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  1. #21

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    Intel ftw as regen stat. For gems SP + int might be the better choice but it depends on your gear. Last night I saw Rawr suggesting me to take more +16 int gems.

  2. #22

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    This has gotten completely offtopic.

    The OP is asking whether to pick gear that has spirit, or mp5.

    Nothing about intellect at all, all gear that spirit and/or mp5 on it will also have intellect. Total nonissue.

  3. #23

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    Spirit, even for disc. When I go disc I have about 1500 intellect, which makes items with spirit give as much as or more mana regen when casting than items with MP5, in addition to giving more while not casting in for example Mimiron phase transitions.

    Use this formula to see how much mana regen the spirit on an item will give you at level 80. Use the intellect value you have when fully raid buffed, and bear in mind that the spirit of the item is increased by 6% from talent and 10% from BoK.

    Mana Regen = 5 * sqrt(Int) * Spirit * 0,005575 * 0,6
    And then just divide by 2 to see what it gives while casting.

    For holy it's a no-brainer. You might not have as much intellect, but you gain spellpower from spirit and Holy Concentration only works with spirit regen.

  4. #24

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    Based on the formula: MP5 = spirit * int ^0,5 * 0,0167

    Int: Spirit: MP5:
    1000 50 = 13.2
    1050 50 = 13.5
    1100 50 = 13.8
    1150 50 = 14.2
    1200 50 = 14.5
    1250 50 = 14.8
    1300 50 = 15.1
    1350 50 = 15.3
    1400 50 = 15.6
    1450 50 = 15.9
    1500 50 = 16.2

    This list shows how much MP5 you need to equal 50 spirit when you have a certain amount of int.

    If you're able to get out of the 5SR, the amount "MP5" needed is higher.

    With gems:

    Int: Spirit: MP5:
    1000 8 = 2.11
    1050 8 = 2.16
    1100 8 = 2.22
    1150 8 = 2.26
    1200 8 = 2.31
    1250 8 = 2.36
    1300 8 = 2.41
    1350 8 = 2.45
    1400 8 = 2.50
    1450 8 = 2.54
    1500 8 = 2.59

    Here the difference between 3MP5 beats 8 spirit in theory.

  5. #25
    Dreadlord
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    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    Quote Originally Posted by sweetened<3
    This has gotten completely offtopic.

    The OP is asking whether to pick gear that has spirit, or mp5.

    Nothing about intellect at all, all gear that spirit and/or mp5 on it will also have intellect. Total nonissue.
    Dude, relax. It's at least tangentially related; while it may not be particularly relevant when talking about gear, when gemming is involved, putting a blue/green/purple gem in a blue socket is not necessarily optimal. Depending on the socket bonus, you may end up with more regen from a +16 Int gem than from +8 Int / +8 Spirit and whatever the bonus is. Still, if you are looking at a blue socket, either for the socket bonus or for a meta-gem, and you want mana regen out of it rather than Spell Power, you're still generally better off with an Int/Spirit or an Int/MP5 than with a pure Spirit or MP5 gem.

  6. #26

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    Good numbers. But now, multiply that by 1.06 to add in the 6% spirit from the disc talent tree.
    And then multiply by 1.10 to multiply the spirit boost from Blessings of Kings.

    3 MP5 is still better than spirit, but not by 25%
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  7. #27

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    Since noone seems to have followed the link in my post I'll just repost a slight update of the original, in another attempt to get this discussion finished, or at least moving forward.

    Assumptions:

    - 2.5 spirit costs as many itemization points as 1 mp5.

    - The regen formula is sqrt(int)*spi*0.005575*0.6 mana per second.

    Ordinary spirit regen:

    2.5 spirit with Enlightenment and Kings becomes 2.9 spirit. This means that you get 2.9 spirit for every 1 mp5 on gear or enchants.

    Raidbuffed int Value of 2.9 spirit
    1100 1.61 regen = 0.80 mp5
    1300 1.75 regen = 0.87 mp5
    1500 1.88 regen = 0.94 mp5
    1700 2.00 regen = 1.00 mp5

    So, get 1700 int and you don't need to be outside the 5SR at all for spirit to beat mp5. With a somewhat more realistic 1500 int you only need to spend 6.4% of your time outside it to benefit more from spirit anyway.

    Special case - gems:

    The current gems value 3 mp5 as highly as 8 spirit. 1 mp5 is therefor worth 3.09 raidbuffed spirit in gem itemization points.

    Raidbuffed int Value of 3.09 spirit
    1100 1.71 regen = 0.86 mp5
    1300 1.86 regen = 0.93 mp5
    1500 2.00 regen = 1.00 mp5

    After 1500 int it's obviously stupid to gem mp5 (and it probably is at 1400 int too).

  8. #28

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    I tend to go with Mp5 simply since it seems to show on more items with +Crit and +Haste. But if the item is an upgrade I'll gladly take spirit and SP when I can get it. I'm rarely in trouble with mana during raids but spirit deffinately keeps you from drinking as much between pulls.

  9. #29
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    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    yea, blizzard put way too much mp5 on our tier gear and maybe 1-2 BiS items.
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  10. #30

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    Quote Originally Posted by Danner
    Good numbers. But now, multiply that by 1.06 to add in the 6% spirit from the disc talent tree.
    And then multiply by 1.10 to multiply the spirit boost from Blessings of Kings.

    3 MP5 is still better than spirit, but not by 25%
    Aye, my mistake . But I meant it when I said "in theory" :P. I'll always go for spirit opposed to MP5.

    Also holy has 5% spirit from the SoR talent.

    I remember choosing between 55 spirit boots or 20 MP5 boots in Naxx. I chose the 20 MP5 boots only because it had more crit. The regen is higher too when calculated, though it is very close!


  11. #31

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    I suppose that this is obvious to most of you, but when the 25% more mp5 from gear hits in patch 3.2 spirit will be left pretty far behind mp5 for disc. Things have been quite balanced between the two stats in raids, but you'd need unreachable int-levels for spirit to be competetive after that change.

    Spirit is starting to look like a real garbage stat that gives most casters some benefit, but where there in all cases are other stats that do the same thing better. I'm quite doubtful when it comes to spirit vs mp5 for holy too, but that case requires a little more research.

  12. #32
    Herald of the Titans iLive's Avatar
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    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    You shouldn't look at the stat, but look for what you get. If you have the chance between 20 spirit and 20 MP5, you obiuosly want to take the MP5 (ex.). If you have chance between 10 spirit and 1 MP5, you take spirit. I am not sure how much MP5 you get out of spirit (just Google it or something), and then you can begin choosing Though I would prefer spirit, if I gained the same amount of MP5 from spirit aswell as from MP5, since it gives more out of combat and Kings buffs it.

  13. #33

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    If you are comparing MP5 and Spirit on items directly, an addon like Ratings Buster will show you which of these will provide more benefit to you based on your talents.
    I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

  14. #34

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    I've done that math a few times before for disc. Before 3.2 an item that has 1 mp5 on it could have had 2.5 spirit instead. That relationship will probably change to 2 spirit per mp5. Of course, with Kings and talents those 2 spirit becomes worth 2.32 spirit, but that number is 2.9 spirit right now. It's quite simple math from there to the conclusion that the two stats are fairly balanced today with high int levels, but after the mp5 buff spirit will be left in the dust.

    Of course the choices aren't that simple in the real world (except for example with blue gems). If you need more mana regen than what only mp5 rings, mp5 neck etc can provide then you probably need some spirit anyway cause that's what is offered on cloth. Spirit is also on the tier sets, and you might have to take into account that cloth pieces without spirit tends to have less int on them than pieces wihtout, and int will still be good.

    Anyway, I think a good recommendation could be to get those mp5 rings etc and balancing it by actively seeking to pick up a little less spirit on other gear. Mp5 is simply that much better now.

  15. #35

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    Keep in mind that MP5 is affected by no talents, as opposed to spirit which is able to be buffed by various ones. Holy get more of a benefit, but as a Disc priest you will still get an extra 6% spirit from Enlightenment.
    I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

  16. #36

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    Quote Originally Posted by Abandon
    Keep in mind that MP5 is affected by no talents, as opposed to spirit which is able to be buffed by various ones. Holy get more of a benefit, but as a Disc priest you will still get an extra 6% spirit from Enlightenment.
    Even taking Kings and Enlightenment into account, Mp5 is approx. 10% more effective than spirit within the five second rule.

    Of course, this question only applies to blue sockets and if you want the socket bonus. Blizzard started to add Mp5 cloth in with Naxx, but seemed to forget about it for Ulduar.

  17. #37

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    Spirit is more a Holy stat, due to its conversion to healing but it's still useful for Disc due to it's stacking ability with buffs. As it stands I tend to enchant for spirit and gem to mp5 to balance it out, due to mp5 being more useful while casting and Disc tend to cast abit more than Holy to make up for the loss of HPS.

  18. #38

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritusVex
    For PvE: Gem INT. INT gives you crit, mana pool, Mp5, and greater returns on replenishment. Because you will hardly ever, if at all, break the 5second rule as Disco, Mp5 and Spirit are compared straight up.

    If a Spirit item will give you more while casting regen (after talents and kings) than an Mp5 item, the Spirit item is better. I suggest grabbing a mod that calculates such things automatically for you.

    That being said, your not a spirit based caster. In fact, you are now one of the only cloth wearing specs that does not have a spirit coefficient (not to be confused with a multiplier) beyond meditation. If a spirit item drops, and its a marginal upgrade from your Mp5 item, think about your fellow clothies before you hit the /roll,dkp, etc. button.
    Hooray for Necro'd topics you've already posted on!

  19. #39

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    Disc priest should stack up on int (15% bonuss)...

    the bigger the mana pool the more u get back during your PWS spam...
    Paranoid Tank: "Always be prepared for something to eat the healer..."

  20. #40

    Re: Disc ... mp5 or spirit??

    When I'm playing on my disc priest, I veeeeeery rarely stop casting for 5 seconds, so my opinion comes from the domain that you'll never be sitting around in combat waiting for your mana to go up.

    Since disc priests find spirit a stat for mana regen only, it really loses its luster compared to holy priests when you have a choice. The reason I say this is because the value of spirit depends on what buffs you have over MP5. For 25mans, you can safely calculate what is better for you based on having all raid buffs (many ppl have listed in previous posts how int and spirit affect your mana regen). If you start doing 10mans or start missing raid buffs that affect your int amount, the regen value of spirit will drop, but mp5 will not be affected. This is for PvE of course.

    For PvP, I'd have to say MP5 for some of the same reason as PvE: the regen value of MP5 won't be affected by the buffs you're running about with (or losing) in PvP, and I don't find many times that I'm out of the 5 second rule while escaping death (if I have that much time, I would probably have time to sit and drink anyways).
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