Redesign subtlety?

[Snopptrollet]

Herro!
I've been thinking that the Subtlety tree might need a redesign. Why? Well, it isn't that stable nor viable anymore imo.
It seems like people are mostly using it as a filler tree, and seldomly go that deep into the spec at all. Sure there are some who go deep down all the way to Shadow Dance, and a bunch of people who use the HAT spec. But quite frankly - those specs have their uses, but are they really comparable to other specs?

Shadow Dance has its nichè - that is great, but it's honestly quite bad when it comes to PvE at high levels. It works a bit in pvp aswell, but again - not as good in high level pvp. It is quite situational aswell.

Honor Among Thieves is brutally bad when you aren't grouped. And in a raid I find it quite silly - the 3 points alone spent on HAT removes almost all Rogue mechanics to make it almost all about using Eviscerate whenever the combo counter is high enough.
To me it's all about those 3 talent points, while the rest of the points aren't as important. I could bet that the 3 points are worth more dps in a raid compared to the 68 other points. I don't have the math to support that bet, but you get the idea.
Too much automation in my opinion.

The rest of the tree has some nice pvp-utility talents and some attempts for pve improvements, but all in all it's flawed. The pvp-utility talents have their use but if a talent tree isnt supposed to be solely for pvp, then the utility talents take up too much space, and picking them up makes you miss out on too many things that make you viable in the everyday playing. The tree is simply way too situational.


Any thoughts? Do you agree? Do you disagree?

[Sicarius]

Yep

I made some suggestions, you can find on main page rogue forums.

[Arnan]

The subtlety suffers, as you say, from a horrible inbalance in the point distribution. Taking a quick look at a sub tree, around 15 points are pure filler. Compare this to combat or mutilate where you have 0-3 fillers in your tree and the problem of the spec becomes obvious. Though as you say, the biggest problem is that HaT is viable one place, and one place only, in a stacked group in a 25 man raid... Obviously a problem for anyone who likes 10-mans or heroics
That being said, I don't think it is impossible to make it work without completely redesigning it! But some work is needed

[Shimata]

Totally agree. Though serrated blades with rupture glyph and 4pc T8 is kind of nice. But the whole tree is lackluster.

[Sicarius]

The subtlety suffers, as you say, from a horrible inbalance in the point distribution. Taking a quick look at a sub tree, around 15 points are pure filler. Compare this to combat or mutilate where you have 0-3 fillers in your tree and the problem of the spec becomes obvious. Though as you say, the biggest problem is that HaT is viable one place, and one place only, in a stacked group in a 25 man raid... Obviously a problem for anyone who likes 10-mans or heroics
That being said, I don't think it is impossible to make it work without completely redesigning it! But some work is needed

HaT is awesome get a clue?

[Arnan]

HaT is awesome get a clue?

You'll have to be more specific, you mean does awesome damage? Yeah, in a 25 it might, but that is exactly what I said?

[Sicarius]

You'll have to be more specific, you mean does awesome damage? Yeah, in a 25 it might, but that is exactly what I said?

For PvE it owns, For PvP it's best thing to have after ShS.

[Melonberry]

Are you claiming HAT isn't good because all you do is spam eviscerate? Does this mean assassination isn't good because all you do is spam mutilate?

[Arnan]

Are you claiming HAT isn't good because all you do is spam eviscerate? Does this mean assassination isn't good because all you do is spam mutilate?

If all you did in assassination was to spam mutilate and you spent half your points on useless filler, then yes, it would be.

For PvE it owns, For PvP it's best thing to have after ShS.

It doesn't "own" PvE - I will go out on a limb and guess that you have never used it anything but 25 mans, cos then for sure you would know how much it doesn't own anything. Perhaps except from your tears.

[Sicarius]

It doesn't "own" PvE - I will go out on a limb and guess that you have never used it anything but 25 mans, cos then for sure you would know how much it doesn't own anything.

lol 5 man heroics serious buissnes? and if you do 10 man, no1 stops you from going mut or combat.

HaT is awesome and is the only thing that makes sub remotely viable.

[Melonberry]

HAT normally uses Rupture and Slice and Dice as well, same as every other spec. They just end up with a ton more finishers. I don't see much more useless filler in subtlety than the other trees.

Maybe I'm completely missing something. Everything seems fine, the spec works in both pve and pvp (Not solo, but spamming hemo should get you through those lvl 77 non elites...or fan), and it is different than the other 2 specs. Would you like it to be a copy of combat or assassination or something?

[Snopptrollet]

Yep

I made some suggestions, you can find on main page rogue forums.

I looked through them, but they are quite specific and not really touching the overwhelming amount of utilities of the spec so I don't think it would solve that much.

Subtlety is also a dangerous tree to tamper with since it has so many situational abilities. Buff it too much and the rogue can become impossible in pvp every time the situational abilities are ready - leaving a moaning mob spamming the forums. And with the talents for Backstab and Ambush + Shadow Dance it can become quite dangerous if it gets buffed too much to be viable as DPS in PVE aswell.

Imo HAT would have to go - I don't see how that talent can be balanced properly tbh, and it changes the rogue mechanics completely in a bad way.

I wouldn't really remove the utilities though - I'd like to see them being used more but somehow give them synergies with PvE-functions that doesn't really hurt PvP too much.
Curse of Doom can't be used on players - why not make some of the abilities/effects not work in PvP for the rogue then, maybe?

Giving Master of Subtlety an extra function such as a chance to proc that you count as being in stealth for 6sec after using Backstab on a mob for instance. (Not working on players/pets. Sort of like a chance to get a short proc of Shadow Dance).

Just to illustrate what I mean with synergies with other abilities.

[Sicarius]

Giving Master of Subtlety an extra function such as a chance to proc that you count as being in stealth for 6sec after using Backstab on a mob for instance. (Not working on players/pets. Sort of like a chance to get a short proc of Shadow Dance).

Just to illustrate what I mean with synergies with other abilities.

Very nice ideas

[Snopptrollet]

HaT is awesome and is the only thing that makes sub remotely viable.

This is exactly what I mean - HAT is silly. Awesome or not, too much in the Subtlety tree revolves around those 3 talent points spent on HAT. And this isn't about HAT, this is about Subtlety as a whole. As you said - HAT is the only thing that makes Subtlety a viable PvE spec for instance, which kind of shows how flawed the tree is. That isn't awesome.

HAT normally uses Rupture and Slice and Dice as well, same as every other spec. They just end up with a ton more finishers. I don't see much more useless filler in subtlety than the other trees.

Maybe I'm completely missing something. Everything seems fine, the spec works in both pve and pvp (Not solo, but spamming hemo should get you through those lvl 77 non elites...or fan), and it is different than the other 2 specs. Would you like it to be a copy of combat or assassination or something?

HAT also changes the whole mechanic of combo point generating moves - compared to other specs it revolves around a passive talent, rather than player control/abilities.
There are alot of utility/filler talents in Subtlety compared to the other specs. Most of which are very situational, making them useless when the situation isn't suiting.

[Sicarius]

This is exactly what I mean - HAT is silly. Awesome or not, too much in the Subtlety tree revolves around those 3 talent points spent on HAT. And this isn't about HAT, this is about Subtlety as a whole. As you said - HAT is the only thing that makes Subtlety a viable PvE spec for instance, which kind of shows how flawed the tree is. That isn't awesome.

Sub was never supposed to be a PvE tree mate, it's pvp spec and HaT makes it viable for PvE be thankfull. Sub however needs PvP buffs

[DrJones]

I would have to agree with Melonberry, subtlety is, more or less, fine as it is.
Is it not optimal for one talent to make the whole tree viable? Propably, but it's way better, than the tree not working at all, plus this way you have really nice utility along the way.
Is HaT an awfull, evil talent that destroys whole of WoW because you are using a different playstyle? No.

As rogues we have 3 viable PvE Trees, not every other class can say that for themselves.
Redesigning something, just because you don't like the way it works, possibly affecting many specs is a bad idea.
Also nerfing the hell out of HaT (or removing it) since it does too much, but instead buffing every other talent in the tree, while keeping the utility it offers is something that will never happen. You can either redesign the tree into something awfully boring no one will play, or leave it as it is, awesome... for some of us.

The tree is, for the moment, fine as it is. HaT is a viable spec and with the right group-stacking can out-dps the other specs, while still having drawbacks that make you don't want to simply jump to HaT for the more dps it can offer, unless you are sure they won't hold you back.
And you can play it in 5-mans and 10-mans as well (and do ok damage), just take care not to walk in with .. well people not critting really much.

[Snopptrollet]

Sub was never supposed to be a PvE tree mate, it's pvp spec and HaT makes it viable for PvE be thankfull. Sub however needs PvP buffs

Then again, they have said that a tree isn't supposed to be for pvp only etc. Which I agree with. I think it's just that the utility talents have lived on since level 60, and that they have added things but never really adjusted what was good back in the days, to be viable now 20 levels later.

[Sicarius]

Then again, they have said that a tree isn't supposed to be for pvp only etc. Which I agree with. I think it's just that the utility talents have lived on since level 60, and that they have added things but never really adjusted what was good back in the days, to be viable now 20 levels later.

Who said that? blizz? well, Sub is viable for PvE so why you whining? Sub has issues in pvp...

[Trample]

I find sub. great for PvP ! I'm 17/0/54 and I love that spec, particularly in BGs.

[Snopptrollet]

You can either redesign the tree into something awfully boring no one will play, or leave it as it is, awesome... for some of us.

Why not redesign it into something fun that people will play, while still being awesome and not alike the other specs?
Don't have to remove or change every talent in the tree for that to happen.

Btw, you didn't give a reason to why Subtlety is a fine spec, just talked about that HAT is "fine". No real reasoning why it is, just that it is "fine".

Who said that? blizz? well, Sub is viable for PvE so why you whining? Sub has issues in pvp...

Point me to the whine please, because my intention is not to whine but to talk about Subtlety as a talent tree.

Yeah I'm pretty sure there is some blue post about it somewhere.

Btw, if Subtlety is a PvP spec. Why is it "viable" in PvE and not in PvP?

I find sub. great for PvP ! I'm 17/0/54 and I love that spec, particularly in BGs.

That's great! But you are one of few. Do you often find that you are being held back alot by cooldowns though? I mean if you have to wait for the right situation to appear first - thus liking BGs more since there are more to choose from.

EDIT: Just said "though" too many times.