggro and die, dps the right targets and cause others to die and so on, and b) bloody good DPS.

    They aren't recruiting me in the hope that in that 1% or 0.1% of boss fights someone will be around to heal or tank when the shit hits the fan and the boss is on 1%. If the boss is on 1%, you'll get there again without needing a hybrid to quickly swap roles.

    Blizzard's decision to penalize the damage output for those of us who chose 'hybrid' classes and can adopt more than one role is a reflection on their inability to be creative and add something to 'pure' classes to make them more interesting and desirable.

    I do understand that in many guilds shadow priests are topping out and think that we are okay, I was in the top five for DPS throughout Naxx/OS/EoE in my old guild who I raided with for years. Then in the first weeks of Ulduar I raided with a world top 25 guild, and now I'm in 10-15th place. Not always, some fights I topped out. Vezax is an obvious one. Also consider that despite being a hybrid class, warriors are much closer to pure class' DPS than we are. Druids just got a buff, but they're in the same boat as us, they can DPS and then drop moonkin form and heal. Why are we constantly the red headed step child?

    I don't think we need a huge buff. I think realistically we are about 15% behind the pure classes. We do maybe 5.5k in BiS T7.5 gear on Patch, a warlock or mage can pull 6.5-7k there. Honestly the gap needs narrowing to about a 5% difference.

    Or better yet, Blizzard need to add something useful and interesting to pure classes to make up for their lack of filling more than one role, and even out the damage!
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  18. #18

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    I agree with the OP, my main used to be a shadow priest, for 2 years, I loved being a mana battery. I was the only shadow priest in guild. I had 1330 shadow dmg and hit capped, even for a mana battery I was top 5 in dps. But again the mana battery part was what I liked about it, then once wrath came, yeah the dmg got buffed, but it sucked I had to drink water more often. And they really never fixed the pvp that a spriest suffered with. So I didn't QQ i accepted what they were trying to do. And i gladly re-rolled to a DK, I still play my priest but priest is Disc now, she'll probably never see shadow again.

  19. #19

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien
    I don't think we need a huge buff. I think realistically we are about 15% behind the pure classes. We do maybe 5.5k in BiS T7.5 gear on Patch, a warlock or mage can pull 6.5-7k there. Honestly the gap needs narrowing to about a 5% difference.
    As I pointed out earlier, Patchwerk isn't a good fight to show true dps... it's a very short encounter, BL/Heroism is up for a disproportionate amount of time. Dps dont have to do anything but stand still and push dps buttons... this is the only encounter in LK where you can do that, the other 99% of encounters require dps to move, stand in buffs, switch to adds etc. Therefore you can't quote dps of an encounter that doesnt even resemble the circumstances of most other encounters.

    Let me requote a blue post:

    When you only focus on Patchwerk or training dummies or simcraft, you can come up with a number that may be higher or lower than other specs or classes. The problem is that number is meaningless in many other fights. Do you have to move? Do you have to deal with adds? Do you have to swap out gear to improve your health? Do you run OOM? Is your threat too high? Do you need to free NPCs? All of those are "real" considerations on the actual bosses you're trying to kill.

    The real questions, which have somewhat frustratingly fuzzy answers, are: Do you justify a raiding slot? Are you pulling your weight? Would your group be better off replacing you? Does the rogue beat you because your class is undertuned or because it's a perfect fight for a rogue (or because you need to L2P)?

    This blue says it perfectly and people need to stop using Patch as some form of evidence that our dps is too low. I still am in the top 5 for my Uld raid, so if you can't compete perhaps you should look inwards instead of to blizzard.

  20. #20

    Re: Opinion on Spriest

    I think you all miss a big plus with shadowpriests...
    We still have our Vampiric Embrace. Sure, it might not be awesome awesome, but it is good.
    I can do competitive dps WHILE also giving my group some heals.
    On Mimiron we but a spriest each in the groups that lacked holy priests, and it turned out to be quite useful.

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