1. #1

    The Holy Tree(priest)

    I've seen many changes going in all our tree's, i've been playing for 4 years now as a holy/discipline/shadow priest (mainly holy). Most of the changes i liked and agree'd with. One of the changes i extremely liked and enjoyed was the changes in the discipline tree - the amount of points for each talents, the additional pve talents that can be usefull for pvp as well. I was waiting to see these changes in the holy tree, but they have never arrived, adding additional talents for the pvp aspect of the tree was nice. But i had in mind more changes, not so original but mainly refering to the amount of points each talent costed, this to allow more flexability in talent choises - just like the discipline tree has.

    So the few idea's i had:

    *Holy Specialization - this talent gives us 5% holy crit for 5 points. I think it would be nicer if the amount of points regarding this talent would be reduced. This will allow alot more choise in our tree.

    *Holy reach and healing prayers should be combined into one talent. A new talent in the position of healing prayer should be added: a talent that adds a pvp utility or a holy dps utility. This talent should be skipable by raiders and desired for a fun/pvp spec. Increasing the critical bonus of our holy offensive spells, or something similar to blessed ressiliance - perhaps reducing the chance you'll be hit by melee attacks by Xx%. The holy tree does lack another survival/pvp talent - I enjoy pvping as holy but i feel inferior to the amazing mitigation talents and abilities discipline has, i feel like an additional talent can be added.

    *Improved healing - This was a great talent in vanilla, and now the value of it drops - since we don't use lesser heal or heal anymore, and we don't have penance as holy, perhaps another healing spell should be added to it, my thoughts tend more towards CoH or Renew.

    *Spiritual Guidance which allows benifit of 25% of our spirit into spellpower is atm 5 points, same with Spiritual healing and Empowered healing, i think one of them could be reduced to 3 points. I tend to see Spiritual guidance - and expected it to become a talent that requires 3 points in order to get the 25%, i think Empowered healing could also be reduced to 3 points instead of 5.

    *Lightwell - There is alot to add about this one, but i think a nice change would be: make it targetable only by the priest that casted it, or untargetable again - leave it in a way you can't spam click it (if you have a lightwell buff you can't gain a new one untill it faded). Dpser and Tank changing their targets when they click it is not something so great - even if they can see how many charges left: why would they care - you can't spam click it anymore and that is whats important.

    I think these small changes in the amount points per each talent can allow most priests to spec in a way they enjoy to play, Some will still prefer to invest only in raiding talents, some will prefer only the pvp talents. But for those who want to have abit of both - atm always need to skip some talent or another that they always wish they could have. Yes we do have duel spec, at the same time i see other healing tree's being alot more easier to chose (not only the discipline tree, but also other healers). I don't find this in the holy tree at all. If i will run down the tree threw the pve talents - i wouldn't have enough points to invest in all of them, if i run threw the pvp talents i would have to pick up pve talents in order to get them. I think a small change in afew talents, reducing the amount of points per talent - such was made to the discipline tree afew patchs ago - is something nessecary to the holy tree as well. I don't see why it wasn't made till now. Why is our talent choises always one against the other, and not combined together. After all, the first thing that was mentioned after the discipline tree was fixed, and some talents that were 5/5 were reduced to 3/3 was that they made it easier to chose the spec and the talents, why can't holy enjoy this?

  2. #2
    Fluffy Kitten llDemonll's Avatar
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    Re: The Holy Tree(priest)


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  3. #3

    Re: The Holy Tree(priest)

    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll
    i wouldn't call these the best specs, this is your choise. I am refering to how you do get pvp and pve combined talents as discipline while picking all raiding talents, or the oposite. And as holy you don't have this choise: where's the blessed ressiliance?

    If you play casual you would want a spec that serves you for all, like the discipline tree offers. So all casual priests go discipline?

    this is just a state of opinion, talent discusion thread take it else where - i didn't ask how to spec, i offered the alternative i think is desired by priests that may or may not read these forums. I have posted a similar thread on the Beta discusions on WoW official forums, back before wotlk came out - and most of the replies agree'd with me, the thread was talking about the discipline talents back then and most changes were done (although no blue responded).

    in other word: I didn't ask for you to link me the copy paste talent calculater you copied from EJ's and these forums. I opened a discussion if anyone would feel better if afew talents that cost 5 points would reduce to 3, in order to have more freedom in chosing the talents that will combine your spec.

  4. #4

    Re: The Holy Tree(priest)

    Good post, Nikkita!

    I think that the holy tree is a bit too much riddled with +X% healing talents. Sure, they are nice, but they're pretty much the opposite of fun, as you absolutely have to pick them and skip the fun parts.

    I really enjoy the talent of Holy Reach, for instance. Sure, it's giving me almost nothing back in terms of power, but I kinda like it as it allows me to stand back a bit more. Guildies have been questioning me for selecting it, but it's one of the fun talents we have. I really enjoy Body and Soul for the same reason. Both are relatively underpowered talents with a lot of feeling of "am I glad I selected this one" when you actually use them.

    On the opposite scale, we have Spiritual Healing. Boooring. But overpowered, and largely responsible for compensating that holypriests don't stack much spellpower. You have to pick it, or you're just silly. But I can't say it gives me anything.

    I also liked the thing about disc talents being reduced in cost. More 3 pt talents, less mandatory 5 pt talents. When you HAVE to pick Holy Specialization, Divine Fury, Spiritual Guidance, Spiritual Healing, Divine Providence and possibly Empowered Healing, that's 30 talent points locked for every holypriest build. 30 talent points not really offering anything as they're utterly mandatory, and thus only working as a talent tax.

    Make all or most of those 3 pt talents instead, and offer us relatively useless yet interesting talents like holy reach to fill the gaps, and suddenly there s a choice. I think that would go a long way towards making holy a more fun tree.
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  5. #5

    Re: The Holy Tree(priest)

    Quote Originally Posted by Danner
    When you HAVE to pick Holy Specialization, Divine Fury, Spiritual Guidance, Spiritual Healing, Divine Providence and possibly Empowered Healing, that's 30 talent points locked for every holypriest build. 30 talent points not really offering anything as they're utterly mandatory, and thus only working as a talent tax.
    As a raid/instance healer Divine fury is near worthless, GHeal is pretty much unusable for reactive healing anymore, and with serendipity divine fury ends up giving you significantly less than .5 off the cast. Also it's been theorycrafted that point for point Blessed Resilience is > Empowered Healing unless you're casting upwards of 40% flash/greater heal.

  6. #6
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    Re: The Holy Tree(priest)

    Quote Originally Posted by nikkita
    i wouldn't call these the best specs, this is your choise. I am refering to how you do get pvp and pve combined talents as discipline while picking all raiding talents, or the oposite. And as holy you don't have this choise: where's the blessed ressiliance?
    If you really want to pve and pvp with the same holy spec I'd go for this:
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...0&version=9947
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  7. #7

    Re: The Holy Tree(priest)

    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll
    srsly, the trees are fine atm

    disc: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbuhhVRIsffRtfxzc
    Improved renew in a disc template ?
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  8. #8
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    Re: The Holy Tree(priest)

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixia
    Improved renew in a disc template ?
    Well divine fury is useless anyway, so it's either 6% less spelldamage taken (which is nice in Ulduar) or 15% more heal from renew. It's a matter of playstyle, but if I'm tankhealing as disc I keep renew up on him all the time usually. It won't do awesome healing, but every bit helps.
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  9. #9

    Re: The Holy Tree(priest)

    I like some of your thoughts, esp about reducing the # of points required for crit. Disc priests (my main spec, pvp) had a number of talents reduced to just 3 pts instead of 5 and it was awesome. Having more of the same for Holy would be very nice.

    For LOLwell, it's actually a very nice talent but it requires some savvy and a competent group to make use of it properly. It's fine as it is, although i've never chosen to take it.

    Personally I do not like Holy as it is now but that's mainly b/c before I was more of a blend before 3.1 (40 in holy, 31 in disc) for maximum spellpower and int. With the changes made, this spec doesn't come together quite as well as it did before. I don't blame blizz, it was just an unintended consequence of well-meaning changes. However, reducing the talent points required for certain things would help a ton.

  10. #10

    Re: The Holy Tree(priest)

    Some of those idea's are pretty cool, or are going in the right direction at least. Danner is right, it feels like we're just picking up a bunch of "+%" talents beefing up our numbers which make them mandatory, which then makes it tougher to decide what "fun talents" to take.

    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll
    yes.  if you take divine fury or spell dmg decrease over this you are doinitrong
    I agree with this but my Disc build happens to be the build I do dailies and other things besides raid heal with so Divine Fury is good for that. Since Renew really isn't something a Disc priest casts enough I wouldn't really call it "doinitrong" and say it's just a different choice for a different style. The choices aren't really stellar so it's not a big deal either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by nikkita
    i wouldn't call these the best specs, this is your choise. I am refering to how you do get pvp and pve combined talents as discipline while picking all raiding talents, or the oposite. And as holy you don't have this choise: where's the blessed ressiliance?
    I only understood your first sentence here lol, sorry. Those 2 specs are pretty much the best, if not close with minor differences...there's a few small changes I would personally make of course. Not many ways to go with Disc so that's right on, and this Holy spec is all about raid healing, so I agree that I would get Blessed Resilience, but you would be surprised (or not?) by how good Body and Soul is in Ulduar, if that's what you meant by PVP and PVE "combined talent".

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  11. #11

    Re: The Holy Tree(priest)

    i don't use Renew at all when i'm disc.

    and since i don't switch spec for dailies or farm, Divine Fury is better than Empowered Renew.

    But yeah you're right, renew is the only good talent in a "full pve tree".
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  12. #12

    Re: The Holy Tree(priest)

    To phoenixia, llDemonll, AetherMcLoud:

    Thanks for your comments, but they are mainly spam. The same post you Quoted AetherMcLoud mentions:

    Quote Originally Posted by nikkita
    in other word: I didn't ask for you to link me the copy paste talent calculater you copied from EJ's and these forums. I opened a discussion if anyone would feel better if afew talents that cost 5 points would reduce to 3, in order to have more freedom in chosing the talents that will combine your spec.
    I know its very hard to understand: but please stop linking stupid talent calculator. My discussion WAS NOT HOW TO SPEC OR WHICH TALENTS. So if you don't have anything to say about the idea of CUTING TALENT POINTS FROM 5 to 3 POINTS don't post it here. there is a discussion theard about talents take that arguement there.

    It was on the other hand on what Danner Mentioned. Thank you for your comments about it, i already posted the same post in WoW forums but was ignored. So i guess most don't think it will add more fun to the game.

  13. #13
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    Re: The Holy Tree(priest)

    I like a lot of your ideas, and some are similar to the ones I've had. I'll give some of my thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by nikkita
    *Holy Specialization - this talent gives us 5% holy crit for 5 points. I think it would be nicer if the amount of points regarding this talent would be reduced. This will allow alot more choise in our tree.
    I don't think this is a great place to cut points because, as I understand, the earlier talents are supposed to be a little underwhelming and, really, losing a few points this early, with so many lackluster talents early in the tree, you don't have a lot of other options. OTOH, it would be nice to be able to pick up Healing Focus again.

    *Holy reach and healing prayers should be combined into one talent. A new talent in the position of healing prayer should be added: a talent that adds a pvp utility or a holy dps utility. This talent should be skipable by raiders and desired for a fun/pvp spec. Increasing the critical bonus of our holy offensive spells, or something similar to blessed ressiliance - perhaps reducing the chance you'll be hit by melee attacks by Xx%. The holy tree does lack another survival/pvp talent - I enjoy pvping as holy but i feel inferior to the amazing mitigation talents and abilities discipline has, i feel like an additional talent can be added.
    That sounds a little OP to me, to get both of those things for only two points. If they were combined, you'd probably have to look at making it a 3 point talent or something. I do like the Holy DPS talent idea, you could easily add a 2 point talent to increase Crit damage, although I really think rolling it into Searing Light is probably the better idea.

    *Improved healing - This was a great talent in vanilla, and now the value of it drops - since we don't use lesser heal or heal anymore, and we don't have penance as holy, perhaps another healing spell should be added to it, my thoughts tend more towards CoH or Renew.
    Yes, this talent is very outdated, since it only affects Greater Heal and I could definitely see adding at least renew to it. They could also rolling Healing Prayers into it and perhaps make it a 5 point talent to compensate.

    *Spiritual Guidance which allows benifit of 25% of our spirit into spellpower is atm 5 points, same with Spiritual healing and Empowered healing, i think one of them could be reduced to 3 points. I tend to see Spiritual guidance - and expected it to become a talent that requires 3 points in order to get the 25%, i think Empowered healing could also be reduced to 3 points instead of 5.
    This is definitely a talent that I think needs some reworking. As others have said, it is absolutely mandatory for Holy and it's awfully expensive too. I had also thought that making it a 3 point talent instead of 5 would be a good way to keep it mandatory and not feel so expensive. I might even roll it up to 30% too (though that would probably need some compensation elsewhere, like taking the 5% boost from SoR).

    *Lightwell - There is alot to add about this one, but i think a nice change would be: make it targetable only by the priest that casted it, or untargetable again - leave it in a way you can't spam click it (if you have a lightwell buff you can't gain a new one untill it faded). Dpser and Tank changing their targets when they click it is not something so great - even if they can see how many charges left: why would they care - you can't spam click it anymore and that is whats important.
    IMO, this talent should just be made baseline and/or completely reworked. The largest problem with this talent isn't that it's inherently bad, it's just that it's very difficult to make useful. One way to fix it is to just make it baseline and prevent the spam-clicking, so that even if it's used poorly, you didn't waste a talent point in it. I've also seen a suggestion on here somewhere about making it so it would throw a heal or HoT on someone who got below a certain percentage with some sort of cooldown.



  14. #14

    Re: The Holy Tree(priest)

    If they change these talents to 3 points instead of 5 they will likely nerf us in other ways. Although it's annoying to not be able to pick up everything I want I do like the amount of choices we can make in the Holy tree. We can fine tune our talents to our playstyle.

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