Effective health V. Avoidance

[Omen321]

49,800 hp

your just hurting your healers with that much HP .. making it harder for healers to heal you

that's why there is a diffrence between Effective Health and Un-Effective Health .. the healers are basically healing dead heath that they shouldn't have to heal.


thats besides the point just looked at your armory one question .. why do you use 275 HP instead of 22Def on chest and 22Agi on cloak it will help you more int eh long run .. 275 HP is not worth w/e dodge / parry you will get from the extra def and agi .. (im way to lazy to do math)

[Talamare]

From what I noticed its pretty easy for healers to heal huge hp amounts, considering their heals crit for like 20-30k

[Nyanmaru]

Try this one tirsie:
for those that fear malignant links http://preview.tinyurl.com/oqxw86 or as direct link http://tinyurl.com/oqxw86

Shush Omen, don't hate the meat shields! I'll be one once I get the gear too :P

I sit at ~45k HP buffed and I get 30% less overheal than the paladin sitting at 39k, people learned that I like the few extra HP for DS-Healing threat and aim at keeping me between 80-90% all the time It's fun for them to time their heals instead of spamming and keeps them more awake.

[tirsie]

um yea. the fact that I have more health doesn't necessarily mean that the healers will be healing more as any dmg that I take should be healed regardless of my current health. Tanks tank, Healers heal. For example no matter if I take a 20k hit while sitting at 49k hp or if I take that same hit while sitting at 42khp that value still needs to get healed. With my current HP I have a much better chance at survival for back to back hits than the tank sitting at 42k. With that said theres really no justification for calling any health "un-effective" as the truth of the matter is you want to be as far away from zero heath as possible. Also on most fights I usually just have one pally dedicated to me with the rest of the healers healing whatever it is they heal with me occasionally getting heals from other healers who are just twiddling their fingers. We have never wiped because healers were out of mana.

As far as the heath and agil chants on the chest/cloak I read on multiple EJ threads that I am too lazy to look up again that HP > avoidance > Mitigation for every possible chant. I am already 15 defense over cap and well the number of avoidance I would have received with the chest enchant was really really low and iirc would suffer from diminishing returns.

[Vorpal]

Don't forget that bigger health pools will decrease overhealing, Healers generaly overheal so their mana won't be affected much by healing for much more than we actually need to they waste mana and casting time.

[Daeren]

55% - 65% = 10% diff

10 % / 45% (chance of getting hit) = 22,22%
Do the maths right please.

Anyhow, Tirsie is absolutely right. Bigger health pools are less straining on healers, since you have a bigger HP pool, which means you can take back to back hits, and be kept up with HoTs and only needing reactive heals.

Because of costs of avoidanc,e as I outlined earlier in my posts, it's quite expensive. So let's an example:
An example, you have the two tanks I outlined earlier. 46 and 34 k health raid buffed, and 55% and 65% avoidance. Boss hits for 25k. Both start off at 100% health.
The one with 46k gets down to 21k health, and thereby only requires 4-5k heal to be able to withstand another punch back-to-back, although this has a higher chance of occuring comapred to the high avoidance tank.
The one with 34k does have a lower chance of getting a back-to-back hit, and goes down to 9k health, and needs 16k healing done before next hit.
Although that back-to-back isn't all that common, the avoidance means that healers will heal you less on average (else, why bother having avoidance), but sometimes, you will get hit back-to-back no matter what, and then you better have healed that 16k up before next hit.
Also, avoidance does not help vs plasma blast, fusion punch or running from Vezax. Oh shit, those are the things actually killing the maintank most of the times

Bigger HP = less strain on healers, since they can time their heals much more relaxed, and actualyl leads to mana conservation. Avoidance only gets good when you can virtually eliminate 3 hits or more in a row, but you can't do that with the current gear.

[Phyta]

w/e Mitigation Avoidance .. i used a different word .. if you wrnt smart enough to figure that one out there is no help

You used a completely different reference term. You may have meant avoidance but said mitigation, two very different stats. Yes you CAN stack mitigation although possibly not the best choice, eg: Armor to gloves, Armor to cloak, armor trinketsx2 and use Ironshield pots, but thats probly not to viable.

Mitigation is just what it says, it helps MITIGATE (meaning reduce) the 100% of the incoming damage, shaved right off the top, Shield Block Value would come into this category.

Avoidance is your dodge/parry (which im sure you know), 100% seperate from mitigation. And in NO way effects the incoming damage itself, its simple on a roll for hit/miss - 100% or 0%. No partial dodges/parries here. Its just a TRUE or a FALSE value.

[Number]

/cast raise dead
/cast death pact

good macro.

if youre taking big hits and get nervous just use it. there are things you can do on your own to help out regardless of what spec you are.

personally, i tank as frost. i have  32k+ hp 28.0% dodge 18.5% parry and 8.5% chance to not be hit. once i get black ice i will have over 29% dodge. these stats are with HoW only.

anyways, specing blood or frost or even unholy is all dependant on your raiding role. if i am going to OT i would prefer avoidance. primarily because it will take some of the attention off me and let the healers keep a better eye on the MT. as MT i would prefer the stam because ulduar bosses can hit hard and 2-3 in a row ( if rng is not going in your favor ) is a wipe.

[velourea]

You'll always have the chance of avoiding a bunch and have more luck than usual.
You can't always survive a few extreme hits. You really want a big health pool to stand more chance for the unexpected.
Sure you might get lucky more often by avoiding enough times in a row for your next heal. But is that really what you want to go for? I doubt anyone does.

I'm not saying avoidance isn't excellent but when you're having healers around you'll just benefit a lot more from a little less avoidance and way more health instead of it.

Imagine having 126k health for some strange reason. The only way you'll die is when you got really slacking healers.

Just compare panic buttons such as Last Stand and Shield Wall versus trinkets that give you a lot avoidance for a short period of time.
The only way the last would be the most effective is when you really can't take any hit at all anymore.
And being able to take hits is what a tank is all about, amiright?

[Vorpal]

I don't really think this conversation has a point so far. Pretty much because of the lack of choice we face with Ulduar gear, or gear in general if you must. We don't have a lot of choices. There is only one tier, one item per slot without block and top enchants for each piece of gear.

The only things we can argue for are Gems and Stoneguard Vs 4% parry. My point is that a person gemming full stamina and a person gemming full avoidance with the same gear won't see much difference in their survivability, if they notice any at all.

Ofc Stoneguard Vs Parry is something else, it does make a difference with Parry being better imo.

[Number]

so you put defense gems in all your gear? what is stonegaurd? Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle gives a straight 25 defense, not rating.

[archform]

but then bliz is saying no to huge health pools *druids*

[Vorpal]

so you put defense gems in all your gear? what is stonegaurd? Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle gives a straight 25 defense, not rating.

  Yeah it's Stoneskin my bad 8), i actually put Stamina in all my sockets unless the socket bonus is stamina in which case i put parry-stamina, just because i have a lot more dodge than parry and i spec into spell deflection, or defence-stamina gems.

  On the runechants, 4% parry is better than 25 defence and 2% stamina, the reason is simply because it is applied after diminishing returns. And i never said it's giving defence rating now did i.

but then bliz is saying no to huge health pools *druids*

Blizzard is just making all tanks warrior like since 2.4

[Number]

i know you didnt say it gave rating, i'm telling you because you didn't know apparently. how is chance to be missed/dodge/parry and 2% stam worse than 4% parry?

[Vorpal]

Well, because 25 defence is less avoidance than 4%. Also i am quite sure that the avoidance from 25 defence, since it's not direct avoidance, will be affected by diminishing returns while the 4% parry stays 4%.

...short wowwiki surf...There it is.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Defence

Each point of +Defense skill adds 0.04% to the chance to be Missed, to Block, to Dodge and to Parry for players. This means +25 Defense will grant you an extra 1% Miss, Parry, Dodge, and Block. Guess what, that's 3% for us ;D

2% Stamina, if you have 30k health it's 600 heath. So it's either 600 health and 3% avoidance that suffers diminishing or 4% Pure avoidance that does not suffer from diminishing. Well if i am wrong you can correct me.

[nalcarya]

So you actually hit 540 Defense while stacking Stamina/Parry and without RotSG? I'm just wondering, since in mostly 213 iLevel stamina-gemmed Tank-Gear and WITH RotSG I hit something like 548 Defense... you'd need at least 565 to change from RotSG to the 4% Parry-Rune.

Also RotSG increases your Stamina by 2%, not your health. Just wanted to correct that.

And as far as I'm informed, dodge rating scales way better than parry, so if you're into avoidance gemming you'd better use dodge instead of parry. Someone correct me if this is wrong.

btw I'm sure most of those -s are used utterly wrong. Please forgive me *_*

[milo]

This part is good advice to follow. Don't agree with the other bits though, especially when you mention rune tap. Rune tap is worthless for a tank.

I can drop a 10k rune tap with vampiric up. Not exactly worthless for tanks. Plus glyphed it helps out on tantrums and other aoe damage. Not a total necessity, but definitely not worthless.

[Vorpal]

So you actually hit 540 Defense while stacking Stamina/Parry and without RotSG? I'm just wondering, since in mostly 213 iLevel stamina-gemmed Tank-Gear and WITH RotSG I hit something like 548 Defense... you'd need at least 565 to change from RotSG to the 4% Parry-Rune.

Also RotSG increases your Stamina by 2%, not your health. Just wanted to correct that.

And as far as I'm informed, dodge rating scales way better than parry, so if you're into avoidance gemming you'd better use dodge instead of parry. Someone correct me if this is wrong.

btw I'm sure most of those -s are used utterly wrong. Please forgive me *_*

Um, did i say i am using it? I said that it's better not that i can use it.

About 2% stamina my bad it's even less than 600:P

About Dodge Vs Parry, i said i am speced into spell deflection and my parry is kinda low so that prety much says it all.

And i am Greek, i can't use english that well, sorry

[Strykzor]

I dont play a DK but if its anything like other tanks.

EH is better if your healers are geared.
A mix of Avoidance and EH is good for mediocre geared healers.

Both EH and Avoidance will keep you alive, its just it will take just a little bit more from the healers to top up a tank with 45k rather than 40k

[Omen321]

ok lets take patchwerk in example

10man infact just because its 1 OT not 2 (with 25man buffs)

imagine he hits for 30k like most Ulduar bosses do

this is how the chat log would go if your stacking more stam then avoidance


**** was hit for - 30k
**** was healed for - 20k
**** was hit for - 30k
**** was hit but hit was parried
**** was healed for - 30k
**** was hit for - 30k
**** was healed for - 10k
**** was hit for 30k
**** has died


now somone stacking both stam and avoidance
**** was hit but hit was parried
**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was hit for 30k
**** was healed for 30k
**** was hit but hit was parried
**** was hit for 30k
**** was healed for 20k
**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was healed for 10k
**** was hit but hit was dodged




honestly it doesn't matter how fast your healers are or how good .. if the boss is hitting to hard and to fast .. like patchwerk ..your gonna die if your stacking ALOT more stam then avoidance .. because when im tanking PW all i see is

**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was hit for 30k
**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was hit but hit was dodged
**** was hit but hit was dodged