Frost Dps

[Toysuprapr]

i just started playing my DK since 3.0 and was wondering does it make sense to apply PS in my rotation to get more dps out of Obliteration?

[Antiqueth]

i just started playing my DK since 3.0 and was wondering does it make sense to apply PS in my rotation to get more dps out of Obliteration?

/facepalm
/thread

[Screwtape]

So apparently there's a rotation that uses glyph of howling blast and doesn't use Plague strike. It doesn't seem like that was intended and so was nerfed (so I've heard). You can read about it on EJ.

[kriS411]

There is not only a HB Rotaiton w/o PS...

Do how you like to play most, IT PS, IT Spam, HB Rotations are all nearly the same DPS wise.
The IT Spam rotation is only recommended if you have the FS sigil.

Btw. nice that you play DK since 3.0, wonder if someone here played one earlier...

[drkslayer]

i personally open with IT-PS-Pest to get diseases going. Once I start spamming OB & FS I use HB in the rotation when a rune is available - usually use it only once, maximum twice, before mobs are dead ;D
i tend to preceded it with deathchill to get the crit on HB - 6.5 to 7.5k crit on 3 or more mobs is lovely to look at 8)

[Elektrik]

There are 3 separate rotations that frost DKs are using these days. Double disease is probably the least played, and probably the lowest DPS.

I use the HB glyph and run a priority system consisting of FF > FS > OB > BS for single target. If FF is going to fall off before my next rune refresh, I HB.

Basically, I don't use PS and I have great results...but I have the sigil.

[MooDK]

If you're going with both diseases, then it's prefered to use Unholy Presence, due to the large amount of GCDs you have to fill within the 10 second rotation of runes.

If you pull this off well, then you'll do really good dps.

[kriS411]

For the IT Spam Rota you go UP as well...

The HB Rotation is the only one in BP and even here you can benifit from UP.

[DarkAxius]

This is a lie, frost presence benefits more frost blood presence than unholy presence even with dual diseases.

Er, what?

I think you're saying Frost DPS benefits more from Blood Presence.
Personally, I've had fantastic results with UH Presence and the ITx6 spec for DPS. Exceptionally flexible and works great in PvP too.

It's down to personal preference. If you like to do 15% more damage, use Blood, but 15% of, say, 7000 damage is not as good as a full extra Frost Strike crit. You have to be able to manage your GCD's well to pull off good DPS though.

[Modez]

1) Blizz said they nerfed the 7.5 bonus. They did somewhat, but not noticeable really.

2) I use a FS / HB / OB / BS setup. Glyphs of HB, FS and OB.

All you do is open with HB -> OB -> BSx2 -> FS -> Summon Ghoul. After that, you reapply FF with HB as needed, unless you have the oppurtunity for some AoE (Guardian swarm, Detonators, etc) very soon. If this is the case go ahead and FS a time or two more.

You really don't need Runic Power Mastery with this spec, as you should almost (if not always) FS every time you can. This works well if you ahve the sigil from X-T.

This is a pretty bad parse (good for dmg out, bad for wipes due to healing inconsistencies). We had new healers in the raid, so we had some wipes - and Freya was with Guardians up. I was dead for all of XT as I got lightwell immediately before tantrum with no heals.

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/log/748496

Alleria - Antimortem

EDIT: This is done in blood presence.

[Elektrik]

Unless you are using 4p t7 and have the IT glyph blood presence is better than unholy presence.

QFT

And if you're still using 4p t7, you're gimping yourself. This wasn't true before the nerf, but it is now.

[Modez]

Unless you are using 4p t7 and have the IT glyph blood presence is better than unholy presence.

4pc t7/7.5 doesn't help ITx6. Just the glyph does.

And if you're still using 4p t7, you're gimping yourself. This wasn't true before the nerf, but it is now.

This is what everyone says, but if you go on a target dummy the dps dropped by about 50 total since you have to add in 1 more blood strike every now and then. Just because everyone predicted doom and gloom doesn't mean the end result was that way.

[Elektrik]

What? It's not like it's some guessing game. RP gain is very straightforward, and a decrease in RP gain decreases your FS damage.

Trust me. I believe your experiences on the dummy, but I'll take my raid buffed experiences with more value. I do a LOT more damage wearing 4p t8 than I did wearing 4p t7. The stats I've gained far outweigh the few extra frost strikes I'd get per boss.

ps - I realize 4p t8 is pretty worthless for frost, especially using single disease. I didn't mean to say that I do more damage b/c of the set bonus...just because of the stats on the gear.

[DarkAxius]

I dunno, 4t8 looks alrightish for frost, especially with the Frost Strike Sigil - two of your hard hitting abilities recieve a damage buff that way, however insignificant that is. Tho the 4t8 bonus looks more like the Ob sigil moved to a bonus than anything else. Still, every little helps.

[Elektrik]

Well, the 4p t8 bonus does help...it's not like it's completely worthless, but it's such a small damage increase especially considering we only run with 1 disease on the target.

Even with 4p t8 I'm generally around 31% frost strike, 22% obliterate.

[Modez]

What? It's not like it's some guessing game. RP gain is very straightforward, and a decrease in RP gain decreases your FS damage.

Trust me. I believe your experiences on the dummy, but I'll take my raid buffed experiences with more value. I do a LOT more damage wearing 4p t8 than I did wearing 4p t7. The stats I've gained far outweigh the few extra frost strikes I'd get per boss.

ps - I realize 4p t8 is pretty worthless for frost, especially using single disease. I didn't mean to say that I do more damage b/c of the set bonus...just because of the stats on the gear.

What I was replying to in my post was what the other DK said - Synthets (sp). They said that ITx6 worked well if you have 4pc T7 or the IT glyph. ITx6 doesn't get any effect from T7, but ofc it does from the glyph. RP is a cut and dry mechanic, and I am unsure why they included the T7 portion as beneficial when you only OB once or twice per 'rotation' in the ITx6 setup.

I am not saying that my DPS on a dummy is ~50 lower. In my parse that I linked you can see the results in a raid, not a dummy. People do typically like to post dummy dmg, which for this spec at least, is historically inaccurate. That I will agree with you on.

The main problem with T8 for frost, for either spec, is jsut the minimal increase to dmg. The best results I ahve seen point to about a 4% at most DPS increase, and I believe that was for blood (which gets a little more use due to disease increasing dmg ability spams). I will agree that the 2pc is good for frost, but unless you are using a dual disease rotation the value cut by half easily for frost, especially when a large portion of time is spent casting IT/FS with the 'machine gun' spec/rotation.

One of the other things that still leaves frost with quite a draw, is simply the gear flexibility. Since the bonus isn't that hot for it, you have more options for slots which include crit over the tier items.

[Elektrik]

I must have missed the parse, sorry.

And you're right about the flexability thing. I'm not using the 4p t8 for the bonus, I'm using it because it's the best gear I have atm. Actually, BiS frost sets include the 4 pieces of t8 that I'm wearing, and the hard mode helm...again, not for the bonus, but for the pure stats.

Regarding unholy presence, yeah ITx6 uses it for sure and a lot of other people swear by it for all frost specs. I just don't have the same results when using UP over BP.

[Modez]

I am curious as to why then, if you say that you are not wearing 4pc for the bonus, why it is you continue to do so?

Now I'm not attempting to pick on you, and I am going to assume you are basing such on gear rankings via spreadsheets, EJ, your testing or some other concrete source.

The question I pose is this:

If you are electing to do a ITx6 spam, then you will still want the t8 2pc for sure. If you are doing the ITx6 spam, you are getting a very very minimal increase from the T8 4pc bonus (using OB/BS in a very low % of total attacks). Why not opt for other items (after the 2pc again) which allow for over 9% hit (pushing to [Spell Hit Cap - raid % hit buffs = target mark]) and gaining expertise without gemming (not saying you are gemming for it, I haven't perused your gear). Then (if you took it) you can drop virulence ion favor of 3% more crit in your talents, as I believe we can agree crit is a good stat for frost, above other DK specs.

I read the sites where people crunch numbers, but sometimes I think people clamp up on other ideas and mark something as 'the right way to do it' as an accepted norm a little to fast. I do agree that math is math and numbers do not lie.

This is my main argument for the fact that T7.5 wasn't nerfed (at least in my raiding millage) as hard as many people are 'sure' it was. You can see in the parse that I am wailing away over a blood DK who is stacking armor pen with the T8 bonus, doing the same rotation and spec (with a couple more BS's in due to the slightly lowered RP generation from the t7 nerf - but which the damage lost is being offset by having some armor pen) as I did before.

[Toysuprapr]

i am using glyph of disease to a). Spread diseases around instead of spam IT, PS and b) to get more Death Runes. I cant see how Glyph of HB benefits me on single targets and also i get off more obliterations and less BS. i'm Frost drm spec. Is this a effective way for bigger dps numbers and if not, what should i change?

[Elektrik]

I've never even tried the ITx6 rotation. Not quite sure where you're going with that.

I am curious as to why then, if you say that you are not wearing 4pc for the bonus, why it is you continue to do so?

I already mentioned that it's the best set of gear that I have currently. Plus, I do get some slight benefit out of it because after frost strikes, obliterate is the attack that I cast most often. Maybe you should take a look at my gear before you start talking about my hit and expertise. If anything, I'd like to drop some of both, let alone switch to non-set pieces to pick it up.

I believe we can agree crit is a good stat for frost, above other DK specs.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. Obliterate crits over 60% of the time, as does frost strike. Frost suffers VERY heavily from DR on crit. I'd rather have crit over excess expertise or hit, but that's it.