Petition Post, worth the read

[Kristiansen]

http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=56217

Read it, and dont tell me you dont want it this way

[Swiftz]

Off topic, but the place seems right...

AJ has completely stopped responding for almost 2 days for me, anyone else having troubles accessing the site? (from Europe/US ?)

[Kristiansen]

Dont let the thread die!<3

[riflemancho]

Dont let the thread die!<3

bump :

[Offhand]

For some reason, a bunch of duelists and glads from s2-s4 telling Blizzard that they want arena to be like s2-s4 doesn't carry much weight for anyone at all.

You're basically telling the Republican party how much you hate gay people and they're all agreeing. Who would have guessed?

[lizard]

I respectfully disagree. Basically, there are two different directions which arena balance can take:
a) the chess game. both teams have to develop sophisticated tactics and counter-tactics and counter-counter-tactics.
b) LOLPWN. both teams rush into another, kick all their cooldowns and the team with better gear/class setup ends up winning after a very short time.

any intelligent person can guess that direction b) may be fun on the short term but ends up being very boring on the long term, since all you do is push the same 4-5 buttons every time and see what happens.
the problem about direction a) is that to be successful, you actually have to think and practice a lot.
since WoW is sliding to being more and more casual-friendly and since a lot of players do not regard arena as important compared to, say, pve raiding, blizz smartly reduces the chess game to a minimum, allowing the masses of mindless drones to get their casual fun while the actual depth of the (arena)game is reduced to a bare minimum.

edit: as an argument to prove my point, take a look at these statistics: http://www.arenajunkies.com/calculator/

what you can see is that in almost all realm pools, there are easily three times as many 2v2 teams as there are 3v3 and 10 times or even 100 times more 2v2s than 5v5s. if 5v5 and 3v3 was equally popular to 2v2, there should be only about 1.5 times as many 2v2s as 3v3s and only 2.5 times as many 2v2s as 5v5s. conclusion: for some reason, 2v2 is overproportionally popular.
the most obvious reason for this is that in 2s, you can only have 2 DPS classes at most, so the chance for a 10 second nukefest is the smallest. in fact, most successful 2v2 teams consist of healer/dd, playing (*gasp*) the chess game in rather long matches.

[Jerazznor]

I respectfully disagree. Basically, there are two different directions which arena balance can take:
a) the chess game. both teams have to develop sophisticated tactics and counter-tactics and counter-counter-tactics.
b) LOLPWN. both teams rush into another, kick all their cooldowns and the team with better gear/class setup ends up winning after a very short time.

any intelligent person can guess that direction b) may be fun on the short term but ends up being very boring on the long term, since all you do is push the same 4-5 buttons every time and see what happens.
the problem about direction a) is that to be successful, you actually have to think and practice a lot.
since WoW is sliding to being more and more casual-friendly and since a lot of players do not regard arena as important compared to, say, pve raiding, blizz smartly reduces the chess game to a minimum, allowing the masses of mindless drones to get their casual fun while the actual depth of the (arena)game is reduced to a bare minimum.

edit: as an argument to prove my point, take a look at these statistics: http://www.arenajunkies.com/calculator/

what you can see is that in almost all realm pools, there are easily three times as many 2v2 teams as there are 3v3 and 10 times or even 100 times more 2v2s than 5v5s. if 5v5 and 3v3 was equally popular to 2v2, there should be only about 1.5 times as many 2v2s as 3v3s and only 2.5 times as many 2v2s as 5v5s. conclusion: for some reason, 2v2 is overproportionally popular.
the most obvious reason for this is that in 2s, you can only have 2 DPS classes at most, so the chance for a 10 second nukefest is the smallest. in fact, most successful 2v2 teams consist of healer/dd, playing (*gasp*) the chess game in rather long matches.

This. People getting blown up in 3 GCDs does not happen unless they are severely undergeared and their opponent is BiS. The chess game is still alive, but now instead of taking a series of 10-15 moves to make a kill, it takes 5-10. And thank god for that.

[unmortal]

They are just making it so all the average people can excel in arena. Why? well because they want more money. At the same time this takes out major skill in arena , getting all the good people pissed.

[lizard]

This. People getting blown up in 3 GCDs does not happen unless they are severely undergeared and their opponent is BiS. The chess game is still alive, but now instead of taking a series of 10-15 moves to make a kill, it takes 5-10. And thank god for that.

you misunderstood my post completely. and as for 3gcds: my priest m8 was killed by combat rogue + ret in under 7 seconds the other day. I saw the rogue engage, instantly charged, trinketed blind and bladestormed to not get hammered. before the bladestorm was done, my mate was dead. combat log showed that he had used PS at ~80% and his resilience is 1k-ish. i did the only 3 moves possible and we lost. great fun.

[Jerazznor]

you misunderstood my post completely. and as for 3gcds: my priest m8 was killed by combat rogue + ret in under 7 seconds the other day. I saw the rogue engage, instantly charged, trinketed blind and bladestormed to not get hammered. before the bladestorm was done, my mate was dead. combat log showed that he had used PS at ~80% and his resilience is 1k-ish. i did the only 3 moves possible and we lost. great fun.

I never would have guess that 2 melee would tear apart a clothie in 5 seconds when they pop all of their CDs and the priest gets no help. The same shit would have happened in BC.

Also, before you say "I HELPED". You didn't intervene, you didn't disarm, you didn't do anything to get them off your priest. So no, you didn't help.

[lizard]

I never would have guess that 2 melee would tear apart a clothie in 5 seconds when they pop all of their CDs and the priest gets no help. The same shit would have happened in BC.

Also, before you say "I HELPED". You didn't intervene, you didn't disarm, you didn't do anything to get them off your priest. So no, you didn't help.

1. wrong. NO F'ING WAY would a priest in bc die to 2 melees with PS on him. well equipped priests could actually kill most melees 1on1 before they even went OOM.

2. I couldn't have done ANYTHING else to help my priest. intervene catches 1 (ONE) physical attack which will likely be an offhand dagger hit from the rogue. when I intervene, I'm in melee range and cannot charge any more. so I could not intervene.
If I had done ANYTHING besides bladestorm, I would have been stunned for 6 seconds afterwards. even if I HAD disarmed one of the two for 5 seconds, they would still have killed my priest a few seconds later. there is no way for me to keep them away from him and after PS, he would still be in kidney for 1-2 seconds before he could even begin to heal through the poison. oh wait, he couldn't; the pal was blood elf and the rogue likely had imp. kick.
bottom line: I had to kill one of them or force him to retreat before my priest died. my priest dying was a certainty in that match, great fun for him.

you are proving my point exactly. there is no real chess game: I press my 3 buttons and see if I win. same for my priest. same for the rogue and pal. same for playing against mage/rogue. same for ret/dk. same for almost any game where there are more than 2 DPS to focus down one of their opponents while CCing the others.

[Mysmere]

I respectfully disagree. Basically, there are two different directions which arena balance can take:
a) the chess game. both teams have to develop sophisticated tactics and counter-tactics and counter-counter-tactics.
b) LOLPWN. both teams rush into another, kick all their cooldowns and the team with better gear/class setup ends up winning after a very short time.

any intelligent person can guess that direction b) may be fun on the short term but ends up being very boring on the long term, since all you do is push the same 4-5 buttons every time and see what happens.
the problem about direction a) is that to be successful, you actually have to think and practice a lot.
since WoW is sliding to being more and more casual-friendly and since a lot of players do not regard arena as important compared to, say, pve raiding, blizz smartly reduces the chess game to a minimum, allowing the masses of mindless drones to get their casual fun while the actual depth of the (arena)game is reduced to a bare minimum.

edit: as an argument to prove my point, take a look at these statistics: http://www.arenajunkies.com/calculator/

what you can see is that in almost all realm pools, there are easily three times as many 2v2 teams as there are 3v3 and 10 times or even 100 times more 2v2s than 5v5s. if 5v5 and 3v3 was equally popular to 2v2, there should be only about 1.5 times as many 2v2s as 3v3s and only 2.5 times as many 2v2s as 5v5s. conclusion: for some reason, 2v2 is overproportionally popular.
the most obvious reason for this is that in 2s, you can only have 2 DPS classes at most, so the chance for a 10 second nukefest is the smallest. in fact, most successful 2v2 teams consist of healer/dd, playing (*gasp*) the chess game in rather long matches.

this one time i was a druid and i found a pillar.

much fun ensued

[gibborim]

I respectfully disagree. Basically, there are two different directions which arena balance can take:
a) the chess game. both teams have to develop sophisticated tactics and counter-tactics and counter-counter-tactics.
b) LOLPWN. both teams rush into another, kick all their cooldowns and the team with better gear/class setup ends up winning after a very short time.

any intelligent person can guess that direction b) may be fun on the short term but ends up being very boring on the long term, since all you do is push the same 4-5 buttons every time and see what happens.
the problem about direction a) is that to be successful, you actually have to think and practice a lot.
since WoW is sliding to being more and more casual-friendly and since a lot of players do not regard arena as important compared to, say, pve raiding, blizz smartly reduces the chess game to a minimum, allowing the masses of mindless drones to get their casual fun while the actual depth of the (arena)game is reduced to a bare minimum.

edit: as an argument to prove my point, take a look at these statistics: http://www.arenajunkies.com/calculator/

what you can see is that in almost all realm pools, there are easily three times as many 2v2 teams as there are 3v3 and 10 times or even 100 times more 2v2s than 5v5s. if 5v5 and 3v3 was equally popular to 2v2, there should be only about 1.5 times as many 2v2s as 3v3s and only 2.5 times as many 2v2s as 5v5s. conclusion: for some reason, 2v2 is overproportionally popular.
the most obvious reason for this is that in 2s, you can only have 2 DPS classes at most, so the chance for a 10 second nukefest is the smallest. in fact, most successful 2v2 teams consist of healer/dd, playing (*gasp*) the chess game in rather long matches.

Nobody cares about arena anymore because regular content is too easy. You also no longer get pvp gear that is competetive raiding gear for free.

[nwo]

Nobody cares about arena anymore because regular content is too easy. You also no longer get pvp gear that is competetive raiding gear for free.

Ulduar is not too easy, naxx was too easy. You can get PVP gear (particularly the weapons) that are competitive to raiding gear and they really don't take too much time or effort to attain, all it takes is a little bit of skill and communication. If you ask me, I sure as hell am glad that people can no longer can competitive PVP gear for PVE content. I was very upset to see everyone walking around in s1 and s2 gear back in BC which they earned by having AFK AV bots. I'm glad that it actually takes some skill to get decent PVP gear now and most of it does not belong in PVE.

Getting back on topic and the original post, I would definitely agree that arena should not be the way it is currently. I loved arena the way it was in BC. "Good" dps in PVP BC was well under 1k before 3.0 was released. Now, it has shot up to 2-3k and resilience/health increase did not go up enough to compensate for the huge dps increase. Maybe we need to give it a couple more seasons and we will start seeing some changes but so far I'm not seeing very many changes as opposed to the last season. Last season people were QQing because they had no resilience and were getting burst down, now people with 1k resilience can still get burst down by 2 dps. 1k resilience should allow you to be able to handle the damage intake from 2 dps without having a million mitigation talents.

[Gezza]

call me crazy but i actually like the way that blizz have taken arena. pretty much any dps + any healer is viable to at least the t2 furious weapon. at 70 for example if i saw a feral druid playing with a healer i would have lol'd irl and thanked him for the free points.

[Mysmere]

call me crazy but i actually like the way that blizz have taken arena. pretty much any dps + any healer is viable to at least the t2 furious weapon. at 70 for example if i saw a feral druid playing with a healer i would have lol'd irl and thanked him for the free points.

this

[tjanson]

Uh, wasn't rogue/rogue one of the top teams in S3 and S4? It hasn't changed as much as you think, imo. Also, chess is about mace stun proccing at the right time... amirite?

[nwo]

call me crazy but i actually like the way that blizz have taken arena. pretty much any dps + any healer is viable to at least the t2 furious weapon. at 70 for example if i saw a feral druid playing with a healer i would have lol'd irl and thanked him for the free points.

Feral druids were broken in BC, everyone knows that... Maim is a perfect example just to name one out of the bunch. Sure, lots more classes/specs might be PVP viable now, but the same old classes that were dominant in BC are still dominant in wrath.

[Mysmere]

Feral druids were broken in BC, everyone knows that... Maim is a perfect example just to name one out of the bunch. Sure, lots more classes/specs might be PVP viable now, but the same old classes that were dominant in BC are still dominant in wrath.

they were less broken than ret lol.

brutal versus blue geared bear, and the ret could still easily lose

[nwo]

brutal versus blue geared bear, and the ret could still easily lose

I remember pwning brutal MS warriors on my kara PVE geared, almost armor capped druid without popping any CDs and still sittin at 50% or more health at the end of the duel 8)