Thread: crit as holy?

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  1. #41

    Re: crit as holy?

    There are a lot of different aspects to healing... first your mana pool describes how long you can heal for, and your mana pool is determined by your raw mana pool + regen + HPM of the spells you cast.

    However just being the most effecient healer doesnt help much if you don't have the raw power to keep up with incomming damage, and this is measured by HPS. At the end of the day a target will take damage that can be described in DPS and the healer will need to be able to provide the same or better HPS to keep that target alive.

    Obioviously healers need to balance their mana pool with their HPS ability to keep people alive. What i'm trying to illustrated is that crit has very little effect on HPS but has a great effect on mana pool. Its obvious that some people in this thread are either too stubborn or too stupid to acknowledge that fact. Instead they just make some sort of logical connection that because a crit heal does 50% more healing it must increase your HPS... it can but its so small to basically be insignficant.

  2. #42
    Scarab Lord Izenhart's Avatar
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    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    Again don't confuse this discussion with crit being useless... crit is a good stat but its value is in HPM or mana extension. It is not a good HPS stat, its a very ineffective HPS stat even though it has some effect on HPS. If you want to gear for HPS you should focus on SP & Haste.
    Ok, you'll keep prioritizing haste and I'll keep prioritizing critical, it's just different playstiles.

    But WAIT, you did not kill Yogg-Saron, your argument is invalid. >

  3. #43

    Re: crit as holy?

    Again you completely miss the point....

    If you are prioritising crit you are doing so for reasons related to mana extension and that is completely viable strategy. Just dont stand there and tell me the you are prioritising crit in order to increase your HPS, it is quite possibly the worst HPS stat for a Holy Priest as proved in my previous posts.

    That statement is not to be confused with, haste > crit... you can't even compare the 2 in a black & white fashion because they do completely different things.

    Lastly, whether i've killed Yogg or not is irrelevant... I don't need to kill Yogg to have a solid understanding of my class. You could have also pointed out my main spec is shadow but again I don't have to main spec Holy to understand my class mechanics. I have actually provided numbers to support my claims, you have simply made a series of subjective statements you claim to be true. If you want to claim crit is a good HPS stat, then please enlighten me with some evidence.

  4. #44

    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drye
    Any main tank healing a priest should do in any fight is keep renews on every tank at all times and spam POM.
    Any priest? So Discipline doesn't even have to use Penance or Flash Heal anymore? Damn, if it's even that easy, I might as well have my cat play for me. And I should "spam" a spell with a 7 (or 10) second Cooldown? Got it.

    Retards.

    For instance here is one of my WMO’s on hardmode steelbreaker. At the time of the kill I was first priest in the US; 2nd in the world on EHPS, which what really matters if you are going to compare what is more effective.
    Allow me to paraphrase: For instance, you should do exactly as I say because I say that I was World Second, US First on a boss and here's a link that "proves" it.
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  5. #45
    Scarab Lord Izenhart's Avatar
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    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    Again you completely miss the point....
    You like to say people misunderstands you regardless of what they said, don't you?

    I'll try to let you understand this bright and clear: NOONE EVER MENTIONED HPS COMPARISONS BETWEEN CRIT AND HASTE EXCEPT YOU.
    This is a 4 pages long thread talking about EFFICIENCY of those stats, not HPS. Did you even care to read how MANY times did you write HPS in your post? That's not the point of the argument.

    Look at all my 4 posts.
    I said "Crit makes you heal more". Did I say crits increment HPS? NO

    I said that you'll have more chances to land an increased bonus healing spell. Did I said "Increased bonus healing spells increases HPS"? NO. PERIOD.

    I said "haste can give you 6,7, or 8% HPS more than crit", so all of your "I bring maths you bring bullshit" is invalid, I never mentioned Crit gave more HPS than Haste, but you started with this as an assumption.
    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    and tell me the you are prioritising crit in order to increase your HPS
    If you want to claim crit is a good HPS stat, then please enlighten me with some evidence.
    So better reading what other people say first, because I brought a lot more proofs of the better efficiency of crit compared to haste, because you see, Efficiency =/= HPS, HPS is an increase of healing per second, Efficiency is SoL proc'ing making your next heal instant, is HC proc'ing making you regen mana, is Renew critting thanks to an hight value of crit, making SoL proc. They are Different.

    I did say Crit is better for a lot of other reasons, like having more % to crit during heavy AoE bosses is optimal, due to huge spam of PoH, PoM and CoH around, critting for 8k people getting hit hard and fast by AoE is just a pro, rather than being able to cast them 0.20 seconds faster, but you just did not answer.

    Should I also say crit is way better because it affects ALL the spells, when PoH very little due to Serendipity, PoM, CoH, Renew did NOT benefit from Haste? Yet again, no answers.

    Should I also add the benefits from HC and SoL crit gives and haste gives not, that you just passed them by and started replying back at the "you can't say crit gives more HPS" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    Lastly, whether i've killed Yogg or not is irrelevant... I don't need to kill Yogg to have a solid understanding of my class
    Jesus Christ, sarcasm! it is fucking SARCASM.

    Well anyways, for me the conversation was over at the last post, because evidently it's quite hard to argue with people so attached to their (Warcraft)values.

    As I said, you'll be keeping your (offspec)Idea and I'll be keeping mine.

  6. #46

    Re: crit as holy?

    This is why I never post and just laugh at how terrible people are at this game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Any priest? So Discipline doesn't even have to use Penance or Flash Heal anymore? Damn, if it's even that easy, I might as well have my cat play for me. And I should "spam" a spell with a 7 (or 10) second Cooldown? Got it.

    Retards.
    Allow me to paraphrase: For instance, you should do exactly as I say because I say that I was World Second, US First on a boss and here's a link that "proves" it.

    First of all, the topic sentence of this thread was “crit as holy”. He wanted information on a Holy spec which in turn, I was reply as a holy priest. No holy priest should ever heal a tank other then what I said.
    Second Worshaka asked for a Link of a wmo/wws to pick apart and say wether or not crit > haste. Which was exactly what I did.
    It would be a lot easier if you actually read the other post’s before complaining about what someone wrote.
    As…
    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    whether i've killed Yogg or not is irrelevant
    It is 100% relevant, this just shows how little fights/hard modes you have done.

    1. You are a shadow priest and most likely have done most fights as shadow.
    2. A “Flash Heal” on any hard mode should rarely be used other then on SoL proc’s. So your this specific heal does this much ehps while it isn’t even a main heal currently on Ulduar.
    3. As for your Math and this much haste does this much increase in hps and this much crit does this much hps is correct for a Holy priest Main tank healing.

    But as I have said before holy isn’t a main tank healing spec it has a diffrent role in raids. If your main spec is holy you prolly should have a disc dual spec for fights where the % increase on healing and shields are needed for Main Tank healing.

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  7. #47

    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by daonar
    haste = reliable HPS increase at the cost of mana being burned faster
    crit = unreliable HPS increase at no cost
    You fail again

  8. #48

    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drye
    It is 100% relevant, this just shows how little fights/hard modes you have done.
    You fail too... killing a boss isn't a prerequisite for me understanding theroycraft... if the boss didnt even exist it wouldn't change whether crit had x relationship to HPS.

    If you must know our guild is upto Yogg phase 3... so i've cleared all content on offer except Yogg and some hard modes... and that includes 3 drake sarth on both 10 & 25. Not all of us are members of guilds that raid 4-5 times per week... we raid 2 nights per week and are more casual based than most other progressed guilds...

    I guess it feels good to be elitist and claim because you've killed Yogg it means you know more about your class. Again when you post your ignorant claims without data to suppor them all you need to cite is you killed Yogg and that makes your claim true... how stupid of me.

  9. #49

    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    You fail too... killing a boss isn't a prerequisite for me understanding theroycraft... if the boss didnt even exist it wouldn't change whether crit had x relationship to HPS.

    If you must know our guild is upto Yogg phase 3... so i've cleared all content on offer except Yogg and some hard modes... and that includes 3 drake sarth on both 10 & 25. Not all of us are members of guilds that raid 4-5 times per week... we raid 2 nights per week and are more casual based than most other progressed guilds...

    I guess it feels good to be elitist and claim because you've killed Yogg it means you know more about your class. Again when you post your ignorant claims without data to suppor them all you need to cite is you killed Yogg and that makes your claim true... how stupid of me.
    Reading is for the ignorant I guess. I never once insulted your guild. All I have said was you were inexperienced in the fights. I also agreed that your theorycrafting was correct. However, as I have said multiple times but you have yet to understand is that flash heal is not a holy priests primary heal. A Holy priest should be raid healing and their top heals should be coming from PoH and CoH. Which crit benefits more the haste.

    So again please read correctly before you reply

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  10. #50

    Re: crit as holy?

    Actualy from a HPS perspective, haste gives greater reterns to PoH than CoH... I totally accept the argument that crit is more benefical to CoH primarily because it's an instant with a 6 sec CD... this isn't the case for PoH.

    However if you want to factor in serendipity you can mount an argument that there haste becomes slightly redundant because serendipity will provide all the haste you need to cast PoH. However that requires you use Flash Heal a lot more and is a lot more conditional on your healing style and what you cast during the course of an encounter.

    However if we just want to single out PoH as a 3 sec cast, haste is by far the superior stat to increase HPS.

    Furthermore, you did insult my guild/experience by insinuating that by not clearing one encounter I wasn't experienced. I've actually done the Yogg encounter upto and including phase 3 many times, however our guild just hasn't managed to clear it yet. If I clear the encounter tonight (which is likely) do I all of a sudden become more experienced and my understands of priest mechanics becomes more valid? Of course not... whether I clear the encounter or not is mutually exclusive from understanding theorycraft. If you want to argue a logistical aspect of a raid encounter, then sure i'll accept that I don't heal that often and that perhaps on logistical grounds something that looks good in theory might not be the case. However no one has put that argument forward, instead they want to hold onto the blanket statement that crit is good source of HPS... it isn't, its a terrible HPS stat.

  11. #51

    Re: crit as holy?

    Holy priest is just about balancing your stats, you don't want to much on anything. I use Mental Agility instead of Surge of Light. My current stats:

    Spell Power: 2249
    Mana: 26.000~
    Crit: 24.17%
    Haste: 407


  12. #52

    Re: crit as holy?

    There are many ways to play a heal priest in both spec's: i find myself as holy healing tanks and raid differently, i find other holy priests playing differently then me, i find myself as discipline healing tanks and raid differently, i find other discipline priests playing differently. The result usually is the same (unless you really need to l2p) where raid members don't die.

    You can go 'the spam mode' where you spam all your high HpS spells, this doesn't mean you'll be less needed then a more effective healer that heals when needed. You can heal only when needed - contributing high Effective HpS, this doesn't mean you'll be less needed then a spammer (though it will mean you are more effective as a healer).

    To my veiw a priest can spam as he wishs, if he likes that -stacking haste and int to provide the spam hps you want and ofc not to run oom. I do think healing with your brain other then spaming is much more important the random raid spam - but as mention both are important in different encounters: both hard modes and normal modes in ulduar 25m/10m.

    I don't see a reason to say crit OR haste. Crit has a high value for the priests who chose to heal with their brains and heal when its needed - and not throw random spam that isn't always needed. Both stats should go hand in hand and according to how you play and what you want to achieve.

    Crit and spirit will contribute to you regen as holy - a high crit will allow you to proc more often holy conc. via criting with renew, flash and greater heal (as tooltip indicates), spirit will increase the effect of holy conc. (in addition to contributing to your mp5s and spellpower). Haste and int will allow you to spam more spells, which will also allow you to keep holy conc. since you cast more times and you'll have the mana pool for it.

    As discipline Crit will allow you to proc more Divine Ageis, while haste will allow you to cast more spells - and allow more opportunities to proc divine ageis.

    I believe each priest has his style of healing, but usually its divided to the 2 healing styles i mentioned: spaming and contributing high hps on raid, and the second healing when needed contributing high hps when its actually needed. both are legit (though i find the spamers to fail on hard modes by going oom or just losing random raid members).

    In both ways its not Crit VS haste. Every priest will want a combination of both, and will chose which one he prefers acording to his playstyle.

    The true way to go is to get crit and haste to the level you want. Personally i prefer Crit over haste, since serendipity allows me to gain haste for my long cast spells, this doesn't mean i don't have haste - it just means i have more crit then haste, since i won't skip and item cause it has haste and not crit. Though there are encounters i swap afew items around towards haste and int, since some encounters requires consistant high hps.

    It really ends up as a matter of choice, but you should have both in a level that fits the way you play.

  13. #53
    Scarab Lord AetherMcLoud's Avatar
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    Re: crit as holy?

    Somehow this threads feels like a talkshow or IRC transcript:

    2fast4u: Yo I healz much faster than u!
    Crit-in-ma-pants: I healz much moar u n00b!
    2fast4u: LOLZ I heal moar because I heal moar often, dumbass!
    Crit-in-ma-pants: I don't need to healz moar because my healz r betta!
    2fast4u: U B dumb? You're critz are just overhealz!
    Crit-in-ma-pants: Not all crits are overheals, crits can save lifes too!
    2fast4u: ROFL I never crit, I shit on crit! I have 100% haste but my heals heal for shit!
    2fast4u: I mean crit dammit!!!

    VoiceOfReason: There there, things will be ok. None of you is exactly right and none of you is exactly wrong. It depends on playstyle a lot and personal opinion. Healing isn't a race just like DPSing is. As long as you keep people alive you're doing something right.

    Crit-in-ma-pants: no u!
    2fast4u: no u!

    VoiceOfReason: /wrists
    I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite signature on the forum.

  14. #54

    Re: crit as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by AetherMcLoud
    Somehow this threads feels like a talkshow or IRC transcript:

    2fast4u: Yo I healz much faster than u!
    Crit-in-ma-pants: I healz much moar u n00b!
    2fast4u: LOLZ I heal moar because I heal moar often, dumbass!
    Crit-in-ma-pants: I don't need to healz moar because my healz r betta!
    2fast4u: U B dumb? You're critz are just overhealz!
    Crit-in-ma-pants: Not all crits are overheals, crits can save lifes too!
    2fast4u: ROFL I never crit, I shit on crit! I have 100% haste but my heals heal for shit!
    2fast4u: I mean crit dammit!!!

    VoiceOfReason: There there, things will be ok. None of you is exactly right and none of you is exactly wrong. It depends on playstyle a lot and personal opinion. Healing isn't a race just like DPSing is. As long as you keep people alive you're doing something right.

    Crit-in-ma-pants: no u!
    2fast4u: no u!

    VoiceOfReason: /wrists


    so true!

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