17/0/54 > 0/10/61?

[kaelleria]

All aspects of a boss encounter are important- The single target dps on razor is as important as the adds before she's grounded, mimiron p3 trash is as important as dpsing the ACU, killing scrapbots on XT is as important as killing XT himself.

The point that people are trying to make in this thread is that with a certain amount of gear the 17/0/54 build will always lose out to the 0/10/61 build given the same external variables. Just because you are topping the charts with 17/0/54 build right now, that doesn't really mean a whole lot. Does your guild suck? Do they put out 3k dps on razor?

[Shiira]

Stuff about why looking at dps while aoeing isn't useful.

Pretty much this.

Edit:

All aspects of a boss encounter are important- The single target dps on razor is as important as the adds before she's grounded, mimiron p3 trash is as important as dpsing the ACU, killing scrapbots on XT is as important as killing XT himself.

In terms of completing the encounter what you have said is correct, but you can't discuss class balance when half the dps are inflating their numbers with aoe and the other half aren't.

[Deleted]

Also patchwerk is not a good fight to compare dps on either because the fight is so short that it favours classes with powerful cooldowns.

To me it sounds like there are no good fights for checking dps for you!

[Shiira]

To me it sounds like there are no good fights for checking dps for you!

If patchwerk had four times as much health as he has now he would be a decent benchmark.

Right now most bosses have mechanics that cause some of the raid to lose dps, blizzard won't make many more bosses like this because they are extremely boring.

[kaelleria]

You investigate certain parts of fights.... Last part of Razor, Patch ect... for single target. Air phases of razor, trash, Sartharion for AoE.

I play a blood DK so my AoE is meh. On a fight like razor I still top the charts, followed closely by an arms warrior, but its really not hard to see who has done more single target dps. When my Heart Strike and melee are my top 2 for the encounter and the warrior's WW and Bladestorm are the top abilities and my damage on razor is significantly higher than his, its no secret who did more damage on the boss.

A smart raidleader will be able to figure this out even if the player doesn't.

[Tac]

Pretty much this.

Edit:
In terms of completing the encounter what you have said is correct, but you can't discuss class balance when half the dps are inflating their numbers with aoe and the other half aren't.

..You need to reread what i typed, slowly and carefully, and try mill over what i actually said before posting replies.

I note in my post that all aspects of aoe, and such should be taken into account. However, when doing DPS checks bosses that allow AoE inflation ARE NOT GOOD BOSSES TO CHECK ON.

Currently there are very few bosses which allow for a proper DPS check, blah blah blah that's why recount doesn't mean much, but the data it mines means a shitload. But you would know all this right? Because you actually bothered reading my post?

[Shiira]

I read your post, you appeared to be saying was that while aoe is a non trivial aspect of boss encounters it isn't useful to use data from bosses where some classes can inflate their damage with aoe and others can't to discuss class balance, which I certainly agree with, am I wrong?

[MooDK]

Change to 12-0-59. It's better then 17-0-54 as of patch 3.1.. which came out quite a while ago now.

[Garrard]

..You need to reread what i typed, slowly and carefully, and try mill over what i actually said before posting replies.

I note in my post that all aspects of aoe, and such should be taken into account. However, when doing DPS checks bosses that allow AoE inflation ARE NOT GOOD BOSSES TO CHECK ON.

Currently there are very few bosses which allow for a proper DPS check, blah blah blah that's why recount doesn't mean much, but the data it mines means a shitload. But you would know all this right? Because you actually bothered reading my post?

I'd agree with the post above, but I'm more into the practical than the "abstract." For example, what kind of FPS is your pc putting out at max settings for Crysis at X by X resolution as opposed to how many bungholio marks are you getting in X benchmarking program. There are uses for both, I just prefer the prior because it's more practical. As has been stated, there are very few boring tank and spank fights that work as good benchmarks for dps.. so as a benchmark for the game itself, it seems a little weak. Just my perspective. I understand the uses of both, though.

[Xtacle]

Imp UH pres is not trash, but for my i just dont take it, cause i know when to move, but for others, moving may be difficult, not calling you dumb, but some people just have trouble with it.

and i have always gone the 17/0/54 build, i know most people say this with their spec, even if it is trashy, and it might just be my server is full of scrubby DKs, but i have not been beaten ever by another DK on my realm in dps for boss fights, even if they have better gear than me.

i have gone the 0/10/61 build, and yes i know i should do it with ulduar gear, but i went ahead and did with all the BiS or close up there gear. and i was yeilding lower DPS than the 17/0/54 build i had

[mytrist]

I was just wondering if anyone has tried this frost spec. 17/51/3
I did 4.1k dps with this spec. I know im going to get laughed at
but it works out good.

the rotation is
IT, PS, Ob, BSx2, FSx2, Obx2, HB, FS dumb
rinse and repeat.. the numbers were good or atleast i though they were.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-t...ris&gn=Ancient

[Xtacle]

well that is for a dif topic, but yeah that is the correct frost DPS spec, besides the IT spam one. but dont keep your set rotation, when you get the procs use them instantly, but use the Rime proc when you have everything else on CD.

[mytrist]

This spec requires a lot of expertise which there is very little of in ulduar for plate dps. Its all
APr gear. Makes me want to go back to Blood spec.

[Shiira]

I was just wondering if anyone has tried this frost spec. 17/51/3
I did 4.1k dps with this spec. I know im going to get laughed at
but it works out good.

the rotation is
IT, PS, Ob, BSx2, FSx2, Obx2, HB, FS dumb
rinse and repeat.. the numbers were good or atleast i though they were.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-t...ris&gn=Ancient

I use this spec and consistently place in the top five in 25 man ulduar. My rotation is different though.

I use howling blast first, obliterate until I run out of runes, blood strike if runes are up and then dump rp with frost strike.

I'm using the t7 4pc because it's pretty great with this spec, as is the frost strike sigil.

I would definitely reccomend this spec as one of the better performing ones, especially on fights where you need to change targets often. It doesn't really have any powerful cooldowns but that's about its only weakness.

Edit: I use the glyph of howling blast to get frost fever up and ignore blood plague.

[Claym]

Imp UH pres is not trash, but for my i just dont take it, cause i know when to move, but for others, moving may be difficult, not calling you dumb, but some people just have trouble with it.

It's not a matter of knowing when to move. Imp UH gets even BETTER when you know when to move. I don't think you "get" this talent. It's a matter of staying on the target longer, not compensating for slow reaction times.

I was just wondering if anyone has tried this frost spec. 17/51/3
I did 4.1k dps with this spec. I know im going to get laughed at
but it works out good.

the rotation is
IT, PS, Ob, BSx2, FSx2, Obx2, HB, FS dumb
rinse and repeat.. the numbers were good or atleast i though they were.

I'm laughing not at your spec, because I love that spec, but because your rotation for it is REALLY bad and you could probably be pulling out 5k DPS if you went for the single disease HB, Oblit, FS spam.

HB -> Oblit -> BS -> BS -> FS
Oblit -> Oblit -> Oblit

If FF is about to run out, replace a Oblit with HB.

If you get a KM proc, Frost Strike immediately.

If you get a Rime proc, DO NOT USE IT IMMEDIATELY. Wait until FF has < 5 seconds left, or until you have no runes for oblits AND no RP for FS.

I prefer weaving FS and Oblit in the last part of the rotation to avoid RP overflow.

Why is this better? It's really simple. You don't have epidemic and you're wasting part of your frost fever (which all of your talents work off of) to hit with Plague Strike that, even with blood plague factored in for damage calculations and the dot, does less damage than the extra oblit you'd get off. Using HB to refresh FF flows naturally, and with the Rime procs and the number of opportunities in your rotation to replace something for HB, you'll never have FF drop.

[mytrist]

I have no trouble doing 4k dps.
if my rotation is REALLY BAD as you say
then how am I doing 4k dps? im just wondering
im not flaming anyone or saying im the best
but the rotation works out good for me. Im not trying
to pick a fight with you either. Just curious.

[ralusek]

You can't understand that the only scaling damage talent you've taken in blood is based upon your armor which varies, at most, by 200 between tier levels on DPS gear (netting you 5 AP per piece). While the stat levels go up much more quickly (57 STR -> 74 STR [34AP]) would increase your damage more, and would thus be better amplified by a talent that increases your damage, you don't see that? Really? You don't think that increasing the damage bonus of 34 AP can outpace the 5AP?

there they go again with the bladed armor theorycrafting. that is the exact reason why i made this thread.
THE ONLY SCALING TALENT I'VE TAKEN IN BLOOD IS BASED UPON ARMOR??? bullshit. yes, this talent scales horribly within a level, as armor increases at trivial rates...however i feel like you have not looked at anything else in the spec?

1. Two handed weapon specialization. 4% weapon damage...that scales beautifully.
2. Dark conviction. 5% crit? that scales unbelievably, especially considering almost all DK's stack nothing but STR. the more STR you have, the more value is given to that crit. it will double the damage of those attacks...and wait for it...give an extra 30% crit modifier from vicious strikes.

those are the two biggies in the blood tree...the bonuses are bladed armor (a nice chunk of AP). subversion...again, scales. albeit on a trivial ability. it scales.
and butchery. whatever, doesn't hurt.

now consider 10/61. what scales here, son? black ice. very nice talent. icy touch (terrible). runic power master (totally unecessary)

if you want to argue that 10% shadow damage > 4% weapon damage, 5% crit, and bladed armor, that's the argument here. not how bladed armor doesn't scale well vs. black ice (which is all i've heard repeatedly). bladed armor is just a bonus to the additional scaling talents

[Floreon]

there they go again with the bladed armor theorycrafting. that is the exact reason why i made this thread.
THE ONLY SCALING TALENT I'VE TAKEN IN BLOOD IS BASED UPON ARMOR??? bullshit. yes, this talent scales horribly within a level, as armor increases at trivial rates...however i feel like you have not looked at anything else in the spec?

1. Two handed weapon specialization. 4% weapon damage...that scales beautifully.
2. Dark conviction. 5% crit? that scales unbelievably, especially considering almost all DK's stack nothing but STR. the more STR you have, the more value is given to that crit. it will double the damage of those attacks...and wait for it...give an extra 30% crit modifier from vicious strikes.

those are the two biggies in the blood tree...the bonuses are bladed armor (a nice chunk of AP). subversion...again, scales. albeit on a trivial ability. it scales.
and butchery. whatever, doesn't hurt.

now consider 10/61. what scales here, son? black ice. very nice talent. icy touch (terrible). runic power master (totally unecessary)

if you want to argue that 10% shadow damage > 4% weapon damage, 5% crit, and bladed armor, that's the argument here. not how bladed armor doesn't scale well vs. black ice (which is all i've heard repeatedly). bladed armor is just a bonus to the additional scaling talents

Except it's just 10% shadow damage v 4% weapon damage and bladed armor, because speccing Dark Conviction as Unholy makes you stupid and terrible.

[ralusek]

Except it's just 10% shadow damage v 4% weapon damage and bladed armor, because speccing Dark Conviction as Unholy makes you stupid and terrible.

awesome argument. and like i said before, the alternatives in unholy are very very lackluster. ghoul frenzy, necrosis, BCB? lolwut. dark conviction = huge bonus to all your attacks and abilities minus disease/UB. and an even greater boost through vicious strikes to your most damaging ability...being scourge strike

[Floreon]

awesome argument. and like i said before, the alternatives in unholy are very very lackluster. ghoul frenzy, necrosis, BCB? lolwut. dark conviction = huge bonus to all your attacks and abilities minus disease/UB. and an even greater boost through vicious strikes to your most damaging ability...being scourge strike

Show me your build then, link a calculator so I can tell you where the points should be and why it's stupid to pick it up.