A couple of prot questions.

[Looneybin]

1)vindication or eye for an eye usable for prot?
I heard from somewhere once upon a time that these talents dont work on pve mobs, is this true?
If it does work against raid bosses, which would be a better choice?

2)Is divine sacrifice a must have talent as MT?

[roeleert]

1)vindication or eye for an eye usable for prot?
I heard from somewhere once upon a time that these talents dont work on pve mobs, is this true?
If it does work against raid bosses, which would be a better choice?

2)Is divine sacrifice a must have talent as MT?

no. since a protection paladin should be uncrittable, you will never see the effect of EfoE
vindication doesnt work on bosses afaik
DS isnt a must have but it's really nice for certain moments in boss fights to relieve the stress of AoE healing

[cappytoi]

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...=21933#p404158

check here, you'll see with reasons.

[Lightstrike]

Vindication and eye for an eye aren't good choices as people have mentioned before, the former doesnt work on bosses and the latter only occurs on a crit... and crits are bad as a tank.

I would recommend getting DS, if you don't want to improve it go for improved HoJ instead.
Let's face it, there are times when there is significant raid damage, and even when it isn't huge raid damage, it could be times when the tank takes increased damage such as hodirs frozen blows or thorims unbalancing strike, and at these times popping a DSDS combo could well save a wipe and result in a boss kill.

It is extremely useful and for one point it's a huge bonus. If we are maintanking all of the time then it has less use, but let's face it.. right now we do not have enough cooldowns to properly tank mimiron on phase 1 for example, however if we are offtanking it, we can easily provide some melee dps and DSDS for one of the plasma blast which helps everyone.

[Biznick]

^ we've got enough cooldowns for 2 plasma blasts. (DP/sanc glyph)

it depends on the healers/deeps

[Moxal]

Kind of a related question here:

My prot alt will not be raiding and has a druid healer I usually run heroics with. Currently I picked up the talent to improve Sacred Shield.

It seems to help quite a bit as long as I keep it up. I do seem to 'absorb' quite a few hits on bosses/trash.

Is this a waste of talent points?

[grymgroeth]

Damage reduction is never wasted.

[Offhand]

A holy paladin's sacred shield will crush yours in any raid situation.

DG/DS is probably the best three points you can take at that point anyway though. You can pop it in a number of fights as MT (XT, Council, Thorim, Mimiron, etc)

[Moxal]

Thanks for the replies!

I like the talent, and enjoy the damage reduction. I figured it would help as I gear up in heroics (I'm wearing mostly crafted/heroic/quested stuff currently) as I don't plan to raid on this alt.

[Lightstrike]

^ we've got enough cooldowns for 2 plasma blasts. (DP/sanc glyph)

it depends on the healers/deeps

To be honest to have glyph of salvation, you're going to be dropping something good, and glyphing for one fight seems a bit silly imo, especially when you could just let another class do the phase or at least swap in for one of the blasts.

[Draco cracona]

To be honest to have glyph of salvation, you're going to be dropping something good, and glyphing for one fight seems a bit silly imo, especially when you could just let another class do the phase or at least swap in for one of the blasts.

Dropping 10% judgement damage for a survivability CD is a good tradeoff for me, as we've got enough of a threat lead in most situations, not to mention that it's a CD viable in a lot of fights.

[Offhand]

Dropping 10% judgement damage for a survivability CD is a good tradeoff for me, as we've got enough of a threat lead in most situations, not to mention that it's a CD viable in a lot of fights.

10% judgment damage = 1% increase in threat. In other words, if you need this as a prot paladin, you're doing something wrong.

[trangoul]

Basically there are 3 main trees of though for MT builds:
Barring the discussion on reckoning those points are swappable in 1 and 3. I prefer reckoning to increase procs on the main hand weapon. Blade warding / mongoose benefit a decent bit from it.

1) An extra Oh SH|T button to press build: (I'm not a fan of this one, but its a good build for hardmodes, with aura mastery for a 4%ish added 10 second reduction and Imp LoH is like a 22% shield wall for its duration)

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9901

2) Max Threat with all tanking talents necessary (Decent for progression)

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9901

3) Max mitigation / Survivability (I use this one)

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9901

Really, from all three of these you can see the core talents you really need, but theres about 13-15 points that you can move around. Also, never get more than 1 point in improved judgements. The tanking rotation is a cooldown rotation of 6/9/6/9/6/9/etc and having judgement at 8 seconds will not increase you TPS or DPS at all when using the proper rotation.

[Lightstrike]

There is no discussion on reckoning, it sucks.

point for point, the cost of it is extremely poor even with mongoose or bladewarding in comparison to conviction for tps, with the added drawback you need to use one of those 2 enchants for it to have any plus points to its name.

The only really viable specs are 0/53/18 or 0/54/17 if you want 2/2 SA.

2 points early on can either be put into improved hoj or divine guardian.

[Biznick]

To be honest to have glyph of salvation, you're going to be dropping something good, and glyphing for one fight seems a bit silly imo, especially when you could just let another class do the phase or at least swap in for one of the blasts.

well it does come in handy for other fights, like hodir, general, most of the trash, XT, kologarn, cat lady, and ignis.

its pretty useful

i dropped glyph of vengence for it, and see as physical dmg doesn't account for much of our threat output, i havn't seen any negatives.

To OP though and everyone else who seems to think DS is necessary for a MT: it is not necessary for a MT, actually it is a waste of 3 points. You tell me one boss fight divine sacrifice/divine shield is ever a good thing for the MT to pop, and maybe ill change my mind.

On the other hand - divine sacrifice is a must have talent for a pally OT.

[Lightstrike]

XT002. Win.


You can safely use it during the tantrums as long as you know how to use /cancelaura

[Biznick]

XT002. Win.


You can safely use it during the tantrums as long as you know how to use /cancelaura

thats true, but typically i tank XT by the stairs putting me out of range for most of our ranged deeps.

also, XT isa joke and his tantrums have never really been a problem. him alone isn't reason enough to spec into it.

[Lightstrike]

Well let's put it this way, for one point, since you dont have to upgrade it, it's a good way to spend that point.. I don't expect to maintank all of the time because i know that it might be best for the raid for me to offtank a fight instead. Be it because other tanks have better cooldowns, or I have better threat that is needed on adds, either way it might be advantagious for me not to tank.

I use DSDS when im not taking damage on kologarn for his OBLIVION!!!!!!!! palm to the face, so it does get its uses so you cant discount tanking rotation fights either.

It provides a lot of utility for little cost... it pains me to see people use specs without DS and a point in reckoning for the filler..

[Biznick]

Well let's put it this way, for one point, since you dont have to upgrade it, it's a good way to spend that point.. I don't expect to maintank all of the time because i know that it might be best for the raid for me to offtank a fight instead. Be it because other tanks have better cooldowns, or I have better threat that is needed on adds, either way it might be advantagious for me not to tank.

I use DSDS when im not taking damage on kologarn for his OBLIVION!!!!!!!! palm to the face, so it does get its uses so you cant discount tanking rotation fights either.

It provides a lot of utility for little cost... it pains me to see people use specs without DS and a point in reckoning for the filler..

this is fine, the only problem w/ my guild is that im the only tank that knows how to tank all the fights. Others that we pick up are too cautious, and dont wanna MT a fight. So its w/e in my pov, if youre gonna see yourself offtanking than pick it up, cause its an awesome raid utility. But if your Maintanking 100% of the time like me, dont bother with it.

[Offhand]

him alone isn't reason enough to spec into it.

XT, Razor, Ignis (if you're good), Council, Kologarn, Thorim, Mimiron (phases 2/3).

That's half of Ulduar already, I haven't even seen Yogg yet.