Warrior 51 pt Tanking Talent

[Roberek]

I believe that our tanking 51 point talent should be either:

A) Revamped
or
B) Removed

Why? Because shockwave is pretty much useless against bosses. Yes, it does some damage, but the stun mechanic is pretty much wasted.

Its easy to see that this 51 pt talent was meant for us to AoE tank trash better, while the other classes still produce much higher AoE threat than use.

Yes, I do admit that it has its uses on some bosses, Razorscale, but half way through the fight, that usefullness fades away.

My point: We should have a 51 point talent that we can take advantage of in every single fight.

Lets compare the 51pt tanking talents of the other classes:

Paladin
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=53595
A 3pt cleave with 4 times your main hand's DPS

Druid
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50334
A 3pt cleave with no CD and fear immunity

Death Knight
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49184
A radial AoE with a disease glyph
or
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49028
9 second possible seperate weapon mirroring the DK at half DMG

If you compare its easy to see that the Warrior 51pt talent is under par.

[Macktruck]

Our paladin Hammer of the Righteous is crap dps for single-target tanking. It hits for like 2500 every 6 seconds. Only reason it's good is it's part of our normal rotation. Just like Shockwave, Hammer is an aoe tanking ability just like every other ability. Deal with it.

[Hhavok]

I think they were aiming for something that was considerably better than the arms 51 point talent that nerfs all damage by 10%

Personally, I like it. Warriors are already strong for single target threat and survivability. We needed something for large amounts of heroic dungeon trash pulling, and that's a nice add-on to thunderclap and demoralizing shout.

[Cheevo]

Personally I think Shockwave is fine. Warriors needed a more effective way to aoe tank, and whats better than an un-capped aoe which stuns? Its also both great for pvp and pve. Yes its limited on its cone effect and for the most part bosses can't be stunned but meh. I have no problems with threat so it doesn't bother me.

Also, Berserk for druids has a 3 min cd.

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50334

[alt-ithist]

Druid.

Feral 51 is pretty sweet for tanking, wont argue with you there. nice burst aggro generator

Pally.

Hammer of the rightous while nice isnt as great as you make it sound, 4x you main hand damage isnt much when considering pally have horrible HORRIBLE main hand damage, their threat comes from magic damage so that uber 4x damage crit for about 2k with average gear.

DK.

Blight isnt special, constant aoe threat to keep adds of healer but thats about it wich is suited for 5mans or Naxx more then anything. It doesnt do much on boss fights wich is what you are addressing.

Dancing weapon isnt a tanking ability.

[Roberek]

Our paladin Hammer of the Righteous is crap dps for single-target tanking. It hits for like 2500 every 6 seconds. Only reason it's good is it's part of our normal rotation. Just like Shockwave, Hammer is an aoe tanking ability just like every other ability. Deal with it.

Its well known that pallies are an AoE tanking class, none takes a pally for single target threat, the real big part of this talent is the cleave, and that dmg depends on your weapon.
Besides, shockwave does a hell of ALOT less damage than that.

I think they were aiming for something that was considerably better than the arms 51 point talent that nerfs all damage by 10%

Personally, I like it. Warriors are already strong for single target threat and survivability. We needed something for large amounts of heroic dungeon trash pulling, and that's a nice add-on to thunderclap and demoralizing shout.

I fail to see what the Arms 51 point talent has to do with this, and we arent strong for survivability, compare us to the high health of druids and the avoidance of DKs along with their CDs. And for god sakes, how the hell can you justify a talent says its good for heroics, raid bosses are the real challenge and that is when a classe's meddle is tested.

Personally I think Shockwave is fine. Warriors needed a more effective way to aoe tank, and whats better than an un-capped aoe which stuns? Its also both great for pvp and pve. Yes its limited on its cone effect and for the most part bosses can't be stunned but meh. I have no problems with threat so it doesn't bother me.

Also, Berserk for druids has a 3 min cd.

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50334

If you want ot talk about PvP, tell me why there are no Prot warriors in Arena, Tyvm.
And were still the lowest on the totem pole in AoE tanking, its more than easy for the other clases to out AoE tps us. And a stun is real useful against bosses, a 51 point talent should be useful in ALL situations.

Druid.

Feral 51 is pretty sweet for tanking, wont argue with you there. nice burst aggro generator

Pally.

Hammer of the rightous while nice isnt as great as you make it sound, 4x you main hand damage isnt much when considering pally have horrible HORRIBLE main hand damage, their threat comes from magic damage so that uber 4x damage crit for about 2k with average gear.

DK.

Blight isnt special, constant aoe threat to keep adds of healer but thats about it wich is suited for 5mans or Naxx more then anything. It doesnt do much on boss fights wich is what you are addressing.

Dancing weapon isnt a tanking ability.

1) Thank you for agreeing with me
2) Its not main hand damage, its main hand DPS, which means other aspects come into play, please argue when you know the facts
3) A radial AoE is ALOT better than a frontal cone AoE which you have to aim
4) Deep blood is a viable tanking spec for DKs, so you can consider it.

[Lór]

Shockwave is fine. It's also a buff to our single target threat and a fantastic utility spell for many bossfights. There is no other spell that generates as much burst threat as shockwave. It's perfect for encounters with adds or mobs, that can be stunned.
Just think about Ulduar bosses.
Freya. You're able to stun Detonating Lashers, Ancient Water Spirit(interrupt charge with stun), Stormlasher.

No change needed.

[Roberek]

Shockwave is fine. It's also a buff to our single target threat and a fantastic utility spell for many bossfights. There is no other spell that generates as much burst threat as shockwave. It's perfect for encounters with adds or mobs, that can be stunned.
Just think about Ulduar bosses.
Freya. You're able to stun Detonating Lashers, Ancient Water Spirit(interrupt charge with stun), Stormlasher.

No change needed.

Id appreciate it if youd actually read the thread rather than the title, havign it be useful in 5 out of all of the ulduar fights does not make it a good talent, and its only good TPS when you have adds to tank, and the amount of mass mobs for ulduar trash isnt that large. Popping it during a boss like XT is really a waste of GCD and you cant use it to help with healbots if your tanking. Your trying to say an AoE ability is a boost to our single target threat? L2P

[Cheevo]

If you want to talk about PvP, tell me why there are no Prot warriors in Arena, Tyvm.

Last time I checked.....arena doesnt make up 100% of WoW's PvP.

[Fleshpeeler]

Okay I do agree with you that a 51 pt talent should be useful in all situations. It would be nice to have an ability that increased our survivability during a boss fight or gave us a tremendous boost of threat on those single target bosses in ulduar.

Its true that we are not the best aoe tanks, and in raids where there is alot of aoe trash we sometimes are sitting on the sidelines while our pally/dk counterparts are doing the lions share of tanking.

However thats part of being a protection warrior. We have limitations. That is why I enjoy this class so much. It is not just easy mode tanking, alot of the situations that other classes breeze through are difficult for us and frankly I enjoy the challenge. Our shockwave is what you make of it. Its meant for aoe, but as stated above it can be a great boost to single target threat. In fact if your geared correctly it can generate as much as a crit shield slam. Which in turn means it is really not a waste of a GC.

So in closing let me say this, truly great players don't sit around and pray for a change to their talent tree. They make their talents work for them in any encounter they take part in and excel

[Roberek]

Okay I do agree with you that a 51 pt talent should be useful in all situations. It would be nice to have an ability that increased our survivability during a boss fight or gave us a tremendous boost of threat on those single target bosses in ulduar.

Its true that we are not the best aoe tanks, and in raids where there is alot of aoe trash we sometimes are sitting on the sidelines while our pally/dk counterparts are doing the lions share of tanking.

However thats part of being a protection warrior. We have limitations. That is why I enjoy this class so much. It is not just easy mode tanking, alot of the situations that other classes breeze through are difficult for us and frankly I enjoy the challenge. Our shockwave is what you make of it. Its meant for aoe, but as stated above it can be a great boost to single target threat. In fact if your geared correctly it can generate as much as a crit shield slam. Which in turn means it is really not a waste of a GC.

So in closing let me say this, truly great players don't sit around and pray for a change to their talent tree. They make their talents work for them in any encounter they take part in and excel

I think the problem with our class at the moment is that the cons outweigh the pros. And the 51 point talent doesnt help. And that last part, WoW, you do understand that the ENITRE GAME is controlled by blizzard, if your having trouble AoE tanking, for example, but you have no AoE tanking abilites, you can add a spell into the game. SKill only goes so far, you should know that if you have played this game before.

[Cheevo]

Id appreciate it if youd actually read the thread rather than the title, havign it be useful in 5 out of all of the ulduar fights does not make it a good talent, and its only good TPS when you have adds to tank, and the amount of mass mobs for ulduar trash isnt that large. Popping it during a boss like XT is really a waste of GCD and you cant use it to help with healbots if your tanking. Your trying to say an AoE ability is a boost to our single target threat? L2P

I single tank all the Pummelers or whatever theyre called on XT. Dunno about you but that stun every 17 seconds (glyphed) helps with my survivability, especially if I get http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=63018. I've never looked at shockwave and said it could be buffed. I think its fine.

[Roberek]

I single tank all the Pummelers or whatever theyre called on XT. Dunno about you but that stun every 17 seconds (glyphed) helps with my survivability, especially if I get http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=63018. I've never looked at shockwave and said it could be buffed. I think its fine.

Can you tell me how shockwave helps you when your tankign the boss, Im tired of people not reading this thread.

[Fleshpeeler]

Alright rob well I can see that your not going to budge on this subject and at this point your ignoring anyone with a different opinion than you have and basically telling us all how stupid we are. If you want to go beat up something and take ur frustration about your talents out I would suggest a target dummy in your capital city.

[Lór]

Id appreciate it if youd actually read the thread rather than the title, havign it be useful in 5 out of all of the ulduar fights does not make it a good talent, and its only good TPS when you have adds to tank, and the amount of mass mobs for ulduar trash isnt that large. Popping it during a boss like XT is really a waste of GCD and you cant use it to help with healbots if your tanking. Your trying to say an AoE ability is a boost to our single target threat? L2P

It is, because you use it on cd, when SS, Revenge, Conc blow is on CD, cause it generates more threat than Devastate. In addition a 51 pts talent has not to be overwhelmingly good in every single situation. It's very useful to counter a major weakness of the warrior class, AE tanking in general and burst AE threat in certain situations. Furthermore it works as a good utility spell in many fights, trash and boss encounters. Freya was just an example. But if you look closely at other encounters, you would see, that there are many situations, where shockwave is useful. A direct comparison to the 51 pts talents of other tanking classes is not very productive, because of the different talent trees and skills. That means all tanking classes have their strengths and weaknesses and a 1:1 comparison of skills is rarely effective.

Instead of your l2p argument, I'll suggest, that you explain, why warriors need another 51 pts talent. Your stun argument does not count, because that's not the single purpose and effect of that skill. It's useful for every encounter, it's useful for threat and provides utility, depending on the encounter more or less.

You want opinions, that is mine.

Btw may be you're so frustrated, because you're stuck on Council and Kologarn?

[FacelessAngel333]

Druid.

Feral 51 is pretty sweet for tanking, wont argue with you there. nice burst aggro generator

Pally.

Hammer of the rightous while nice isnt as great as you make it sound, 4x you main hand damage isnt much when considering pally have horrible HORRIBLE main hand damage, their threat comes from magic damage so that uber 4x damage crit for about 2k with average gear.

DK.

Blight isnt special, constant aoe threat to keep adds of healer but thats about it wich is suited for 5mans or Naxx more then anything. It doesnt do much on boss fights wich is what you are addressing.

Dancing weapon isnt a tanking ability.

You left out the best DK 51! Howling Blast is badass for tanking...not as good as oblit for single target, but amazing for AoE.

Back to the OP. I played a warrior for years before changing to a DK in LK. I MTed for my BT/SWP guild for a loooooong time and I loved shockwave! Granted if you take the past into consideration lvl60 Shield Slam, lvl70 Devastate, it's not quite as glamorous...But I find it to be a useful ability. Absolutely necessary? No. Better than putting that last point there than in some marginal 3-5 pt talent? Definitely yes.

Should/could it be better? Probably, but Blizz isn't in the business of paying attention to non-OP warrior specs.

[Sausagefan]

Can you tell me how shockwave helps you when your tankign the boss, Im tired of people not reading this thread.

Actually, people have read this thread, you just aren't hearing what you want to hear :P

Shockwave is a star AoE tanking ability for any boss with adds. It makes Freya, Thorim, XT-002 and other encounters much easier. On single targets, it's a net DPS and threat increase to use it while main tanking.

This isn't a new thing; many 51 points are, at best, situational or a small increase in performance.

And it seems you haven't actually played a DK since 3.1; Gargoyle is the new 51 point Unholy talent. That's not exactly tanking :P

[Kazie]

Random whining makes my head hurt

[bals]

Can you tell me how shockwave helps you when your tankign the boss, Im tired of people not reading this thread.

because it's more threat than a devastate when everything else is on cd

[Tinno]

Just to notify, the only DK tanks actually taking the 51 point talents are the Frost specced tanks (Howling Blast), DRW and Gargoyle just isn't worth it as a tank, they might only be useful on a full nuke boss where you need as much dps as possible....