Rets Do too much damage? Debate!

[Zuthos]

I've gone Ret this season. I have only done my real arenas today. But before I did arenas, I spent two days reading about how everyone is bitching that Rets do too much damage, their burst is too high, please nerf them. Now... for those of you who do not play Ret, or Pally, Here is logic. Beware, if you read further, as logic has made many a forum troll jump off his roof...

As Ret, We need to have this damage output. We have two CC abilities, and they can be very powerful. Hammer of Justice, on a 40 second CD if specced into it, and Repentance, 1 minute CD. We have the ability to stop you from speeding up, but we can't slow you down. We have no Mortal Strike effect. I'm sitting in a mix of 25man gear and pvp gear. 2/5 T7.25 and 3/5 Hateful.( Here is where trolls redirect attention) If im unlucky and get no crits at all, I'll only see 1300-1700 from my damaging abilities. Very very easy to heal through that.



Example of lack of Mortal strike / movement reduction

It was Dk/Hpally team vs my team. I was very lucky and got a crit almost every other ability, I was keeping the DK at around 30-70% usually at 50% ish. After about a minute of coordinating all my CC's down, I got the DK to 4%. Because I have no Mortal Strike effect. He was back at 100% because of holyshock,Runetap, and vamipiric Blood. (Not sure if that actually did more than increase his total health, but he literally went from 4% to 100% in 1 sec. My GCD was going so I couldn't even Hammer of wrath him. Thats my example of us not having a mortal strike debuff. The example of not having a slowing effect, my partner was killed very shortly after, because I have no way to get the DK off of him other than 2 CC's that the Hpally can cleanse.

My Divine Storm is about 1300-3000 damage. Crusader strike is about 1600-3300, judgement is about 1700-3500, Auto attack is around 1200-2000. Seal is around the same. At absolute max of all, with the numbers I put here, everything critting for max. (These numbers don't include Avenging Wrath) I do 17800 damage. Thats 3 GCD's.

I'm not sorry that the way my class survives not having healing debuff or movement impairing effect, is to push out a ton of damage to pressure you down. Why don't we hear bitching about Ele shammy burst to high? They can crit for 9k in 1 spell. (Not taking a shot at Ele Shammies)

How about we stop all the bitching about how X is Overpowered because of this that and that. And if you MUST continue to bitch, howsabout you think, "Well, do they have all that because of a lack of anything else" I really don't agree with other ret pallies who say we as a spec/class do too much damage. It's how we survive, it's how we make up for not having -50% healing done or -30% movement speed.

And if the ret pally is seriously to much burst for you to take down.. CC it.. It's really not too terribly hard. I can ge out of 2 stuns or 1 stun and 1 fear, and I get out of poly by HoS my druid or DSing my party. I can only do this every 2 minutes. I am pretty sure your fear and stuns are more often than once every 2 minutes.


** Edit Signature is way out of date**
Unleash the Trolls.

[Palatinus]

Unleash the Trolls.

lol so why post?

Yes ret is doing a lot of damage, but as you said, it needs it because of the lack of MS etc. However it becomes a problem when you link this into other examples or brackets.

However, everyone should know by now that 3.2 will show another re-vamp to ret. The burst damage, especially doing over 17k in 3GCD's will change, but don't be surprised when blizzard add in unique MS's or unrelenting assault moves to compensate.

[Nemecis]

PvP isn't based around 1v1.

Retribution paladins are doing a lot of burst and it doesn't require much skill to do so.

Retribution paladins can wear a lot of PvE gear in arena and can therefor do a lot of burst.

Did I mention burst?

As a warrior meeting retribution paladins is just a big sigh! If they have the slightest clue on how to play I can get whooped without touching them, in arena it's a different story.

It's an annoying spec which is based around killing something in a HoJ while having strong defensive tools aswell.

Whatever the point of this thread was: No.

[Zuthos]

Oh, I just posted unleash the trolls because every time a troll posts on my topics, I get all warm and tingly,

And yes, I know that we're getting re-vamped, I am just posting this so that 1000 people can troll, and 1000 other people can go "Y'know.... that makes sense..."

[Zuthos]

PvP isn't based around 1v1.

Retribution paladins are doing a lot of burst and it doesn't require much skill to do so.

Retribution paladins can wear a lot of PvE gear in arena and can therefor do a lot of burst.

Did I mention burst?

As a warrior meeting retribution paladins is just a big sigh! If they have the slightest clue on how to play I can get whooped without touching them, in arena it's a different story.

It's an annoying spec which is based around killing something in a HoJ while having strong defensive tools aswell.

Whatever the point of this thread was: No.

Yeah, Because you can't charge, hamstring me, trinket out of stun and walk away giving your partner time to heal you.. A warrior charges me, I'm stunned for 1 second, Then unload all their shit on me, and I can't really do shit to them for a little while. I usualy am forced to bubble, which means I save my wings because if I pop them and don't get crit and crit after crit to fast for your healer to keep up with (Which they usualy can, at least for a bit) you then slaughter me. Also, I never said anywhere that this game was based on 1v1. You did.

[brokenmirror]

They're not very threatening by themselves, but paired with an MS effect they become a bit overwhelming.

[Thaak]

The entire purpose of that stun, and the reason it was increased, was to allow warriors to land within range of a moving target.

"Then unload all their shit on me, and I can't really do shit to them for a little while."

What? Its a 1.5 second stun. GCD=1.5 second. How much can they really unload on you before you can react?

[Zuthos]

The entire purpose of that stun, and the reason it was increased, was to allow warriors to land within range of a moving target.

"Then unload all their shit on me, and I can't really do shit to them for a little while."

What? Its a 1.5 second stun. GCD=1.5 second. How much can they really unload on you before you can react?

I can react. By taking off 10k of their health. Oh look, now im at 5k health.. *bubble* That 1.5 second charge stun is amazingly good. I'm not saying its OP or it should go away at all. I usualy try to repentance a warrior just so he can't charge me and start his Cycle of bleeds and pain on me.

[brokenmirror]

You've never seen a ret pally take a warrior down to 30% hp in less than 6 seconds I guess. Oh.. Pallys don't have a stun either I guess.

[psicorp]

They're not very threatening by themselves, but paired with an MS effect they become a bit overwhelming.

i dont play a retadin and i dont intend to, but this argument seems a little flawed, classes synergizing well with each other is part of the game

[brokenmirror]

Exactly. So when a class has consistent high amounts of burst damage, and it's target also has an MS effect on it at the same time. What happens? According to blizzard, hybrids aren't supposed to do more than pure dps classes, which obviously isn't true.

What also happens when a class is able to pvp in pve gear too? While other classes (warrior for example) have to pvp in full pvp gear or they will blow up (Which usually happens anyways with 700 resil).

Pallys have great cc compared to other classes also. I don't know why you're crying about a stun, an incapitate, and a slow. Which are also all instant. Shamans get a POS slow, another POS slow, and a hex which usually gets dispelled, or resists even with spell pen.

There's a reason everyone rerolled ret pallys when 3.0 hit, and it's probably the same reason you went ret.

[psicorp]

Exactly. So when a class has consistent high amounts of burst damage, and it's target also has an MS effect on it at the same time. What happens?

class synergy. thus my point. its not overpowered when two classes can shore up each other, in this case, one class with a stun and burst damage along with another class which weakens healing

There's a reason everyone rerolled ret pallys when 3.0 hit, and it's probably the same reason you went ret.

once again i dont play a paladin. i just dont hold to the philosophy that everyone but me is overpowered. if it means anything, though i dont see why it would, my mains are a DK and a warlock

[brokenmirror]

You obviously don't play a shaman (as you stated), if you don't think everyone but my class is overpowered.

[Raiss]

Ret burst isn't high, due the lack of MS/interrupts. If i'm able to block his atacks and melee hit him with justice, we dmg me at all. It can get very dangerous if get together with healing reduction or/and intensive interrupts (rogues/dks mostly).

[psicorp]

You obviously don't play a shaman (as you stated), if you don't think everyone but my class is overpowered.

i would say there is quite enough empirical evidence to suggest shamans are underpowered. hell, maybe just broken at this point. thats kind of a problem with blizz. shamans were weak in the latter half of vanilla, they were lack luster in BC, and as the premier teams form in WotlK they are getting left out in the cold. hell if it wasnt for bloodlust i think shamans would be at a near zero representation in every brackets. but, having said that, i dont quite grasp the connection to ret pallies DPs out put

[brokenmirror]

Well atleast we agree about shamans

I haven't had much time to arena since s5 started since it's my final year of college, so I just did 2s, which may be why I see ret pallys and dks for that matter being really OP against shaman/warrior.

Ret pallys are probably fine in 3s and 5s, but I will not get a chance to experience that until the end of may.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

Exactly. So when a class has consistent high amounts of burst damage, and it's target also has an MS effect on it at the same time. What happens? According to blizzard, hybrids aren't supposed to do more than pure dps classes, which obviously isn't true.

What also happens when a class is able to pvp in pve gear too? While other classes (warrior for example) have to pvp in full pvp gear or they will blow up (Which usually happens anyways with 700 resil).

Pallys have great cc compared to other classes also. I don't know why you're crying about a stun, an incapitate, and a slow. Which are also all instant. Shamans get a POS slow, another POS slow, and a hex which usually gets dispelled, or resists even with spell pen.

There's a reason everyone rerolled ret pallys when 3.0 hit, and it's probably the same reason you went ret.

We dont have a slow. We have a "You can't go faster than usual" ability. You can chain-cast your "POS" abilities, we have to wait at least 40 seconds to use ours.

A Ret paladin with 0 resilience is one of the easiest targets in the game. One of the teams that I farmed to get up to 1500 is two Ret paladins in PvE gear, and they're laughably easy to beat. Unless paired with a good control class, like DKs, Paladins are some of the EASIEST TO KILL targets in the game, because their ONLY emergency defensive maneuver is only usable ONCE EVERY 5 MINUTES.

Shamans do better burst than Ret, because they have almost no defenses, and yet nobody complains? Ret has virtually no representation in the high brackets, so obviously they're not doing so well when it really matters. And if you try and quote the holy paladins who went deep ret last season for mana regens, I think we all know you're full of it.

[brokenmirror]

Resto shaman have a 2.5 cast attack that does 1.3k hits, and 1.8k crits max.

Lava burst.. less than 3k depending on their resil.

That's a lot of burst right there.

You speak of shamans like they're not easily cc'd or prevented from attacking.

If you're not dispelling flame shock or attempting to los lava burst against an ele shaman, you deserve to get killed.

[rezult]

PvP isn't based around 1v1.

Retribution paladins are doing a lot of burst and it doesn't require much skill to do so.

Retribution paladins can wear a lot of PvE gear in arena and can therefor do a lot of burst.

Did I mention burst?

As a warrior meeting retribution paladins is just a big sigh! If they have the slightest clue on how to play I can get whooped without touching them, in arena it's a different story.

It's an annoying spec which is based around killing something in a HoJ while having strong defensive tools aswell.

Whatever the point of this thread was: No.

This

[sainthubbins]

Resto shaman have a 2.5 cast attack that does 1.3k hits, and 1.8k crits max.

Right, because Holy paladins do such ridiculous burst...