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  1. #21

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin
    I would argue that unpressured a warlock could 1v2 relatively well, so the fact that your team mate is keeping you alive is moot.

    You could also say that peeling dps off a healer is a waste of time, when in fact its vital to 2000+ gameplay. I see warlocks as healers. They make the fights easier for you but need help to do so. I think blizzard sees it this way as well.

    One thing to note is that they still have changes on the way, as the Fear nerf has not been compensated for yet.

    1v2 relatively well or win 1v2? Much less 1v3 or 1v5. What's so special about warlocks that opting to be a man disadvantage makes them worth it? The most damage? The best cc? The best heals?

    I don't think peeling off a warlock is a waste. I just think that comps that run with classes that are self sufficient with their defenses are just better off than comps that run with a class that can't defend itself and thus are a liability to their team.

    That isn't specific to the warlock class either. All ranged dps can pretty much attest to this trend. The only ranged dps that exists in high end arenas is frost mages. Why? Because frost mages have their own defenses.

    Blizzard has not said they plan on compensating anything. Ghostcrawler specifically commented on the fear nerf saying "nerfs are intended to be nerfs". For all I know more changes on the way could be more PvP nerfs for warlocks. Maybe they'll take away the last of our dots in the name of "simplifying" PvE.

  2. #22
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    I think that with a pet, dots, and fear, not including anything talented, a Warlock could dish out a lot of pain to 2 people. The remainder would be up to the team mate's ability to keep you alive and provide finishing burst. Keeping you alive doesn't have to be exclusive of damage dealt.


    Nerf to fear was made with a comment stating "We can't balance warlocks if fear is too strong", thus the minimal damage cap.


    Edit: Thinking about it, if you had a Warlock and X on the same team, X could in fact take someone else. However, what this says to me is that X is lazy. X doesn't want to utilize someones strengths and protect their weaknesses. A player who doesn't defend their paladin from Mana Burn/Mass Dispel is a bad player. A player who is slow to react doesn't deserve you as a team mate.

    R.I.P. YARG

  3. #23

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin
    I think that with a pet, dots, and fear, not including anything talented, a Warlock could dish out a lot of pain to 2 people. The remainder would be up to the team mate's ability to keep you alive and provide finishing burst. Keeping you alive doesn't have to be exclusive of damage dealt.


    Nerf to fear was made with a comment stating "We can't balance warlocks if fear is too strong", thus the minimal damage cap.


    Edit: Thinking about it, if you had a Warlock and X on the same team, X could in fact take someone else. However, what this says to me is that X is lazy. X doesn't want to utilize someones strengths and protect their weaknesses. A player who doesn't defend their paladin from Mana Burn/Mass Dispel is a bad player. A player who is slow to react doesn't deserve you as a team mate.
    Pets, dots and fears just don't chalk up to 2 people being able to go on the offensive. Imo pets and dots are as much as weakness as a strength. Dots are easily negated by dispel spam and once your pet is dead you lose a lot of your core PvP abilities that the class is balanced around being able to use for the course of the match.

    I agree forgoing the fragile warlock for the class with more survivability is the "easy" thing to do. Ease and practicality often go hand in hand. Most of the strongest comps in the game also require the least skill.

  4. #24

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Warlocks:

    1)Have a pet,which means they can disturb healers.
    2)Have the ability to "blanket" their spammable spell CC with UA,rendering it pretty much undispellable.
    3)Have drain mana,which currently:
    a)is the strongest mana drained per mana spent ability if left to channel to full,after the nerfs to the other 2 abilities
    b)as long as the target is in los for the first cast,the ability cannot be outLOS'd
    4)are one of the few classes that can use their bread and butter damage spells without facing their target
    5)Soul Link and Demon Armor turn you more durable in pvp than you think.In the time it takes you to go to 40% hp a mage would be dead,if he had to stand there and take damage.

    There's a reasons why mages arent player anymore in healer/dps 2v2 combos.Their survivability is bad.and their mana doesnt allow them to be always ready to output burst,unlike you.You have your own strengths and weaknesses.

    And yes,if you dont coordinate your own gameplay,which must be good,your pet,and communicate with your partner,you'll die,easily.Early in vanilla,the Warlock official class description had the following citation:

    "Requires more involvement to play than other,simpler classes."

    This is quite true in PvP.Play very well,and you're a well rounded teammate that can fulfill multiple pvp roles.Play badly,and splat,the melee facerolls you on the floor.

  5. #25

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...ptulon&n=Miang

    My warlock.

    Yes man,against any competent 2v2 team with a rogue or warrior,you will,guess what,lose.It's called ROCK PAPER SCISSORS.2v2 was never balanced nor it is intended to be.Just as how we are quite strong against retadin teams and hunter teams.

  6. #26

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by idpersona
    Warlocks:
    This is quite true in PvP.Play very well,and you're a well rounded teammate that can fulfill multiple pvp roles.Play badly,and splat,the melee facerolls you on the floor.
    Even if you play very well you're rollend into the floor by retarded warriors or rogues pressing 2 keys. You have no idea of a lock arena performance if you say we're strong agains retardins (which 3hit my pet including vw four times during a game being complete newbs). Try to break 1600-1700 mmr as a warlock playing with a healer which is not op priest, you'll see. Rogue/war teams are like 50% of the 2s right now, so its realy pointles to step into the arena.

  7. #27

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    i would like to soulshatter got reworked - it is really poor spell to 5 min CD and a shard cost...as stated in other threads, its effectiveness against aggro reduction is quite bad, also it can be resisted - this is problem in aoe pulls if you pull 2+ mobs and one or more mobs will resist your shatter (yeah i know this should not happen in raid but sometimes can - misery and faerie fire are not active all the time on trash, etc)...if soulshatter would give a warlock also a buff which made him imune to next one (or maybe a more) hit/ability/spell it could solve this problem and what is even better, the soulshaater could be also used in PVP like defensive ability, also it could remove all snares to fit the shard cost and long CD (but this is not a must, just and idea)

    then i also have an idea to soul link change - IMO instead of pasively transfering a part or locks damage to pet, it could be active ability with CD (CD could be 3 min and affected by nemesis talent - demo pvp is not very luckluster now though) - it could transfer X hits/abilities/spells from lock to pet OR transfers them for a some time....i think it could be nice - first from PVE POV: it will serve as a next life saver in our very poor threat reduction disposal, second from PVP POV: blizz stated that they dont like the purpose of lock tanking in pvp...soul link, nether protection and demon skin makes this even more a reality (but i dont have any ideas of changing demon skin nor nether protection now, just thinking about soul link), so this is kinda what blizz wants to do and an ability which could help us not being stunlocked to death will improve our survibility....i know that in this case pet dies very quick but if pet could also get the same amount of resilience as has his master when soul link is active and if immediately health funnelend (with improved health funnel ofc) or attacker feared, it maybe can survive...anyway, felpuppy has no abilities against rogue or warr so death felpuppy is better than dead lock...

    what do you think about it? i hope i not trolled, if yes, sorry :-[

  8. #28

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Delmadord
    i would like to soulshatter got reworked - it is really poor spell to 5 min CD and a shard cost...as stated in other threads, its effectiveness against aggro reduction is quite bad, also it can be resisted - this is problem in aoe pulls if you pull 2+ mobs and one or more mobs will resist your shatter (yeah i know this should not happen in raid but sometimes can - misery and faerie fire are not active all the time on trash, etc)...if soulshatter would give a warlock also a buff which made him imune to next one (or maybe a more) hit/ability/spell it could solve this problem and what is even better, the soulshaater could be also used in PVP like defensive ability, also it could remove all snares to fit the shard cost and long CD (but this is not a must, just and idea)

    then i also have an idea to soul link change - IMO instead of pasively transfering a part or locks damage to pet, it could be active ability with CD (CD could be 3 min and affected by nemesis talent - demo pvp is not very luckluster now though) - it could transfer X hits/abilities/spells from lock to pet OR transfers them for a some time....i think it could be nice - first from PVE POV: it will serve as a next life saver in our very poor threat reduction disposal, second from PVP POV: blizz stated that they dont like the purpose of lock tanking in pvp...soul link, nether protection and demon skin makes this even more a reality (but i dont have any ideas of changing demon skin nor nether protection now, just thinking about soul link), so this is kinda what blizz wants to do and an ability which could help us not being stunlocked to death will improve our survibility....i know that in this case pet dies very quick but if pet could also get the same amount of resilience as has his master when soul link is active and if immediately health funnelend (with improved health funnel ofc) or attacker feared, it maybe can survive...anyway, felpuppy has no abilities against rogue or warr so death felpuppy is better than dead lock...

    what do you think about it? i hope i not trolled, if yes, sorry :-[
    eeeh? You wanted buff warlocks or nerf them?

  9. #29

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Now that they cant use exorcism,retadins cant "3shot"the pet.They can set up a Holy Wrath burst,which has a long cooldown and is quite taxing on the mana.If your healer and you is on the ball,its very doable to keep your pet alive reliably.

    Warriors and rogues are your hardcounters,since the dawn of WoW.In the 2v2 environment,its absolutely normal that they will kill you,with ease,if they are good.Gouge-kick-stun will make sure you aint gonna cast anything other than instants,and warriors are pretty much immune to fear,barring a 20ish sec window every minute.Tough luck mate,they get facerolled by the retridin you can fearjuggle all around.It's called rock-paper-scissors.

  10. #30

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Warlocks have had this problem for the last 4 years. (which is when i started playing mine)

    Blizzards idea of Warlock is for you to dot and run, you arent meant to get caught and be tanking things.

    The problem with this idea however, is that the locks most anti class is rogue, and well, meh, you cant see them to dot and run, and your insta stunned.

    Warlock dont need physical protection against mellee imo, they need something to make them immune to stuns.

    Anyway, you can always go with my solution, i rerolled deathknight at start of WoTLK and have been ganked by rogues less than 5 times while questing in all that time. Rogues are like butter to me, and i chomp through them like they are nothing.

    It makes me feel good, muhahahahaha.

  11. #31

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Mermeoth
    eeeh? You wanted buff warlocks or nerf them?
    first one id ofc buff omg

    the second one is reworked ability which should help the lock survive mainly stunlock so it is intended to be a buff, feel free to discuss about it

  12. #32

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Delmadord
    first one id ofc buff omg

    the second one is reworked ability which should help the lock survive mainly stunlock so it is intended to be a buff, feel free to discuss about it
    I dont think if it would be buff if you alive stunlock but your minion will die..
    +it would be nice nerf against all other class..

  13. #33

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Mermeoth
    I dont think if it would be buff if you alive stunlock but your minion will die..
    +it would be nice nerf against all other class..
    explain more you opinion about this not being a buff :

    also give examples how "it would be a nice nerf to other classes"

    ??? ???

  14. #34
    Pandaren Monk Archimand's Avatar
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    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    im not sure if anyone mentiond it but hunters got aspect of the dragonhawk that add range ap and dodge in same time to prevent aspect dancing why not add to warlock same thing fel armor/demon armor combined into one armor with abit reduced effects or none at all so we can have burst effect and survivel in same time

    / sry if i have bad english
    "The speed of light is faster than the speed of sound.
    That's why so many people look smart until they start talking."
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  15. #35

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimand
    im not sure if anyone mentiond it but hunters got aspect of the dragonhawk that add range ap and dodge in same time to prevent aspect dancing why not add to warlock same thing fel armor/demon armor combined into one armor with abit reduced effects or none at all so we can have burst effect and survivel in same time

    / sry if i have bad english
    I suspect that is not your english at fault but your reasoning. Burst and survivability at the same time is a big no no in terms of general design. See Retradins for a example...

  16. #36
    Pandaren Monk Archimand's Avatar
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    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    well i said u can give it reduced effect that doesnt make it overpowerd cus atm is either puting fel armor for burst or demon armor to survive each of them make the 2nd thing not much of usefull and with our limited escape option it will make us alot less squishy
    "The speed of light is faster than the speed of sound.
    That's why so many people look smart until they start talking."
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  17. #37

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Delmadord
    explain more you opinion about this not being a buff :

    also give examples how "it would be a nice nerf to other classes"

    ??? ???
    Simple it is like old void's sacrifice...but it works for all demons..
    and you will lost 25% reduction of dmg taken

  18. #38

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Mermeoth
    Simple it is like old void's sacrifice...but it works for all demons..
    and you will lost 25% reduction of dmg taken
    it is completely different mechanic but you are IMO too pesimistic :P

  19. #39

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Delmadord
    it is completely different mechanic but you are IMO too pesimistic :P
    Its looks diffent but it is practicaly same.. If you will be under attack than your minion will die. Only different is how much absorb you will avoid(depends on your minion hp)

  20. #40

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Mermeoth
    Its looks diffent but it is practicaly same.. If you will be under attack than your minion will die. Only different is how much absorb you will avoid(depends on your minion hp)
    no its completely different...it will not transfer only dmg but also stuns or other things...i dont get how you can think that is like the same than old void sac - that only gave you shield which could be dispelled or spellstealed in the worst case...

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