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  1. #61

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by geraldford
    Having said that, I love typhoon over starfall for pve and pvp. for two reasons:
    I certainly wouldn't agree with that for PvE.

    1. If you have IS and MF on the boss and your 5 min ImpFF doesn't need a refresh, this is a great way to instant cast for some dmg on a boss
    The damage for typhoon on a single target is not worth the GCD cost. Starfall however easily is.

    2. Knocks anything out of stealth (eat it rogues) and functions as the only way a moonkin can stop a cast spell without making the target dmg immune and removing all dots (cyclone).
    All this might be true, but it's all useless for PvE.

    Also note that starfall scaling is HORRIBLE. It will effectively get worse and worse as you get gear and raid compared to everything else in the game.
    Starfall scaling was greatly increased with 3.1. I did some testing on the PTR before 3.1 and found that it was ~4% per star I think, which while it isn't the greatest in the world, it's still decent enough to ensure that Starfall is definitely worth the GCD cost even against single targets. The CD for Starfall has also been decreased to 90 seconds (60 with glyph), again increasing the worth of the talent point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    in soviet russia, mods troll you!

  2. #62

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    Typhoon is pretty useless for pve but starfall is good.

  3. #63

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Degrador
    1. If you have IS and MF on the boss and your 5 min ImpFF doesn't need a refresh, this is a great way to instant cast for some dmg on a boss

    The damage for typhoon on a single target is not worth the GCD cost. Starfall however easily is.
    I accidentally left out the end of the statement. This would have made a big difference. This is also why I only mention IS MF and impFF, which are all instant. It should have been:

    If you have IS and MF on the boss and your 5 min ImpFF doesn't need a refresh, this is a great way to instant cast for some dmg on a boss while moving.

    In an instance like Ulduar where you are moving a lot during most bosses, this is a great way to keep some dps while shifting positions.

    All this might be true, but it's all useless for PvE.
    It isn't useless, but its use is debatable. PvE includes all world content and 5 mans too. Spell interrupts are always useful, just not always used. If you think I'm wrong you should talk to your rogues and warriors and watch them kick and slam like crazy on a lot of trash and bosses. That is why I stated:

    While typhoon is indeed very handy, please keep in mind that it is highly situational.
    A spell like "Soothe Animal" is useless because no one ever uses it. Typhoon may not be an ideal choice, but I've found that it has its use while moving or for pvp/spell interrupts. These uses cannot be performed by moonkins with any other ability. Not Useless, just debatable for a spec.

    Anyways, I'm going to test out 1/3 intensity, typhoon and starfall in one spec (with the rest of my spec from my OP intact) to see if it holds up on mana intensive fights. Then it'd be the best of both worlds, typhoon while moving without losing starfall's little dps boost. Considering I rarely use my own innervate it should be fine.

  4. #64

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    I think you need to redefine "uselessness" here. You made a mistake comparing Starfall to Typhoon in PvE content. The use of typhoon is situational and never better then Starfall on single target. What most of us are trying to say is that Typhoon's interrupt mechanic does more harm then good. If you don't glyph for the knockback then you just tossed a trash mob out of melee range of your tank or made your tank unable to dodge/parry/block. Its utility also overlaps that of other classes, as you expressed. If one target is casting, and you have a warrior and a rogue in the group. How is Typhoon useful for interrupts? Your overlapping utilities.

  5. #65

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    Typhoon interrupts are useful outside Iin PvE content outside of raids. With current threat gen, I wouldn't consider this to be a big issue unless you use typhoon very early after a mob is engaged.

    Many mobs in raid instances are completely immune to all knockback and stun effects, so I personally do not worry about its use on boss encounters. The primary reason I like to have it in my spec is to provide single target dmg while moving. A good example of this is Hodir. You have to move, sometimes too often to even get a wrath off. The knockback doesn't work on Hodir, nor will any spell interrupt. Therefore, all typhoon will do is provide some dmg in a situation where there is no need to refresh your dots and while you are moving.

    To be fair, I didn't emphasize as much as intended and things have gotten a bit side tracked since. This was only made worse considering the apparent emphasis on raid content and dps in this thread.

    To refine my view of typhoon on single target raid encounters, please consider my view as such:

    Without mana problems, I prefer to trade a talent point from intensity for the extra instant cast spell and will not have to worry about the knockback.

  6. #66

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by geraldford
    Without mana problems, I prefer to trade a talent point from intensity for the extra instant cast spell and will not have to worry about the knockback.
    Your opinion is valid. I would take it too if only for situational encounters. The item to debate is it's use, even in moving, single-target fights. I would suggest going to EJ and looking up WrathCalcs.xls It is a spreadsheet providing all possible scenarios and your DPS outputs. Outside of that, you can discuss Typhoon ideals on movement. My opinion stands that it is not worth the talent, even on fights like Hodir, for single-target fights.

  7. #67

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by geraldford
    If you have IS and MF on the boss and your 5 min ImpFF doesn't need a refresh, this is a great way to instant cast for some dmg on a boss while moving.
    Ok, well yes, that does make a difference to your statement Still, comparing it to Starfall isn't a good idea as Starfall is always going to be a better spell / talent to pick up.

    PvE includes all world content and 5 mans too.
    Yes, that's true, and if we're including soloing and 5 mans then I agree that Typhoon is a very useful spell in certain situations. However generally when people talk about PvP vs PvE, they're referring to PvE as raiding, and for raiding I really don't think it's worth the talent point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    in soviet russia, mods troll you!

  8. #68

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by geraldford
    Without mana problems, I prefer to trade a talent point from intensity for the extra instant cast spell and will not have to worry about the knockback.
    If you've got no other DPS talents to pick up, then yes, I agree that it would be worth putting a point there for the rare occasions when it's useful assuming you've got enough mana regen. Personally though I'd probably pick up something like Gale Winds before I'd take Typhoon though, after which there really isn't any room for it given a pure DPS spec: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0xRbuqIscdIqhouZbxczb

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    in soviet russia, mods troll you!

  9. #69
    Wardon
    Guest

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide


  10. #70

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Degrador
    Personally though I'd probably pick up something like Gale Winds before I'd take Typhoon though, after which there really isn't any room for it given a pure DPS spec: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0xRbuqIscdIqhouZbxczb
    I agree that it's probably unwise to take Typhoon unless you've already taken Gale Winds.

    Though I really do like Owlkin Frenzy, I must admit it's about as situational as Typhoon.

  11. #71

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Skagasm
    Though I really do like Owlkin Frenzy, I must admit it's about as situational as Typhoon.
    Given nearly every fight has raid damage I'd hardly call Owlkin Frenzy situational...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    in soviet russia, mods troll you!

  12. #72

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    The problem is not to have raid damage, but to have it often enough that the low proc chance actually becomes usefull. This basically requires you to receive some damage or whatever can trigger OF every 10s or less which isn't the case in most boss fights, at least for non-hard modes.

  13. #73

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Dje
    The problem is not to have raid damage, but to have it often enough that the low proc chance actually becomes usefull. This basically requires you to receive some damage or whatever can trigger OF every 10s or less which isn't the case in most boss fights, at least for non-hard modes.
    Even if it only triggers once a minute, that's still an average increase of ~2% for a single talent point which is just about as good as anything else, and personally I'd wager the average is a lot more than once a minute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    in soviet russia, mods troll you!

  14. #74

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    I agree that a 2% damage increase for 1 talent point would make it worthwhile (largely so actually, it'd enter the core talents). What i don't agree on is that the current encounters make such an increase realistic.

    1 talent point spent means a 5% chance to proc OF on incoming damage. 1 proc per minute would require you to receive raid damage every 3s. There's no fight like that unless perhaps some hardmode phases i don't know about yet, but whatever those might be (if they exist) this talent is at best in the realm of the hardmode specialized builds, not for your average moonkin looking for a balance guide.

  15. #75

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Dje
    I agree that a 2% damage increase for 1 talent point would make it worthwhile (largely so actually, it'd enter the core talents). What i don't agree on is that the current encounters make such an increase realistic.
    You might be right, but what alternatives are better than OF? With a core Balance DPS spec (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0VG0uqIRcdIVhouZbxczb) there are still 4 spare talent points that you can either spend on mana regen or AoE, neither of which are generally very attractive for bosses. You could even pick up Typhoon and Gale Winds (or IMF for single target fights) and still have a point spare for Owlkin Frenzy.

    For me though, I see Owlkin Frenzy as a pretty reliable DPS increase for practically every fight and doesn't require any alterations to the standard rotation, nor costs any extra mana. Hence I see it as being more attractive than the alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    in soviet russia, mods troll you!

  16. #76

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Degrador
    With a core Balance DPS spec (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0VG0uqIRcdIVhouZbxczb) there are still 4 spare talent points that you can either spend on mana regen or AoE
    Not taking Starlight Wrath?

  17. #77

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    That's just a typo, not going to hold that against him as an argument

    I like my AoE honestly, and it's worth more to me than etching 1-2% more single target dps, on the principle that i'm not doing any big dps race fight at the moment and that our AoE is very competitive on fights that require it (XT002, Freya, Thorim arena, parts of Mimiron p3, ...).
    (+ i still have 2 points in Intensity as i have to respec resto a bit too often at the moment to benchmark my mana performance reliably)

  18. #78

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Degrador
    With a core Balance DPS spec (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0VG0uqIRcdIVhouZbxczb) there are still 4 spare talent points that you can either spend on mana regen or AoE, neither of which are generally very attractive for bosses.
    Woah. Why did you use Genesis over Starlight Wrath? That is a DPS loss. The numbers prove it time and time again. Are you using a Solar Eclipse rotation or something? Hell, Your losing shit tons of damage even using that!

    As far as OF. It's an on-and-off debate. Personally, I think it is situational. I don't spec into it simply because of it's RNG. Not to say that it is horrible because of that; but, I would only suggest it for those who are honestly not needing any mana regen and have followed the talent spec in the OP Guide (+Starfall).

  19. #79

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by SoSolid
    Not taking Starlight Wrath?
    Yeah, that was just a mistake from trying to build it too quickly. Updated: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0xG0uqIRcdIVhouZbxczb

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    in soviet russia, mods troll you!

  20. #80

    Re: Balance Druids – The Moonkin Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Degrador
    Yeah, that was just a mistake from being bad

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