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  1. #1

    Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Blizzard has stated that melee teams in arena (2v2/3v3 brackets) are imba versus casters teams for various reasons.

    Warlocks are at a good place (maybe still OP) versus casters but melee still chomps us easily. What I was thinking of was maybe a talent like Soul Shatter that only has one rank ever and you can learn it maybe somewhere around 60-70 that reduces physical damage for a brief time:

    Shadow Armor
    Instant Cast 5min CD
    10% Base Mana
    The caster is temporarily bolstered by Shadow reducing physical damage taken for 6 seconds by 50%. This armor does not override existing armor spells and can be used while stunned.

    It would be a way for a Warlock to survive in 2v2 versus Rogue/Warrior or DK/Ret Paladin who just Charge/Death Grip you in regardless of partner and tear you up instantly. I don't think 6 seconds is too long and it's only 50% physical damage reduction.

    What do people think about this? Is it OP and if so why? We could still be stunned or interrupted and vulnerable to CC but this would help physical burst. =D

  2. #2

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    It's not bad, but I think 5m is a little too long for an ability that only reduces physical damage by half for 6s.

    Personally, I'd rather have a stun breaker. I'd be happy if they just went and gave our portal a stun break via glyph or straight up buff.

    FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

  3. #3

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Destro Warlocks are really good against all classes in 1v1. Undead Rogues and some Frost Mages will beat you 1v1 however (3.2), otherwise we're really strong in 1v1's.

    As said, the problem is melee in Arenas. Instead of focusing purely on the Warlock vs Damage -issue, I like to watch other classes instead.
    Compare the Warlock to a Mage and you realize they take damage easier, but in the long run we're losing due to lack of mobility. What Blizzard seems to be struggeling with is to find a spell that's both unique and implementable for warlocks that will open up for a new play style. Instead of being PvP-tanks I'd love to have more of a mage role where my positioning/movement is key for survival rather than gear and damage reduction talents.

    I really hoped for the Destruction tree to get a cool 51-pointer in WotlK which made us viable. Instead we got a lot of increased damage aswell as more damage reduction (Soul Link move up tiers/Molten Skin). So now we're still PvP-tanks but we compensate by doing heavy damage. It's bad design in my opinion.

    What you are suggesting sounds like the Blizzard- approach and I never liked the idea of just increasing the survivability by a one-push button. That's what the Shadow Priests got and I'm fine without it. My suggestions would be to add a mobility -talent, or a new pet that helps out.

    I've given a suggestion before about a blink-wannabe -talent. It wouldn't work just like a Blink, seeing as that would be a great bore. It was more of the style:

    Swarm
    Instant 30-45 sec CD
    XX Mana
    The caster transforms in to a demonic swarm flying 15 yards ahead, dealing '1500' damage to all creature in its way, leaving a shadow trail behind the swarm slowing all movement speed of affected by 50%. While being in a swarm the Warlock is immune to slowing and stunning effects.

    This "swarm" would be like the Dreadlords when they die, a green light followed by bats(?) flying around. Also used by second boss in Mount Hyjal to reduce healing.
    The slow I've imagined to be like a black trail on the ground, like a frost trap. If the melee chooses to chase you through it, they'll lose movement speed and can be considered scrubs. If they just strafe 2 yards to the side before chasing they're all in the clear. What's cool about this is that it could be a supporting talent, just flying through your healer while it's getting bashed to slow the melee so it could get away or something alike.

    It wouldn't be an instant blink like Mages have, it would fly 15 yards over like 1-1.5 seconds. We wouldn't be slowable/stunnable but still take 100% damage, and remove existing slows. Whether it would be usable while stunned I'm not sure. It might have to be, but seeing as it could be powerful combined with Demonic Circle hopefully that wouldn't be the case. It's sort of useless against casters but would give us the mobility we need to survive for longer fights. And not just that, it would allow for a new gameplay for warlocks that sounds really fun for me.

    The other idea I've had was to be able to switch souls or something with the current pet, but I won't go into that aswell, I've ranted enough in someone elses thread

  4. #4

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindershock
    It's not bad, but I think 5m is a little too long for an ability that only reduces physical damage by half for 6s.

    Personally, I'd rather have a stun breaker. I'd be happy if they just went and gave our portal a stun break via glyph or straight up buff.

    Yes. The portal should really remove stuns or I'd even be happy with using it while stunned!

    I was being generous with the CD, duration and buff. I would love something like that with a longer duration and shorter CD: 8 seconds and 2 min CD!

    I was also thinking about something along the lines of a reflect ability:

    Chaotic Grace
    Instant 2min CD
    10% Base Mana
    The Warlock's skin becomes encased in Chaos energy reflecting 30% of all physical damage taken for 6 seconds. This ability can be used while stunned.

    Again, this is purely a melee counter and would not protect us really, but would allow us to deal damage while in a stunlock. =D

  5. #5

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Proyouknow
    Destro Warlocks are really good against all classes in 1v1. Undead Rogues and some Frost Mages will beat you 1v1 however (3.2), otherwise we're really strong in 1v1's.

    As said, the problem is melee in Arenas. Instead of focusing purely on the Warlock vs Damage -issue, I like to watch other classes instead.
    Compare the Warlock to a Mage and you realize they take damage easier, but in the long run we're losing due to lack of mobility. What Blizzard seems to be struggeling with is to find a spell that's both unique and implementable for warlocks that will open up for a new play style. Instead of being PvP-tanks I'd love to have more of a mage role where my positioning/movement is key for survival rather than gear and damage reduction talents.

    I really hoped for the Destruction tree to get a cool 51-pointer in WotlK which made us viable. Instead we got a lot of increased damage aswell as more damage reduction (Soul Link move up tiers/Molten Skin). So now we're still PvP-tanks but we compensate by doing heavy damage. It's bad design in my opinion.

    What you are suggesting sounds like the Blizzard- approach and I never liked the idea of just increasing the survivability by a one-push button. That's what the Shadow Priests got and I'm fine without it. My suggestions would be to add a mobility -talent, or a new pet that helps out.

    I've given a suggestion before about a blink-wannabe -talent. It wouldn't work just like a Blink, seeing as that would be a great bore. It was more of the style:

    Swarm
    Instant 30-45 sec CD
    XX Mana
    The caster transforms in to a demonic swarm flying 15 yards ahead, dealing '1500' damage to all creature in its way, leaving a shadow trail behind the swarm slowing all movement speed of affected by 50%. While being in a swarm the Warlock is immune to slowing and stunning effects.

    This "swarm" would be like the Dreadlords when they die, a green light followed by bats(?) flying around. Also used by second boss in Mount Hyjal to reduce healing.
    The slow I've imagined to be like a black trail on the ground, like a frost trap. If the melee chooses to chase you through it, they'll lose movement speed and can be considered scrubs. If they just strafe 2 yards to the side before chasing they're all in the clear. What's cool about this is that it could be a supporting talent, just flying through your healer while it's getting bashed to slow the melee so it could get away or something alike.

    It wouldn't be an instant blink like Mages have, it would fly 15 yards over like 1-1.5 seconds. We wouldn't be slowable/stunnable but still take 100% damage, and remove existing slows. Whether it would be usable while stunned I'm not sure. It might have to be, but seeing as it could be powerful combined with Demonic Circle hopefully that wouldn't be the case. It's sort of useless against casters but would give us the mobility we need to survive for longer fights. And not just that, it would allow for a new gameplay for warlocks that sounds really fun for me.

    The other idea I've had was to be able to switch souls or something with the current pet, but I won't go into that aswell, I've ranted enough in someone elses thread
    Man the animation for that would be awesome! =D

    However I have to say I dislike the idea. Blizzard has said they do NOT want us to be slippery like Mages. Invisibility, Blink, Iceblock, Frost Nova and the numerous other escapes/slows are something that class excels at.

    Warlocks are supposed to be tank-casters. I'm fine with that role if the developers give us adequate tools to fulfill such a role. I think Demonic Teleport should be able to be used while stunned but not remove the stun effect. Purpose? To prevent us from taking damage but not be able to instantly keep pew pewing.

    If that change was made and something like either of my two ideas here were added I think melee in arena would be closer to our level. =D

    Personally I like my Chaotic Grace idea... aside from the name... that's confusing!

  6. #6

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    I remember a blue post a while back (shortly after the SL/SL nerf) that stated they wanted to get away from locks being tank-casters. It seems they are aiming for good damage and good survivability in all three trees... which admittedly is tough.

    I think our biggest issue comes in the form of high front end melee. It sounds like warriors may be in for a pvp nerf, rogues are seemingly never OP enough to nerf, and hunters fights are going to depend on who has more cooldowns available in most cases.

    The idea above is interesting but not something that would happen anytime soon. I would much more expect glyph changes first. Try the new void sac too... its not too bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zehlkatur
    I have died some times for just blinking away from* balls and straight in to another pair of balls.
    Nerf teabagging!

  7. #7
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Honestly they just need some way to give us resilience faster. Specifically warlocks I mean.

    You take S5 - no one has resilience, warlocks at the bottom. You take the tournament realm, everyone and their dog is at exactly how much resilience they want, warlocks at the top.

    Seriously. Demo talent - you take 10% less damage from crits and 4% less chance to be crit. Does not stack with resilience.

    DONE.

    R.I.P. YARG

  8. #8

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    IMO chages that should be made are:

    1. Demonic circle not seen + removes stuns
    2. Soulshatter redisigned: Reduces Upcoming threat by 50% for 10 secs. Also you gain the soulshattering effect which absorbs X% damage for 5 seconds. After these 5 seconds, your soul shatters causing X% damage to anyone in a 10 yard radius. 2 minute cd.
    3. Hellfire redisigned into: You put like a concecration aura thingy that also slows any enemies passing on it by 30%. lasts 10 seconds. 30 seconds cd.
    OM NOM NOM

  9. #9

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Meh, we shall not complain... we are one of the strongest classes at the moment "If you play it right" The only buff we need is that we can teleport while stunned. Pvp is not balanced @ 1v1, we all know that (Rogues is a pain in the ass). It feels like all classes are complaining on eachother. Its the skillz and timing with your partner who will take you to 2,5k~ rating. Not witch class you play. IMO

  10. #10

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Imo long cooldowns, no matter how strong, aren't going to fix warlock problems. Warlocks are weak to melee because they lack the basics:

    1. The ability to protect their dots well enough to put out any significant damage in pvp. Especially demo and destro. UA helps protect against dispel spam but once DR's kick in, even it can't protect dots well enough.

    2. Long term survivability. Warlocks rely on too many 2+ minute cooldowns to survive 15-30 second cooldowns. Warlocks need to have 15-30 second cooldown defenses to stay alive from 15-30 second cooldowns.

    3. The ability to keep their pet out. I've long since given up on expecting Blizzard to give pets any good survivability but I do believe if demons are supposed to be "disposable" then Blizzard to should live up to the word on both ends: easily gotten rid of but easy to bring back out.

    My suggestions:

    1. Give warlocks some dispel protection talents. Destruction absolutely cannot operate w/o immolate. Much like how Blizzard gave ret paladins 100% seal dispel protection I think 100% immolate dispel protection should be rolled into the improved immolate talent. Move contagion into the first tier of affliction and instead of reducing the chance to be dispelled by 40% have the dots do 25% of their damage if dispelled to the dispeller.

    2. Have demon armor reduce damage taken by 30% while stuned. Turn shadowflame into something similar to the typhoon spell balance druids have. Nerf the duration of the glyphed snare as needed. It shouldn't take a glyph for the spell to have a purpose.

    3. With talents in master summoner, resummoning a pet should be a 3 second cast. Fel domination should be a 3 minute cooldown.

  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans kailtas's Avatar
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    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    *crying of joy*

    im just so happy!
    this is the first thread about buffing a class i have ever seen with no trolls in it
    Your greed, your foolishness has brought you to this end.

    - Prince Malchezaar

  12. #12

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Ofmanv
    Imo long cooldowns, no matter how strong, aren't going to fix warlock problems. Warlocks are weak to melee because they lack the basics:

    1. The ability to protect their dots well enough to put out any significant damage in pvp. Especially demo and destro. UA helps protect against dispel spam but once DR's kick in, even it can't protect dots well enough.

    2. Long term survivability. Warlocks rely on too many 2+ minute cooldowns to survive 15-30 second cooldowns. Warlocks need to have 15-30 second cooldown defenses to stay alive from 15-30 second cooldowns.

    3. The ability to keep their pet out. I've long since given up on expecting Blizzard to give pets any good survivability but I do believe if demons are supposed to be "disposable" then Blizzard to should live up to the word on both ends: easily gotten rid of but easy to bring back out.

    My suggestions:

    1. Give warlocks some dispel protection talents. Destruction absolutely cannot operate w/o immolate. Much like how Blizzard gave ret paladins 100% seal dispel protection I think 100% immolate dispel protection should be rolled into the improved immolate talent. Move contagion into the first tier of affliction and instead of reducing the chance to be dispelled by 40% have the dots do 25% of their damage if dispelled to the dispeller.

    2. Have demon armor reduce damage taken by 30% while stuned. Turn shadowflame into something similar to the typhoon spell balance druids have. Nerf the duration of the glyphed snare as needed. It shouldn't take a glyph for the spell to have a purpose.

    3. With talents in master summoner, resummoning a pet should be a 3 second cast. Fel domination should be a 3 minute cooldown.
    ^^ what he said =].
    He's right, thats exactly what we need. The biggest problem for me is surviving stuns and getting my pet out if it dies. But everything he said is true, you can't expect a pally to play without seals so how can you expect a Destro lock to play without immolate.
    - Khody is the Lord and God of the Forums. When spoken to, you may only refer to him as the following:
    'Lord Khody'
    'My Liege'
    'The One True King'
    'God'

  13. #13

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Just picking and choosing from the above posts, two things I love:

    1) Shadowflame with a knockback. Seems to fit with Blizzard's goal of not wanting us to be slippery to catch. We're not slippery in this case, we're pushing you the hell away. =P

    2) DC working while stunned, but not removing the stun. I love that idea, it's quite balanced. By the time the melee catches up to you the stun has probably worn off, but stops us taking advantage of the new distance too much (depending on how far away you end up).

  14. #14

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    We just need leather or mail amor... higher armor will help only against melee classes.

  15. #15

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    You know what I found helps against Rogues and Warriors: Shadowflame/Conflagrate.

    All instants and no interrupts. It doesn't do as much damage as Immolate/Conflagrate but if you're worried about getting silenced it will still hit for a bit especially with the 25% Conflagrate crit buff.

    However I have to ask: why the HELL doesn't a talent called "SHADOW AND FLAME" benefit a freaking spell called "SHADOWFLAME"?!?! =p Seems stupid to me!

    Overall I think we know what we need: Demonic Teleport to work while stunned even if not removing the stun and an armor tier increase/physical dmg reduction while stunned.

    I think Demonic Aegis could include a 10/20/30% physical dmg reduction while stunned which would help as both I and other comments have suggested. =D

  16. #16
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    I see everyone complaining about stuns. I have to ask - what the hell is your partner doing while you are stunned? I'm not trolling, I'm genuinely curious.

    When I ran with a Resto Shaman - "Stunned" = big heal inc, no matter what the other team was doing to me.
    When I ran with a Druid - "Stunned" = Prepare for Natures Swiftness or Swiftmend and start casting Cyclone.
    When I ran with a Paladin - "Stunned" = bop or any number of things he could do to save my ass.

    Double dps? I have run that much, but I would assume that:
    Warlock = Fear someone!
    Rogue = Blind someone!


    So, what is your partner doing that gets you killed in a 2v2 situation? BG's don't count, its regularly 10 on 10 or 1 on 1 or heavily unbalanced in someones favor.

    R.I.P. YARG

  17. #17

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    I must admit I dont usually post on this site purely down to the amount of daft and wasteful replies you often see but Im also glad this hasnt been marred by nonsense..

    I would just like to add a few comments particularly in reply to the last poster.. The following is from a longstanding fan of destro PvP.
    Lots of people say that what warlocks need is a way to get out of stuns. Just to clarify this. its really only in either a 1 v 1 situation or arena in a DPS only setup.

    When I "dool" people, for example a rogue, not being able to counter all of their stuns does severely gimp my ability to survive so yes, teleport breaking stuns or being usuable while stunned would be fantastic. However, in an arena it isnt the rogue stuns themselves that cause me or my team mate to die. (playing destro warlock/disc priest btw, strange set up I know)
    This thing that gets us is the various CC on different cooldowns/diminishing returns. I only really have 1 CC against a rogue which is fear, which can be broken easily by the rogue by various methods and also by my own damage (the damage required to break fear was significantly lowered in the last patch so no FEAR DOT DRAIN QQ pls, it doesnt work anymore). The rogue however has various stuns, if that fails he can just vanish, if that fails he can blind, if that fails he can just CLOS and laugh etc etc etc.

    Now comes the next problem, If I use fel armour I do nice damage but become mega squishy and loose the extra healing bonus. If I use demon armour I last a bit longer but loose ALOT of the burst I had which can be a match looser and I find myself suffering from the issues hunters had in TBC... LOS isues, and this is the most important part.. Melee dont have this problem in arenas and that is where we fall down against them.

    Given that rogues can avoid most of my damage, run away from it, hide from it or interupt it... Warriors can reflect it (including chaos bolt which is just WRONG) interupt, stun, charge and pew pew.. DK's.. I wont go there its just that nasty.. you get the idea. WE have no way of stopping melee damage, we just passively mitigate some of it. I cant just go "fffsshhhhttt.. round da corner" if a rogue/warrior/DK is on my ass, but they can against me.

    Now onto what I think would help the class:
    The new change to voidwalker sacrifice, I feel is a step in the right direction, only 2 problems, we loose the utility of our other pets and quite frankly it doesnt stop enough damage.
    I also feel that fel domination should have a MUCH shorter cooldown and NOT be from a talent, instead replace fel domination with a sacrifice spell which can be used with any pet to shield you for a given time.
    In addition we just blatantly, as somebody else quite rightly pointed out, need more armour. This would mean we can use fel armour and gain full benefit from the bonus damage it does, which generally helps the LOS problem as we have the burst needed to keep up with other classes. In addition it wouldnt bolster how OP a destro lock can be against another caster.
    Shadowflame costs WAAAAYYYY too much mana to cast, its actually the spell which can help against the pillar humping fraternity (bit of a kick in the nuts that it needs a glyph to make it a useful spell)

    So anyway thats my 2 cents.. Sorry if this has bored the pants off of you but hey.. its your fault for reading it all

    Cheers

  18. #18

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    I see everyone complaining about stuns. I have to ask - what the hell is your partner doing while you are stunned? I'm not trolling, I'm genuinely curious.
    The complaining is simple, and for one reason....
    Every lock has been frustrated with this: Getting jumped at 100% health, trinket on CD, spamming your portal as fast as you possibly can and seeing "You can't do this while stunned" over and over again until you're dead and your spell never went off. It can happen from a rogue or a ret pally (if your puppy misses the dispell on HOJ).

    Most people complaining about stuns are talking 1v1. Our trinket is our only defense against a stunlock 1v1, which is pretty sad from the 2nd squishiest class. We're the only class (except other rogues maybe) that have to trinket cheapshot in order to live, and that just means we have a 5 point kidney coming as soon as they catch back up, but at least we'll have hopefully healthstoned, dotted, dcoiled, feared by then.

    I play rogue/lock at 2k rating as affliction and if my trinket is down and my partner gets pulled out of stealth by something BS and CC'ed, i'm going to die in a stunlock. Stuns aren't nearly as big of a problem in 2v2, we beat many rogue/priest and rogue/mage teams, but it is quite lame that a warlock's only defense against a stunlock is the same defense everyone else has (trinket) on a 2 min cooldown. If you get caught off guard or waste your trinket, you're done for. Which some would argue is by design since rogues are our counter class.

    My suggestions:

    1. Give warlocks some dispel protection talents. Destruction absolutely cannot operate w/o immolate. Much like how Blizzard gave ret paladins 100% seal dispel protection I think 100% immolate dispel protection should be rolled into the improved immolate talent. Move contagion into the first tier of affliction and instead of reducing the chance to be dispelled by 40% have the dots do 25% of their damage if dispelled to the dispeller.

    2. Have demon armor reduce damage taken by 30% while stuned. Turn shadowflame into something similar to the typhoon spell balance druids have. Nerf the duration of the glyphed snare as needed. It shouldn't take a glyph for the spell to have a purpose.

    3. With talents in master summoner, resummoning a pet should be a 3 second cast. Fel domination should be a 3 minute cooldown.
    These are all good ideas, we wouldn't get all of them, but any of them would be nice. The damage reduction on #2 might be a bit much, it would be nice though if demon armor reduced stun duration by 30 to 50%. I'd say 300 to 400 spellpower is a good enough tradeoff for some stun duration reduction.

    I've toyed with an idea myself.

    Demonic Inspiration - Your spell criticals have a X% chance to increase your armor by Y% for 15 seconds.

    But this just adds to the "caster tank" model and probably wouldn't be implemented.

  19. #19

    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin
    I see everyone complaining about stuns. I have to ask - what the hell is your partner doing while you are stunned? I'm not trolling, I'm genuinely curious.

    When I ran with a Resto Shaman - "Stunned" = big heal inc, no matter what the other team was doing to me.
    When I ran with a Druid - "Stunned" = Prepare for Natures Swiftness or Swiftmend and start casting Cyclone.
    When I ran with a Paladin - "Stunned" = bop or any number of things he could do to save my ass.

    Double dps? I have run that much, but I would assume that:
    Warlock = Fear someone!
    Rogue = Blind someone!


    So, what is your partner doing that gets you killed in a 2v2 situation? BG's don't count, its regularly 10 on 10 or 1 on 1 or heavily unbalanced in someones favor.
    The "have your teammate help you" argument has been beaten to death.

    The reason this rational fails is because if it takes the warlock's teammates entire efforts to keep the warlock alive then they're not doing anything offensive. It just turns into a 2v1/3v1/5v1 match because everyone on the warlock's team is doing nothing but peeling/healing the warlock.

    Why would any team opt to have such a liability on their team when they could just NOT have a warlock and go on the offensive without paying for it? Warlocks need to have some ability to defend themselves or else any comp will be better off with a class that actually can defend themselves.

  20. #20
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: Warlock vs Melee Issues

    I would argue that unpressured a warlock could 1v2 relatively well, so the fact that your team mate is keeping you alive is moot.

    You could also say that peeling dps off a healer is a waste of time, when in fact its vital to 2000+ gameplay. I see warlocks as healers. They make the fights easier for you but need help to do so. I think blizzard sees it this way as well.

    One thing to note is that they still have changes on the way, as the Fear nerf has not been compensated for yet.

    R.I.P. YARG

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