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  1. #1

    Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    With WotLK, a few old friends and I tried something new. We had been raiding since release, but never too hardcore and - most of the time - weren't challenged by content while being frustrated by those who were.

    So we tried to build up a 10 man hardmode raid group, raiding just twice a week. And looked for players to do so.

    This was horrible in Naxxramas to begin with. Maybe our server is filled with terribads, but we never had the lineup we wished we had. There was literally noone interested in this raiding concept. Of the few people who did apply, only 1 or 2 actually were decent players. Lack of players soon began to impact raid filling, and even the seasoned people lost motivation. So before 3.0 hard mode rewards were removed, we sat at 15/17 achievements, missing only Sarth3D10 and Malygos6Min.

    At the same time, we had to sit there and watch members of the more hardcore 25man raiding guilds of our server sporting "our drake" in Dalaran - which they mainly aquired by doing the achievements in between their "big" raids. Where we were struggling to find decent players AND the right classes and specs in the first place, they could just pick whoever the wanted, geared out in 213/226 and available all day long.

    Well. 3.1 came and went, Blizzard admitted that Sarth3D10 tuning was a mistake and Ulduar promised new chances. And where are we standing?

    The number of applications we have received since Ulduar is abysmal. I can probably count them with the fingers of one hand. Further, since we were interested in recruiting mature players, these do encounter RL issues once in a while which doesn't make forming a good lineup easier. For example - we only have one shaman. Say goodbye to hard mode attempts requiring speed whenever he's not there. All we'd need is a handful of exceptional players to complement the handful we already have - but they're nowhere to be found.

    And all of this while we're again beginning to watch the hardcore 25man raiding guilds casually farming "our" achievements in between their raids again ... with whatever lineup they wish to use, all geared in 226/232.

    Maybe the main issue is our server. Maybe the easy entry level raids in WotLK are to blame. We have been recruiting aggressively, we have tried to shift raiding days and times for potential new players. Still, no applicants to be found. And 3.2 already is looming on the horizon, with the PTR realms probably not too far away.

    While 10 man hardmodes are all I've ever dreamed of raiding in WoW, actually playing it (exclusively) is becoming an increasingly frustrating experience.

    P.S.: I first posted this in the WoW-raiding sub-forum. Please lock/delete that one.

  2. #2

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    FYI Normal Glory of the Raider pre-3.0 only involved 1 hard mode, not hardmodeS. And go raid ulduar 25, yes its easy, so go do it.

  3. #3

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    Okay repost...

    Make friends with the big guilds. Tell them that if any of their raiders want to join your guild for 10 mans for loot/achieves/fun on their off nights that you would be happy to take them.

    I know in my guild some people are left out of 10 man content because there are only two guild 10 man raids. There might be a couple people in a bunch of big guilds who are left out of uld 10 everyweek because of schedualing or room.

    It might be fun and social interacting with other guilds.

  4. #4

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Loklar
    Okay repost...

    Make friends with the big guilds. Tell them that if any of their raiders want to join your guild for 10 mans for loot/achieves/fun on their off nights that you would be happy to take them.

    I know in my guild some people are left out of 10 man content because there are only two guild 10 man raids.

    It might be fun and social interacting with other guilds.
    That would be a new step of recruiting, but I like the idea. Think I'm going to try that.

  5. #5

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    I'm not exactly sure what purpose of your post is, so I guess I can just offer my story and condolences.

    I'm the GM of a small 10-man guild myself. We only raid two days a week, we're on Yogg-Saron (probably would have downed him, but end of school meant three of the last five weeks were short). We got Sartharion10 + 3D pre-3.1, non-burn. We never really went for the achievements overall, but we do have the goal of being a small guild that gets things done.

    We too are watching 10-man hard modes rapidly being overcome by 25-man guilds. Part of this I'm sure is because they tend to attract more dedicated/skilled players than smaller guilds, and partially because they can just out-gear the encounters. Also, on a practical note a 25-man guild will always have the one-up on a 10-man guild doing the same hard modes because they can focus on early hard modes without worrying about clearing the zone because Ulduar25 provides their gear; for a 10-man guild you can't sink too much time into hard modes until you're downing enough bosses to ensure it isn't gear holding you back.

    I don't want to sound like I'm insulting you or your guild, as I don't know anything about it, but how much thought and effort have you put toward atmosphere? I know it sounds trivial, but that's all small guilds have to offer. We don't offer more raiding success, superior loot, or anything of that nature that a 25-man guild can't offer better. Not to brag, but several of the people in my own guild have commented how it's their favorite out of all they've ever been in, and many of my members are Day One players; I hold onto the quality of players I do not because of our high guild ranking but because they genuinely enjoy the experience more. Again, I really don't want that to come across as rude since I do not know the circumstances of your guild beyond what you've posted here.

    When it comes to recruiting, we've been unusually lucky so I don't know if I can offer any advice; our recruitment has primarily been through friends of friends of friends, drawing people in. But it seems like on my server at least (Bloodhoof) there's a robust enough pool of players at all levels; your server could just be unfortunately different.

    One possible thought for recruitment is running a half-PuG. This is what a guild friendly to my own does. They only have about five raid members who reliably show. Over time they've assembled some additional players from other guilds. Some of them, like myself, will bring alts to their runs and have no intention of joining. Others are enticed over time to perhaps join their guild. If people can come and see how your guild runs first hand, and if it appears to be worth joining, then you may come up with more people than if you advertise on the realm forum/Trade chat/wherever else. Obviously it can be frustrating as you weed out the poor players, but in some ways its more convenient because you don't have to worry about guild drama if you tell some slacker you're not bringing him next week.

    Edit: what Loklar said is also a good idea.

  6. #6

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    from the other thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_
    Hard to say without knowing what your server is, but I would put a large amount of blame on that. Almost any medium-full server with decent population balance should have enough people geared and skilled enough to do 10 man hard modes.
    Actually, recruiting seems to be a problem on just about every realm these days.
    I'm on a medium size server, and recruiting there is tough.
    So tough in fact even decent guilds arent being nearly selective enough about their recruitment, and taking "warm bodies".
    In my guild it got to the point where i hated some of the retards so much i quit raiding; in part so i didn't have to listen to the idiots speak on vent.


    Cross realm recruiting is often DIFFICULT, since it's not easy to find the right people, but harder still when you're wanting them to put out a significant sum of cash for a transfer. (a main and an alt or two at least)
    It's difficult to get to know people and see if they mesh with your crew.
    I consider myself a casual with hard-core ambitions.
    I want the bosses to die, but i want to do it with a group of friends having fun, not treating it like a 2nd job.


    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    Another thing you could do is to host some 25-man PuGs. These will probably acquaint you with who all the dead-beat, idiotic freeloaders on your server is, but I found out of every 10 dead-beats there will be one great (or, at least above average) player in an unhappy guild just waiting to be recruited.
    This is actually a good idea. Great to take to your realm forum.
    And remember; there are a lot of good raiders out there with alts. their gear may not come close to their mains, but a good player with experience is often better than a decently geared "bad".

    I used to be rabidly anti-pug, til i became unhappy in my guild, and have found some pugs better than guild runs. (sorry; i'm US alliance atm)
    Maybe on your own server you might find some players a lot like me; bored, and discontent, and ripe to be recruited....

    Best of luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Abolishment
    Eclipsicolossamegatonational? There. I've captured the essence of your penis in one, perfect, 28-letter word.

  7. #7

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Neichus
    I don't want to sound like I'm insulting you or your guild, as I don't know anything about it, but how much thought and effort have you put toward atmosphere? I know it sounds trivial, but that's all small guilds have to offer. We don't offer more raiding success, superior loot, or anything of that nature that a 25-man guild can't offer better. Not to brag, but several of the people in my own guild have commented how it's their favorite out of all they've ever been in, and many of my members are Day One players; I hold onto the quality of players I do not because of our high guild ranking but because they genuinely enjoy the experience more. Again, I really don't want that to come across as rude since I do not know the circumstances of your guild beyond what you've posted here.
    A good point and something I'm greatly caring about in our group. Atmosphere so far has been great. We tend to joke around and the dedicated part of the raid consists of players that have been raiding together since 2-4 years - without excluding the "new guys", who fit in good as well.

    There is an underlying tension, however. History repeating, I guess, with 3.2 not too far away and people thinking about the same issues I posted here.

    I'm not exactly sure what purpose of your post is, so I guess I can just offer my story and condolences.
    Venting, I guess. As said before, raiding is becoming increasingly frustrating. Every piece of advice helps. Everyone with similar experiences proves that we're not the only ones in that situation.

  8. #8

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    @Shockk: You've got a PM

  9. #9

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    Server type/faction?

    I'm looking for a guild like that, all the 10man guilds I find always suck, and the good ones only want to do 25man.

  10. #10

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    Most guilds have separate days for doing 10mans. Join one of them
    Whole
    US-Nathrezim Horde

  11. #11

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    from what i have seen the prob you are having and alot fo guilds are having is happening accross the board and only with WotLK.

    not QQing like im sure ppl will say.

    buy lower the difficulty of raiding it has made it where ppl who want to raid casually no longer have to join a raiding guild. as long as your ok having "near" BiS gear you can clear all the content and epic yourself out in almost the exact same gear as the super hardcores. i know it seems weird that amking the content easier would make true raidin harder but it has...good guild are turning to baddies to fill the open spots in there raids because there in not a huge pool of players waiting on spots in the guild to open up like there used to be in BC.

    in turn this puts you in a really hard spot. most hardcores/or simi dedicated raiders want to do 25 mans....finding ppl good enought to do normal modes would prolly be easy but finding ppl willing to put forth the effort time and skill to down 10 man hardmodes in 213 or lower gear are going to be hard to find.

    sry for such a long post with no real suggestions...im just simpithizing with you.

  12. #12

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    Allying with a hardcore 25 man guild is a good suggestion, especially if that guild only officially raids 25 mans. The more dedicated people will want to pursue the 10 man hard modes, as they are, in effect, hands-on 'previews' of the harder 25 man encounters. They are very similiar yet slightly easier to learn and manage as there are less people to keep track of. Some of our more dedicated guildies and I are doing just that, and we plan on getting the meta and hopefully Algalon eventually as well, though we share a similar problem; some days go better than others, it really depends on how strong the group is. The biggest problem is getting enough decent people to show up, but when they do it is a lot easier to get things learned and if all went well I think we could be at Algalon in just a few weeks. Some of the metas are pretty easy, but the keepers, Yogg, and FL require a very strong group. Also, you are right about 25 man raiders having advantage with gear, but take advantage of this if you can team up with even a few of them. A 25 man geared tank, healer and dps will make a huge difference. However, I do have to agree with what you are trying to say about 25 man raiders having 'your drake', however, the hard modes are supposed to be just that; hard. It still takes 25 man raiders a good chunk of dedication to complete the 10 man meta. Until you are completely 25 man geared and are familiar with the encounters, I wouldn't exactly consider a good portion of the hard mode 10 man stuff a cake walk. Only a small portion have them, while only a handful have the 25 man drake.

    Concerning my 10 man group, people are there competely by choice to do the hard modes and not so much for loot (though there are a few bis items from hard modes), and are willing to spend a lot of extra time wiping to learn some of the harder enounters. I really am looking to just complete both of the metas, most 'hardcore' ppl seem to not care about the 10 man stuff. I think my guild is capable of and will eventually be able to complete the hard mode 25 man stuff for the meta but I really don't think there is enough drive to down Algalon, and in my ten man group there is at least enough drive to get to him and asap. Part of it depends on how much time everyone has. That being said, I think this time around that the metas are much harder to complete as before there was really only three challenging parts to the meta (3D, undying/immortal, and 6 minute Maly).

    If you are planning on meeting only twice a week, you will need a good chunk of time in order to get anywhere (4-5 hours a session I'd say). You are going to want to complete the instance on easy mode first, including Yogg. The people you bring should really be able to make close to 100% attendance, or you are going to struggle to get anywhere if you don't have a backup. Try and make set times that all ppl can attend so you can skip over redoing ones you don't need so you can advance to the harder ones (also less explaining). Alot of the hardmodes require good dps, (notably hodir and mim) and a shaman for bl/heroism is basically a must. My group kind of fell apart yesterday and we didn't get much other than disarmed because about 5 ppl we needed didn't/couldn't show and we had ppl switching to alts so we had the proper roles fulfilled, and had to grab a couple puggies we didn't know and it was kind of bleh.

  13. #13

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    join a real guild and just blow through the 10 man stuff on the weekends with them?

  14. #14

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    Server type/faction?
    EU-Perenolde (german, PVE).

    Quote Originally Posted by chrion
    join a real guild and just blow through the 10 man stuff on the weekends with them?
    Most guilds have separate days for doing 10mans. Join one of them
    Sure, because I can afford to raid 5 times a week. There's a reason for only 2 days of raiding - RL, work, studies, family. You name it. Being tired of obnoxious and unreliable younger players, we almost exclusively recruit mature and older ones.

    If you are planning on meeting only twice a week, you will need a good chunk of time in order to get anywhere (4-5 hours a session I'd say). You are going to want to complete the instance on easy mode first, including Yogg. The people you bring should really be able to make close to 100% attendance, or you are going to struggle to get anywhere if you don't have a backup. Try and make set times that all ppl can attend so you can skip over redoing ones you don't need so you can advance to the harder ones (also less explaining).
    Thanks, but we are doing (or trying) all that. We're not building up a group, we're already raiding.

  15. #15

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    25-man guilds...... they tend to attract more dedicated/skilled players than smaller guilds
    This sums up your problem, generally speaking the best players want the best gear, so the best players are in 25 man guilds. There may be a few exceptional players in 10 man guilds, but their numbers are far and in between.

  16. #16

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Shockk
    For example - we only have one shaman. Say goodbye to hard mode attempts requiring speed whenever he's not there.
    My ten man group does not have a shaman since our shaman switched to druid for the requirements of raid stacking in 25 man (regardless of what blizzard says, there is a problem). We have completed the entire instance and all of the hardmodes we are capable of doing (we're missing 2 atm for the drake) without blood lust.

    I'm trying hard to not draw too many conclusions but honestly it sounds primarily like you are both unaccustomed to raid leadership in general and have something of an overly negative attitude. Yes, people who do 25 mans are at an advantage to you on some level, but on the other hand, who cares? If you're capable of raiding then you should be making some progress every week and that's what the game is about, no? Or did you expect to get ten perfect raiders, perfect raid comp and just roll through the instance because "you're a ten man guild" and that's a ten man instance?

    Yes, recruiting sucks. Yes, raid composition can be a pain in the ass. Yes, other guilds finish other things at other times. This is just as true for 25 man guilds, albeit in slightly different ways. It sounds like you are doing the instance and doing the raids, but somehow frustrated with how the game doesn't line up the stars for you and give you that perfect raid.

    You're not special because you're a ten man guild. You face many of the same problems as other people do. Saying 'oh they have slightly higher ilvl loot so they're beating us just because of that' doesn't really sound like you're assessing the situation so much as undermining yourself with your own negativity and sense of entitlement.

  17. #17

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    most of the people in a bigger guild will have alts that they would more then likely do 10s with. they will probably be on your same gear level (naxx10-25) and are good players who know the fights.

    as has been said before ask around to the bigger guilds

    Quote Originally Posted by tkjnz
    If memory serves me right, a fox is a female wolf.

  18. #18

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    Your issue has nothing to do with 10m vs 25m. The 25m raids are not taking your applicants, because the 25s are having the same issue. Attendance is down across the board for many guilds. On my server, several have completely closed shop that were active throughout BC and several more that were hardcore raid guilds have cut raiding schedules to accommodate more casual players. And yet, the server population is booming, with more so-called "raiders" than ever before.

    The issue is one of easy mode vs hard modes. The easy modes are such total jokes, with rewards that usually almost rival the hard modes and still offer the same content experience, that guilds have a hard time convincing possible applicants that it's worth putting in the extra time to learn the encounters and farm materials. PuG raids offer limited success to the truly lazy and disorganized. Most players can faceroll their way through the majority of the content with little more than a passing understanding of game mechanics and a few hours of raid time on the weekend. This kind of lackadaisical approach and the ridiculous rewards it offers are crushing guilds, both 10 and 25, with an iron fist. There is simply little or no desire to triple your time investment in raiding, farming and researching game mechanics when you can get virtually the same experience by just showing up once a week and sitting on your keyboard for a few hours.

    This behavior is further reinforced when Blizzard systematically goes through and bludgeons fights like Flame Leviathan with the nerf bat. Some of the hard modes are so stupidly easy at this point that they're manageable with only a passing attention to detail. Why commit to a raid schedule and a hard core guild when chances are your mis-matched half-pug raid every Sunday night will likely see hard mode fight _____ nerfed into the ground in a week and spewing free purples into the air for everyone?

    The result is that a lot of the 25 man guilds have an easier time attempting the 10 man hard modes than the 25 man hard modes, simply because they can't find the interest in the 25 man versions. The 10s, in turn, exist as little more than a stepping stone for PuG content and nobody but the most bored of players has the interest in hard modes. WoTLK raid design has been a complete debacle across the board and I would not be surprised to see guilds closing their doors in droves within the coming months. At this point the only fix I can see is changing easy mode loot so it drops nothing except a welfare badge, and leaving *all* items for hard modes, but the entire community's perception of raid content has been so deliriously warped at this point that it may not even be salvageable until the next expansion.

  19. #19

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    I read a blue post maybe 2-4 months ago address the topic. Basically it said Blizzard envisioned the 10 and 25 raids to be two distinct paths. But now that wrath has been out for several months, its become clear to them that you have two types of players:

    1. People who raid 25s and also do 10s.
    2. People who do neither.

    The post basically said this is a broken system as it means that that they are creating 2 sets of dungeons for the same subset of wow players. It was hinted at that if the demand isn't there for just raiding 10 mans exclusively, they might discontinue creating 10 man raid content. I'll try to find the blue post, but it could be hard.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  20. #20

    Re: Raiding 10man hardmodes ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark
    My ten man group does not have a shaman since our shaman switched to druid for the requirements of raid stacking in 25 man (regardless of what blizzard says, there is a problem). We have completed the entire instance and all of the hardmodes we are capable of doing (we're missing 2 atm for the drake) without blood lust.

    I'm trying hard to not draw too many conclusions but honestly it sounds primarily like you are both unaccustomed to raid leadership in general and have something of an overly negative attitude. Yes, people who do 25 mans are at an advantage to you on some level, but on the other hand, who cares? If you're capable of raiding then you should be making some progress every week and that's what the game is about, no? Or did you expect to get ten perfect raiders, perfect raid comp and just roll through the instance because "you're a ten man guild" and that's a ten man instance?

    Yes, recruiting sucks. Yes, raid composition can be a pain in the ass. Yes, other guilds finish other things at other times. This is just as true for 25 man guilds, albeit in slightly different ways. It sounds like you are doing the instance and doing the raids, but somehow frustrated with how the game doesn't line up the stars for you and give you that perfect raid.

    You're not special because you're a ten man guild. You face many of the same problems as other people do. Saying 'oh they have slightly higher ilvl loot so they're beating us just because of that' doesn't really sound like you're assessing the situation so much as undermining yourself with your own negativity and sense of entitlement.
    A shaman certainly isn't neccessary if your other players compensate for the lack with superior DPS and overall outstanding performance. If this isn't the case and you can not rely exclusively on such players - well, bad luck. If you'd read my first post thoroughly you'd have noticed that exactly this is our problem - lack of players.

    I have (successfully) led raids from Molten Core up to Ulduar. I know about the pain that recruitment is and how important it is to start it as early as possible. I know about the horrors of summer concerning raid attendance and to plan ahead in time. Don't lecture me on basics - thanks.

    Our problem isn't that we feel entitled to success because we think we're special. Nonsense. Our problem is that although 10man hardmode raiding offers very nice rewards in forms of items, mount and title, very few players are interested in it. And those who do usually raid it as a filler in between 25man raids.

    Again - I'm not blaming anyone, I'm not qq'ing because "the game doesn't line up the stars" for our raid. I'm just noticing that raiding 10 man hard modes exclusively is becoming an increasingly frustrating experience if you build up your group from scratch. But hey, thanks for all the negative assumptions.

    Shockk you sound like a grumpy bitch that has zero social skills and wants to be carried through content. The reason it's "impossible" for you to find "good" players is because you're a dick. Maybe if you were nicer you could find people, but losers stay losers for life. Go "vent" more about a video game. Grump.
    Yeah ... right. Whatever.

    Thanks for all the feedback so far. I can only repeat: I'm not blaming, I'm not QQing, I'm not asking to be carried through content or have my proto-drake handed to me. All I'm doing is ... well, writing down what concerns me and waiting what others think of it. If others have advice (like setting up "recruitment PuGs" - thanks again for that idea). If other people experience the same stuff.

    10 man raiding has been promoted as a distinct path by Blizzard, with according rewards and difficulties. In my opinion, this has truly been achieved with Ulduar and its hard modes. And I'm dissapointed that I can't properly experience those challenges because the community doesn't accept/recognize this type of raiding. I know of no single successful 10 man hard mode raiding group (built from scratch, mind you, not the usual bunch of 25 man raiders raiding 10 mans on the weekend) on my server. Maybe my server sucks - who knows. If it works for you, if you have enough players, if the community of your server supports this style of raiding - yeah! Congratulations.

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