Thread: crit as holy?

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  1. #21
    Super Moderator Venara's Avatar
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    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Izenhart
    2800 spellpower  28% crit and 12% haste raidbuffed before entering Ulduar?

    No...just...no.

    Prioritize Crit untill you get around 25% selfbuffed holy crit, then wisely stack up more haste than crit.
    Fully raidbuffed Izenhart. This includes all buffs, totems, flasks/elixirs, food buffs, etc.

    These numbers are totally valid. I had those with all raidbuffs before i entered Ulduar. It's really not that much of a problem with BiS Naxx/Maly/Sarth/etc gear. Of course someone who just dinged 80 will never even come close to this.

    EJ is correct in this case ;> Although personnaly, i went for slightly less haste and a little more crit.
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  2. #22
    Scarab Lord Izenhart's Avatar
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    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tumdumdumdum
    As holy I run raid buffed 3000 SP, 15% haste, 25% crit, I'd wish I had more haste for holy, I feel I don't really need the crit (I got it since Disc is my mainspec, and not regemming when I switch specs :P).
    Mind dropping an Armory link? Just curious, 2350 unbuffed SP and 450 haste must be fun to see


    Quote Originally Posted by Tumdumdumdum
    First priority is 10% haste, then maybe crit to 25%. However holy I suggest stacking crit and haste equaly when your GCD is 1 sec.

    A holyt it's what ppl said, heal the way you prefer, it will probably work out both ways, important is the 10% haste.
    Mhm, you can prefer the way you want, but as holy you should understand Haste simply makes you cast faster, crit simply makes you heal more...and WAIT, makes you proc HC and SoL.

    Realize yourself what you should go to prioritize first. When prioritize =/= than STACK it, simply 30% raidbuffed crit and 300 haste is a nice start to stop prioritizing crit and turning to haste.

  3. #23

    Re: crit as holy?

    2002 sp and about 25% crit unbuffed...

    its such a nice thing to have high crit (from perosnal experience no facts here)

    you get free FH's from PoM crits, CoH crits and PoH crits... and i think empowerd renew crits give it too....
    It's just a game.

  4. #24

    Re: crit as holy?

    I sit at 20.75% crit, 2475 Sp, 306 haste Self-buffed (no Flasks/Food). I think a balance is a good thing. I've always gone for spirit strong items and Just taken what comes with it for the most part. There are some exceptions depending on the other stats. It's worked well for me.
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  5. #25

    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalkulon
    The information you'll find on elitist jerks is dated.
    Nah, it's updated with 3.1 (07/05/09 even). The Ensidia healing guide of poptisse said nothing about crit, and I can't find your stats comparing "condensed version" anywhere. However, seeing you put MP5 over spirit / crit makes me doubt that it's a good one.
    Personally, for holy spec gear I prefer crit a bit over haste, until I get ~25% crit raid buffed, then I start prioritizing haste over crit, so I must disagree with your "crit is a junk stat for holy priest" idea =p

    Quote Originally Posted by Izenhart
    2800 spellpower 28% crit and 12% haste raidbuffed before entering Ulduar?

    No...just...no.
    If you meant these stats are near impossible to get before entering ulduar, it's very possible to attain these raid buffed stats before entering Ulduar, although of course you can do it with weaker gear (and makes other healers work harder!).

    I can't log on WoW to change gear and check my stats for a few days as I'm away from my home, however this is the number I remembered from my off-spec gear (0 ulduar item, even 10men, and I doubt they are even BiS for holy) - 2250 sp, 16.5% crit and 11% haste, 1200 spirit, 1050 int unbuffed.

    Fully raid buffed I get:
    - +5% haste from Totem of Wrath, bring my spell haste to 16%
    - From stats buff / moonkin aura I got ~11-12% crit, makes it ~27-28% crit;
    - Add a flask of frost wyrm (125 + alche bonus), totem of wrath (280), fish feast (46) and Inner Fire (150) and I get 2800 sp, maybe even more?

  6. #26

    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Izenhart
    Mhm, you can prefer the way you want, but as holy you should understand Haste simply makes you cast faster, crit simply makes you heal more...and WAIT, makes you proc HC and SoL.
    The only part of this statement that is true is that Crit procs HC and SoL... the rest is garbage.

    First you infer that only crit increases your HPS... haste is probably the best stat for HPS and is far more reliable than crit. Crit is subject to RnG and usually results in overhealing... if you're waiting for raid members to take enough damage for one of your crit heals to heal them back to full you are a very bad healer. You heal assuming you don't crit and you continually keep peopled topped up, crit is an incredibly unreliable source of HPS. Haste on the other hand is a guaranteed increase in casting speed and will allow you to cast more healing spells in the same amount of time.

    One thing about haste (since the last major content patch) is that it's less effective for Holy Priests than it previously was. Our major spells tend to be instants or 1.5sec casts and we can stack serendipity to get massive haste buffs on our slower spells, those being Gheal & PoH. I can completely understand that argument as to why you may now devalue haste, but the argument you presented above is completely invalid.

  7. #27

    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka

    First you infer that only crit increases your HPS... haste is probably the best stat for HPS and is far more reliable than crit. Crit is subject to RnG and usually results in overhealing... if you're waiting for raid members to take enough damage for one of your crit heals to heal them back to full you are a very bad healer. You heal assuming you don't crit and you continually keep peopled topped up, crit is an incredibly unreliable source of HPS.
    no you're absolutely right. there are no boss fights where the raid takes large amounts of aoe damage and potentially drop low enough for a crit heal to be effective. nope, never, especially not in ulduar, or in ulduar hard modes, right?

    give me a break
    it has nothing to do with "waiting for raid members to take enough damage" sometimes a lot of damage is taken. period.

  8. #28

    Re: crit as holy?

    Love for you to post some data that shows the effectivness of your crit heals... oh wait that will never happen because crit heals are rarely effective.

    Paladins who are based a lot on crit overheal for about 60%... that is just some evidence to show how ineffective crit heals are.

    Fact is crit increases a holy priests mana pool, it does offer some HPS benefit but its effect is highly unpredictable and conditional... so much so that the benefit is barely noticed. Haste on the other hand is a guaranteed increase to HPS that is far better controlled and utilised. If you fail to see that I really have nothing to discuss with you.

  9. #29

    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    Love for you to post some data that shows the effectivness of your crit heals... oh wait that will never happen because crit heals are rarely effective.

    Paladins who are based a lot on crit overheal for about 60%... that is just some evidence to show how ineffective crit heals are.

    Fact is crit increases a holy priests mana pool, it does offer some HPS benefit but its effect is highly unpredictable and conditional... so much so that the benefit is barely noticed. Haste on the other hand is a guaranteed increase to HPS that is far better controlled and utilised. If you fail to see that I really have nothing to discuss with you.

    considering i have too much crit and i'm trying to get more haste to balance my stats, and i always have the least % of overheals in my raid, and always top or 2nd on healing... i'd say thats proof, would you like to see WWS reports?

    the meters don't lie


    Edit: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1xD4IqRVPGiguTGb/

  10. #30

    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    Love for you to post some data that shows the effectivness of your crit heals... oh wait that will never happen because crit heals are rarely effective.

    Paladins who are based a lot on crit overheal for about 60%... that is just some evidence to show how ineffective crit heals are.

    Fact is crit increases a holy priests mana pool, it does offer some HPS benefit but its effect is highly unpredictable and conditional... so much so that the benefit is barely noticed. Haste on the other hand is a guaranteed increase to HPS that is far better controlled and utilised. If you fail to see that I really have nothing to discuss with you.
    Are you even holy because this made me laugh inside. Normally I just read and laugh at how many people don’t truly understand this game, however, after reading your post I couldn’t but help myself. “The effectiveness” of your crit heals LOL. Have you even healed a single hard mode? As a holy priest in almost any/all Ulduar fights normal or hard priests are usually raid healing. All of our AOE heals benefit greatly from crit and give more SoL procs. As a holy priest you should be keeping renews on your tanks as you raid heal. Spam PoM on every CD at a tank and save the rest of your mana for raid healing. Most of your talents and spells benefit greatly from crit. Surge of light procs from all of your healing and damaging spells. There is no reason as to why you shouldn’t stack crit over haste. You should have roughly 10-12% haste and stack crit/sp after that.

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  11. #31

    Re: crit as holy?

    The way to approach this is consider the numbers

    with a glyphed CoH you'll hit 6 targets, at 16% crit its a near guarantee that you should see a crit
    with PoH you could at most hit 10 targets, but once again 6 is most likely (pets) the 10% bonus from tier 8 means that at baseline stats you are almost always going to crit with PoH

    PoM bounces 5 times, during that, 5 chances to crit, 6 if tier 7 still, if 5 20%, if 6 once again 16%

    as far as the math on your crit goes, consider it takes 45.3 crit strike rating to gain one percent of crit

    If you have a 1-6 chance of getting a crit i.e 16% in order to get to 1-5 you need 20% a gain of nearly 181 crit strike rating, to 1-4 you'll need 227 crit strike rating in addition to that.

    As far as haste goes the maximum before hitting the GCD cap of 1 sec is 33.3% or ~980 Haste, anymore than this and I think the devs have gone back to thinking about fights like twins.

    Your spellpower is one of those stats that a lot of folks will tell you to aim for 2k, that's a fair number but the general consensus has always been, more spellpower is not going to hurt you unless you have regen problems, folks that claim a higher number than 2k are thinking about a raid buffed number

    Int, Spi, and Stam, just take what you get, Int contributes to crit and your regen nowadays, for crit 167 int = 1% crit at 80

    As for Ratios of spirit to int, due to the changes to holy conc, the ratio skewed from its post-tbc 2:1 factor to a (2.7-3.3):2 factor. If your spirit is much higher your gains from holy concentration will be offset by the diminished power when spirit exceeds the original 2:1 factor still in the game you will see less significant gains in terms of mana regen during those procs.
    The real bitch of this is whether you talent imp renew or not, if so you can almost always force the proc, if not at the very least an unhasted flash heal can be cast 5 times before holy conc fades, so 20% crit would be required to realistically expect to keep this talent up. If you toss your pom out, as little as 10% would be reasonable enough considering a raid damage fight.

    Spirit in and of itself is still a strange stat just because of human priests' human spirit racial, in that the numbers are actually slightly different, not by huge amounts but enough to be noticeable.

    Most all of these points are moot when compared to the simple fact that disc and holy are very different playstyles.


    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...n=Faded+Dreams

  12. #32

    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by meadatron
    The way to approach this is consider the numbers

    with a glyphed CoH you'll hit 6 targets, at 16% crit its a near guarantee that you should see a crit
    with PoH you could at most hit 10 targets, but once again 6 is most likely (pets) the 10% bonus from tier 8 means that at baseline stats you are almost always going to crit with PoH

    PoM bounces 5 times, during that, 5 chances to crit, 6 if tier 7 still, if 5 20%, if 6 once again 16%

    as far as the math on your crit goes, consider it takes 45.3 crit strike rating to gain one percent of crit

    If you have a 1-6 chance of getting a crit i.e 16% in order to get to 1-5 you need 20% a gain of nearly 181 crit strike rating, to 1-4 you'll need 227 crit strike rating in addition to that.

    As far as haste goes the maximum before hitting the GCD cap of 1 sec is 33.3% or ~980 Haste, anymore than this and I think the devs have gone back to thinking about fights like twins.

    Your spellpower is one of those stats that a lot of folks will tell you to aim for 2k, that's a fair number but the general consensus has always been, more spellpower is not going to hurt you unless you have regen problems, folks that claim a higher number than 2k are thinking about a raid buffed number

    Int, Spi, and Stam, just take what you get, Int contributes to crit and your regen nowadays, for crit 167 int = 1% crit at 80

    As for Ratios of spirit to int, due to the changes to holy conc, the ratio skewed from its post-tbc 2:1 factor to a (2.7-3.3):2 factor. If your spirit is much higher your gains from holy concentration will be offset by the diminished power when spirit exceeds the original 2:1 factor still in the game you will see less significant gains in terms of mana regen during those procs.
    The real bitch of this is whether you talent imp renew or not, if so you can almost always force the proc, if not at the very least an unhasted flash heal can be cast 5 times before holy conc fades, so 20% crit would be required to realistically expect to keep this talent up. If you toss your pom out, as little as 10% would be reasonable enough considering a raid damage fight.

    Spirit in and of itself is still a strange stat just because of human priests' human spirit racial, in that the numbers are actually slightly different, not by huge amounts but enough to be noticeable.

    Most all of these points are moot when compared to the simple fact that disc and holy are very different playstyles.


    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...n=Faded+Dreams
    I agree with much of what you have said other then haivng mana issues atm for priests mana shouldnt be a problem at all. The only fight i;ve ever had to ask for a innervate on was hard mode Steelbreaker. If people are having mana issues they arnt corretly playing their class or have a large number of overhealing.

    PS lucky trinket -_-

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  13. #33
    Scarab Lord Izenhart's Avatar
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    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    The only part of this statement that is true is that Crit procs HC and SoL... the rest is garbage.

    First you infer that only crit increases your HPS... haste is probably the best stat for HPS and is far more reliable than crit. Crit is subject to RnG and usually results in overhealing... if you're waiting for raid members to take enough damage for one of your crit heals to heal them back to full you are a very bad healer. I can completely understand that argument as to why you may now devalue haste, but the argument you presented above is completely invalid.
    Bah..probably you just didn't understand.


    You said my statement "crit just makes you heal more" is wrong, but yet you simply said crit is an unreliable source of HPS. Did I say IT IS? No.

    Still not denying my ACTUAL statement, the fact that more crit % makes you heal more, REGARDLESS is if overhealing or effective healing, so my statement is right, I did not mention anything regarding overhealing or not.

    I said "haste makes just you heal faster", with a consequent increase of HPS, and don't see how can this be denied.

    About the crit proccing just cause of RNG, so being quite useless because in unreliable, I'm quite shocked.

    Do you think an Holy Priest cares about overhealing with Flash Heals?
    The crit is VALUABLE for the HUGE amount of CoH and PoH you'll be casting over the raid, they heal single targets for about 2.5normal/4kcrit and 4k normal/7k crit, do you really think during HEAVY AoE periods such health won't be lost, and crit won't be worth gold for the healing? Mimiron, Freya, Kologarn, Ignis?

  14. #34

    Re: crit as holy?

    /sigh

    Linking a log report and not using any of the information to support any theories or claims is pretty pointless.

    Let me use some data to support my claim... and before I do that let me reiterate my claim. While crit provides some HPS benefit that benefit is quite poor when compared to the HPS benefit of haste. If one wanted to increase their HPS they should focus on haste rather than crit. That doesn't make crit useless, one of the side benefits of crit is to extend a holy priests mana pool. It also provides burst HPS but that type of healing is highly conditional and almost impossible to predict due to its nature of being random. Therefore, HPS benefits from crit should be largely ignored and it should be accepted that haste & SP are the best ways to increase HPS.

    First I will show you how gaining 1% crit increases HPS... for this example i'm not even going to attempt to model overhealing. I would hope that anyone reading this (including you) can admit that overhealing is far more likely to suffer from overhealing when talking about effeciency. That would mean that these numbers are the absolute best case scenario and are fare more likely to be far less.

    Lets assume your flash heal hits for 1000 and that you have a 20% crit rate and 0% haste making the cast time 1.5 seconds. When heals crit they heal for 1.5 times the normal amount. That means that the HPS effect of this spell over time is ((1000*1.5)*0.2+0.8*1000)/1.5 = 733.33 HPS. If we increase that critical strike chance to 21% the HPS comes out at 736.67 or you get an increase of 0.45% in HPS. Note that this relationship is not linear as your crit increases, lets assume you had a stupid crit rate of 60% and then it got increased to 61%. The HPS would begin at 866.67 and increase to 870.00 which is an increase of 0.38%.

    So we can conclude that crit has a sliding scale relationship with HPS... basically the more you get the less effect it has on HPS.

    Lets take a look at haste, the formula which determines the new casting time for a spell is:

    New Casting Time = (Base Casting Time)/(1 + (% Spell Haste / 100)), so if we add 1% haste our Flash Heal will now cast in 1.4851 seconds. If we do the above calculation comparing 0% haste with 1% haste we find out the effect on HPS is 1.00%... wow this is a lot more effective than crit, its double the value and far less susceptible to overhealing. Interestingly haste has the same declining relationship with HPS, a gain from 25% haste to 26% only increases HPS by 0.8%, but that is still a far better return than crit.

    Lastly crit rating costs a lot more iLvl points than Haste. 32.79 haste rating = 1% haste while 45.91 crit rating = 1% crit. So if you were gearing for HPS, not only will haste scale HPS better you can get more haste on your gear than you could get crit.

    Now perhaps you will see my point that trying to claim that crit increases your HPS is not necessarily a correct claim. Sure you are technically correct and I have no doubt it helps with burst healing but in terms of theorycraft you can't quantify its real effect over time. For that reason you shouldn't concern yourself with its HPS effect, instead crit should be treated as a stat to extend your mana pool. It does this via HC uptime and SoL procs... once you get a mana pool that can last encounters you should be looking to SP & Haste as your major stats to increase HPS.

    If you want to argue more i'll be happy to pick apart your log to show you how your overhealing (while minimal) is making your crit heals largely ineffective.

  15. #35
    Scarab Lord Izenhart's Avatar
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    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    If we increase that critical strike chance to 21% the HPS comes out at 736.67 or you get an increase of 0.45% in HPS


    Lets take a look at haste, If we do the above calculation comparing 0% haste with 1% haste we find out the effect on HPS is 1.00%... wow this is a lot more effective than crit, its double the value and far less susceptible to overhealing.
    So, by your calculations, you get around 0.5%HPS for every 1% haste we stack, compared to critical strike rating.
    Haste give us a slightly 0.5% advantage, and I'm not even counting HC ans SoL.

    You can stack haste how much you want, and gain even 6,7 or 8% more HPS compared to crit, but that's completely useless untill someone with 10% crit more than you will land 5000 SoL heals 2 times faster than you.

    Or you can stack haste how much you want, and gain 6,7, or 8% more HPS compared to crit, but at least crit will have, 10, 15, or even 20 more seconds to heal thanks to the Holy Concentration proc'd more, and allowed you to spend more mana.

    And the counter-party of proc'ing more those talents would be "but if I have more haste I'll cast more heals, and I'll have more chances to proc those".
    That'd be wrong, for those 2 talents casting them more can't be compared to critting them more, talents like PoM, instant renew, CoH, are not affected by haste but only by Critical, the only 2 abilities used a lot, are FH and PoH, and haste would basically be on the same usefulness on crit only with FH, considering the already insane speed of PoH with Serendipityx3

  16. #36

    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by frozenshade
    i see what your saying, does anyone have a decent balance between crit sp and haste? i was thinking around 2200 SP / 19-22% crit and 300 haste is decent.

    what does anyone else think?
    Seems legit to me, i run with 21% holy crit, 2400SP, and 240 haste.
    I tried 'stacking' haste (600+ i think at one point) and tbh i prefered the oshit instant flash heals than 1.2second cast

  17. #37

    Re: crit as holy?

    There is a big difference between the theorycrafting as a dps and a healer. All you have proven to me is the HPS on tank healing, he is coming from a holy priest PoV which intern should never ever tank heal. Any main tank healing a priest should do in any fight is keep renews on every tank at all times and spam POM.

    The math you did was more for paladin healers. They mainly heal a tank not the raid. If you look at any top end guild’s WMO, you would realize that most of the priest’s healing comes from four different spells. The top two are mainly CoH and PoH. Which in the end benefit from crit more than haste.

    For instance here is one of my WMO’s on hardmode steelbreaker. At the time of the kill I was first priest in the US; 2nd in the world on EHPS, which what really matters if you are going to compare what is more effective.

    http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...317#healingout

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  18. #38

    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Izenhart
    So, by your calculations, you get around 0.5%HPS for every 1% haste we stack, compared to critical strike rating.
    Again you completely miss the point... this is only true if you do 0% overhealing... the fact is a vast majority of crit heals result in overhealing... faster normal heals do not (assuming you heal correctly).

    Again lets assume you heal for 1000, and you overheal for 20% of its effectiveness... when you crit it heals for 1500, 20% of 1500 = 300... however the only HPS gain from crit is the crit portion that being the 500 extra healing... but hang on you just overhealed for 300... that means only 200 of the crit portion of the heal was effective or 40%

    So if you overheal 20% of the time it's fair to say that only 40% of your HPS gain is effective... so if we compare numbers 0.5% really becomes 0.2% for every 1% gained in crit at the low end... keep in mind this is really over simplifying the real effect because for every percentage gain in crit you recieve less HPS effect which I illustrated earlier.

    The thing with haste is that overhealing doesn't actually decline the HPS effect. If you are overhealing for 20% at 0 haste you are effectively healing for 80%... haste scales that 80% effective healing... haste doesn't increase the amount of overhealing it simply increases your cast speed... it doesn't effect overhealing whatsoever.

    Lastly, the hardest thing to model is what % of normal heals contribute to overhealing and what % of crits contribute... if you have a 20% overhealing rate you will find that 15% is probably made up of crits and 5% from normal landed heals. It's too hard to supply math to back this claim up but if you logically think about it, its quite obvious that RNG big heals are far more likely to result in overhealing than a standard heal. Therefore those are going to make up a higher proportion of your overhealing data.

    I'd also like to point out that in the WoL both holy priests were in fact overhealing on their Flash Heals for about 40% to 50%, not 20% above... so that effect becomes even more and more pronounced.

    Again don't confuse this discussion with crit being useless... crit is a good stat but its value is in HPM or mana extension. It is not a good HPS stat, its a very ineffective HPS stat even though it has some effect on HPS. If you want to gear for HPS you should focus on SP & Haste.

    And very lastly, if you read my orginal post properly you will see that I completely acknowledge that Serendipity perhaps devalues haste somewhat. Particularly now that Gheal is not cast that often and PoH is used somewhat situationally. Most of the holy priests heals cost a GCD and haste has less of a gross effect on GCD than a 3sec cast for example. This is a totally valid argument and one I acknowledge... in which case you should be stacking SP if you want to increase HPS.

  19. #39

    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by daonar
    haste = reliable HPS increase at the cost of mana being burned faster
    crit = unreliable HPS increase at no cost

    Since you're not a paladin, I don't see why you would want crit at all. Which means, do not gear for it specifically (gems), but instead just accept what you can get on drops.
    Hit yourself over the head with a bat.

    You probably ask for advice on spec and gear every single step that you play your character because you dont even read the talent points, gtfo.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Barthilas&n=Strykie

  20. #40

    Re: crit as holy?

    Why do healers always throw out HPS, we ain't DPS


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