Ret rework suggestion.

[SaintMongoose]

i dont really want my slow to cost 900 mana

Erm I'll read over everything again but if I remember the only slow we have is JoJ which I in no part remember saying would get a mana increase, actually I said no skills would be increased in mana since I'm trying to promote using more support skills/heals through DPS.

[xenosque]

Erm I'll read over everything again but if I remember the only slow we have is JoJ which I in no part remember saying would get a mana increase, actually I said no skills would be increased in mana since I'm trying to promote using more support skills/heals through DPS.

he meant if a slow effect was added to consecrate it wouldnt be worth 900 mana to slow some one, also trying to redirect ret into a support class is a real bad idea and the added heal effects u put in would be of no use in pvp mots ret pallies have no intent of healing any one other than themselves while in combat and most of the other ideas are not very original.

imo ret is fine in pvp even with all the latest changes , the only change i feel is necessary is a change to holy wrath similar to the one made to exorcism allow it to be used on nonplayer enemies and it only stuns undead/demons and ret dps will be raised a fair amount in pve

[Andixas]

Erm I'll read over everything again but if I remember the only slow we have is JoJ

JoJ isnt a slow, its an increase inhibitor.

Look at it like this. You have cars on a freeway doing 100mph. Ret doesnt let them hit the nas. "Slow" refers to what other melee do by reducing them to lower than 100.

"Cannot flee or move faster than your normal movement speed. This is not considered a movement impairing effect."

Not complaining about JoJ, just pointing out the difference.

[Andixas]

imo ret is fine in pvp even with all the latest changes , the only change i feel is necessary is a change to holy wrath similar to the one made to exorcism allow it to be used on nonplayer enemies and it only stuns undead/demons and ret dps will be raised a fair amount in pve

Blizzard has said they dont like the "this works in pve but not pvp" type of attacks, they even stated theyre probably going to change Vind, so it will be useful for both pve and pvp. All in all Im looking forward to the coming changes, at the same time as hoping they get them right.

[SaintMongoose]

JoJ isnt a slow, its an increase inhibitor.

Look at it like this. You have cars on a freeway doing 100mph. Ret doesnt let them hit the nas. "Slow" refers to what other melee do by reducing them to lower than 100.

"Cannot flee or move faster than your normal movement speed. This is not considered a movement impairing effect."

Not complaining about JoJ, just pointing out the difference.

Ahh I never noticed the JoJ change I havent used it since BC because I like JoL for the reason it basically negates the damage of SoB, I just remember spamming JoJ on druids in BC :P. But returning to the 900 mana post dont forget I said it would be raised duration wise to 20 seconds and it would follow you so the closest thing I would compair it to is a passive AoE Piercing Howl.

[SaintMongoose]

Blizzard has said they dont like the "this works in pve but not pvp" type of attacks, they even stated theyre probably going to change Vind, so it will be useful for both pve and pvp. All in all Im looking forward to the coming changes, at the same time as hoping they get them right.

Thats why in my post I said to make exorcism not be able to crit on players making it increase steady damage but not a huge burst.

he meant if a slow effect was added to consecrate it wouldnt be worth 900 mana to slow some one, also trying to redirect ret into a support class is a real bad idea and the added heal effects u put in would be of no use in pvp mots ret pallies have no intent of healing any one other than themselves while in combat and most of the other ideas are not very original

Paladins has been stated as a defensive hybrid so in my eyes ret shouldent be based all about damage. Also I could see if this was how ret actually was they would be extreamly helpful in a 5v5 arena or small BG (AB/WSG/EotS) for the reason they indirectly heal others while they would be doing what they normally would.

And in instances/raids I find myself constantly casting Sacred Shield/FoL on the tank when I see the healers having a problem and DPS can handle it's self because I rolled a paladin back in pre BC when I started wow thinking they were a support DPS as ret but I stuck with it even though it wasent what I thought.

[Eletharin]

Don't want to get too involved, but 5% max mana return every 30s is ridiculous and another spell in your normal DPS rotation that heals doesn't make sense.

^ This would add to the fact that we're a hybrid, so in my eyes we should have a way to heal one ally (In PvE most likely a tank or in PvP a healer or partner in arena) not on command so we dont have to drop attacking to be what we are, hybrids.

Hybrid mean you can respec and tank, or respec and heal ... you shouldn't be an effective healer while you are ripping people's faces off. Healers to crap damage, damage should do crap heals. Even if you were designed to effectively heal .. you SHOULD HAVE TO STOP DPSING TO DO IT.

The most broken thing with the paladin class are some of its players.

[SaintMongoose]

Don't want to get too involved, but 5% max mana return every 30s is ridiculous and another spell in your normal DPS rotation that heals doesn't make sense.

Hybrid mean you can respec and tank, or respec and heal ... you shouldn't be an effective healer while you are ripping people's faces off. Healers to crap damage, damage should do crap heals. Even if you were designed to effectively heal .. you SHOULD HAVE TO STOP DPSING TO DO IT.

The most broken thing with the paladin class are some of its players.

First off in no way would the Holy Wrath be in your rotation since it only has a 40% chance to be useable after a 30 seconds CD. Second off you wouldent be an effective healer, what I'm trying to aim for is about 25-40% what a normal raid healer would do while your DPS is about 80% of what a pure DPS would do. What I was trying to aim for with this is to make ret stay true to the fact that a paladin is a defensive hybrid while their doing what they are supposed to do, DPS. Also if blizzard thought the same way you do atm they wouldent have add'd JoL, DS, and Blood Aura. I never would say ret should be able to heal an instance or effectivly offheal a raid.

[kailtas]

i like the consecration idea, but make it costly.
change glyph to

1. increases duration and cd to x sec.

2. makes consecration ticks unable to break stealth or invis effects

but stil make when u click on it ure able to unstealth but u cant just run around and unstealth everything

[SeifX]

I know this is your idea of what Ret could be like, but I will give you my thoughts and opinions based on Blizzard and what they've said so far.

1. One of the biggest changes is the Judgment cooldown, this as seen by Blizzard and myself is a big no-no not just because its so core to the paladin (blue rage bar) in terms of maintaining that dps rotation (what it is or will be). Additionally they mentioned that during WotLK the Judgment system was something they devoted a lot of time to and were happy with the results so no matter the degree of reworking pally will get in the future, we can bet it will not be Judgments. My personal thoughts are the Crusader Strike, as we can all agree, currently is a simple autoattack and requires a little oomph to it. Past that Divine Storm and Exocism are close seconds.

2. You tried to make Crusader Strike unique in that it will increase casting if cought during the process by 50% similar to Curse of Tongues but if Im not mistaken, if you are already in the process of casting, and a Warlock places a CoT on you, it will NOT increase your current cast time but instead increase the consecutive cast. I assume that is a technical limitation on the code. Therefore unless I misunderstood and your idea was for Crusader Strike to be used in such a manner as CoT, then executing Crusader Strike during a enemy's cast (to increase it) wont be possible in terms of coding I would think. Unless...I just had an idea as I was writing this second paragraph, Crusader Strike when used during an enemy's cast has a 100% change/guaranteed to push the spell back 50-75%.

Overall the ideas were thought out I just think you should continue to hammer them out as you get feedback and more time to think about them. One thing I think everyone should consider when coming up with their versions of changes is to make them 1. with Blizzards current thoughts in their mind, 2. unique and fun and 3. scalable and expandable in terms of the future when new gear/expansion arrives.

Thanks for sharing this, and I hope you find some of the comments including mine helpful =)

[SaintMongoose]

i like the consecration idea, but make it costly.
change glyph to

1. increases duration and cd to x sec.

2. makes consecration ticks unable to break stealth or invis effects

but stil make when u click on it ure able to unstealth but u cant just run around and unstealth everything

Mmm yea I was thinking the same thing when it comes to unstealthing, but what I was thinking is change the glyph to increase the range of it or something with this but I dont want it to nerf prot at all.

I know this is your idea of what Ret could be like, but I will give you my thoughts and opinions based on Blizzard and what they've said so far.

1. One of the biggest changes is the Judgment cooldown, this as seen by Blizzard and myself is a big no-no not just because its so core to the paladin (blue rage bar) in terms of maintaining that dps rotation (what it is or will be). Additionally they mentioned that during WotLK the Judgment system was something they devoted a lot of time to and were happy with the results so no matter the degree of reworking pally will get in the future, we can bet it will not be Judgments. My personal thoughts are the Crusader Strike, as we can all agree, currently is a simple autoattack and requires a little oomph to it. Past that Divine Storm and Exocism are close seconds.

2. You tried to make Crusader Strike unique in that it will increase casting if cought during the process by 50% similar to Curse of Tongues but if Im not mistaken, if you are already in the process of casting, and a Warlock places a CoT on you, it will NOT increase your current cast time but instead increase the consecutive cast. I assume that is a technical limitation on the code. Therefore unless I misunderstood and your idea was for Crusader Strike to be used in such a manner as CoT, then executing Crusader Strike during a enemy's cast (to increase it) wont be possible in terms of coding I would think. Unless...I just had an idea as I was writing this second paragraph, Crusader Strike when used during an enemy's cast has a 100% change/guaranteed to push the spell back 50-75%.

Overall the ideas were thought out I just think you should continue to hammer them out as you get feedback and more time to think about them. One thing I think everyone should consider when coming up with their versions of changes is to make them 1. with Blizzards current thoughts in their mind, 2. unique and fun and 3. scalable and expandable in terms of the future when new gear/expansion arrives.

Thanks for sharing this, and I hope you find some of the comments including mine helpful =)

Actually I found it very helpful
What I was trying to go with the crusader strike debuff was so you would try to time it near the end so their NEXT heal would be less effective and eather A. they would take a nice hit on their health before they finnish the heal or B. their forced to use instant heals because of pressure (Making their instant heal on cooldown so you can hit them with a burst with the changed judgement setup. Also to the part about where blizzard has worked hard on reworking judgement all I see is this expanding on it because between talents/gear your judgement would be around what 15 seconds? Making it not used as much but a must use while off cooldown. I was thinking of saying make it 15 seconds but between talents and gear it would be way to short of a cooldown for the mechanic I posted. I was trying to spread ret's burst not make it hit evey CD and wait for them to come of CD :P

And to the part about keeping blizzards thoughts in mind they said they wanted a more interactive combat system and thats what I tried to do with this

[Babypost]

Why are you going to such lengths so as to explain/justify something that will never happen?

[SaintMongoose]

Why are you going to such lengths so as to explain/justify something that will never happen?

Because I have nothing better to do atm and I already said I dont expect any of this to ever happen I just enjoy speaking my mind.

[Whitcher]

Thats why the extra attack after it cost's no mana and whenever you get to use Holy Wrath it returns mana :P

Also dont forget that you have talents that reduce it and other things (Gear, ect)

Though I will agree I just didnt want it to low that the extra attack would give to much burst. Maybe an increase on the mana from JotW to fix?

It's not the attack after the judgment that would run you out of mana. It's the lack of mana return from JotW. Glad to see the class is so easy for you.

[Mysmere]

someone said something about cons following pallies and adding a slow to it... i'll quote next time..

[SaintMongoose]

It's not the attack after the judgment that would run you out of mana. It's the lack of mana return from JotW. Glad to see the class is so easy for you.

If you read though my replys someone brought this up and I said they could possibly buff the mana returned to fix the lost mana.

[Kampret]

Reworked Hammer of Justice :

Daze an opponent for 3 secs, removing a single buff and silencing the target for 3 secs. If critted in dazed state, player gains 100% critical strike chance for the next attack. 10 sec cooldown.

Opponent can still move at 'daze' speed, but no more stun effect.






Reworked Repentance :

Same effect as now, added : drains mana/rage/energy for X % every second for 3 seconds, returning the same amount to the paladin. If repented target is hit during the duration, the paladin will be damaged for X damage. Need new animation. Cooldown reduced to 45 secs.

[Sinron990]

Seriously, 99% of all "suggestion" posts from players that play that class are retarded. All of them would make the class OP - of course, everyone wants his/her class to be the best.

Things like "we're a hybrid, so let's add an ability that heals someone while we dps" is mixed with "Ret is the DPS spec so it should do as much dps as pure's".

Always the same story, rarely seen a "good" suggestion from players of that class (true for any class, but much more so for Paladins and DKs interestingly enough) that look at more than one issue. There is a couple of good posts about possible fixes for individual issues, but this whole "class redesign" thing is not something that will come from the players of this class.

[Abandon]

Why are you going to such lengths so as to explain/justify something that will never happen?

The same reason there is a thread on the Priest forum full of suggestions to fix Shadow in PVP.

[SaintMongoose]

Seriously, 99% of all "suggestion" posts from players that play that class are retarded. All of them would make the class OP - of course, everyone wants his/her class to be the best.

Things like "we're a hybrid, so let's add an ability that heals someone while we dps" is mixed with "Ret is the DPS spec so it should do as much dps as pure's".

Always the same story, rarely seen a "good" suggestion from players of that class (true for any class, but much more so for Paladins and DKs interestingly enough) that look at more than one issue. There is a couple of good posts about possible fixes for individual issues, but this whole "class redesign" thing is not something that will come from the players of this class.

Never ask'd/expect any of this to happen, if I did I would have posted it on the WoW Forums not MMO-Champion imo.

Also we already have 2 non direct healing effects if you havent already noticed.

Another thing is paladins are a defensive hybrid and I dont see someone who's defensive do the same damage as someone who's class is ment to just kill. And to the DK part, it's a new class so alot of people want what they expected from the class tbh. I posted this because ret DPS is quite dull atm.