Page 1 of 4
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,274

    Shadow Haste Cap

    When talking about haste (in terms of spells), people tend to say the effective cap is 650, after where the effect of haste is extremely inefficient. Looking at the only spell we got that scale decently with haste, Mind Flay, and the 4p Tier8 bonus, I'm thinking about it's clever to go over this cap.

    Currently I have 466 passive haste rating, thus a total of 706 haste on Mind Flay, 56 over the cap. The proc only knocks of 0.11 second of my cast-time, rendering it less useful than if I could replace 100-150 haste rating from my gear.

    I'm wondering if others agree this way, and that we could, when talking Pseudo Power for gear rating, write Haste as 0 value when we got over 300-350 haste?

    Ideas I got would be to downgrade my Freya boots (see my armoury), with some boots with Critical Strike rating on them? But that would possible also lead to a drop in spell power, so not entirely sure (Idea would be Yogg-10 crit boots).

    (Repost from ensidia.com)

  2. #2

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    I'm sitting at a similar haste level with 4pc, and although my dps has gone up, it think it mostly because of the sp upgrades and such, and dots getting up quicker, and that the haste isnt wasted during bloodlust/heroism.

    But yea, the crit gear is hard to come by, my guild fire mages seem to bid mad high on the crit gear, so I get left with the crit/haste or pure haste.

    I tried experimenting with 2-2-3 flaying, as to make use of the haste, but in any fight other than xt, It's hard to focus on something so miniscule with everything going on.

    Other than getting in dots quicker and occasionally a sw:d before mind blast comes back up, I feel that any haste over 400 is probably not worth very much.

    armory btw http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...den&n=Hevnlyst

  3. #3
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,274

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    It's rather few fights in Ulduar, and most likely also in later content, where we're allowed to have a stand-still Patchwerk like rotation, so it's not so much that which bothers me.

    But the less haste we got, the more powerful is the proc, and if we reach a total waste beyond 650, the effect is very little. Now I raid a lot of 10man, so I'd prefer not to live on the 3% haste buff from raids, but in case it's there, we could go even lower, to say, 250-300 haste. I'd always prefer to remain over 11% no matter what, for the double-flay rotation.

  4. #4

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    I think the drop haste until you can just fit 2 flays would be optimal, but along the way to BiS, its the question of is there adequate 239 crit gear, and would dropping haste in order to gain crit result in a loss of spellpower.
    I'm in the same boat, where 25 hm gear is out of reach for a while still, but in order to stay close to current Bis lists, you end with buttloads of extra haste, mostly due to it being in excess on the tier pieces and offset stuff.

    Although dps may suffer, or well not scale properly for a short while, I think the hm gear, aka algalon pharos gloves, boots of fiery resolution, handwraps of the vigilant, possibly legs off freya, will bring in the crit eventually.

  5. #5
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,274

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    They will, but it's a bit far away, and I'm concerned about better scaling with raid-buffs (Haste don't really scale with anything).

    I think the BiS gear list overrated the value of haste a bit in general, and don't accumulate for the extra 240 haste from the T8 proc. Since the general opinion says that after 650 haste (including buffs) haste is close to useless.

  6. #6

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    I find this topic interesting. I'm actually sitting as high as 605 haste unbuffed at the moment (and I also have 4pc T8), and although I'm aiming to swap some haste for crit when the gear becomes available, I feel I am doing quite okay in Ulduar.

    A couple things I wondered when reading your post were:
    Firstly, where can I read something comprehensive regarding this 'general opinion' that haste is useless above 650. Naturally I'm clipping my flay to get the most out of my haste.
    Secondly, why do you say haste doesn't scale with raid buffs? 1% haste and a Totem of Wrath should scale quite similarly to 1% crit and a Totem of Wrath, judging by the accepted values.

  7. #7
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,274

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Yes, but 13% spell power would imo. be more effective with bigger crits, and for encounter specific buffs such as Storm Power, crit is a winner with a large margin.

    In regards to 650 haste as the "cap", have a chat with your healers about that We're the only class who's close/over the cap at any point, so most other caster classes never been too concerned about it.

    But basically, from a math point of view, the value of haste is largely dwindling after 650 haste rating (buffed).

  8. #8

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    Yes, but 13% spell power would imo. be more effective with bigger crits, and for encounter specific buffs such as Storm Power, crit is a winner with a large margin.

    In regards to 650 haste as the "cap", have a chat with your healers about that We're the only class who's close/over the cap at any point, so most other caster classes never been too concerned about it.

    But basically, from a math point of view, the value of haste is largely dwindling after 650 haste rating (buffed).
    What is this 650 haste cap based on and where is the source? or math?

    There is so much false information on forums that numbers thrown in without anything to back them up mean nothing to me. 650 haste is ~19,8%, personally I can't see any threshold at that number looking at our rotation. Our rotation is dominated by the 5.5sec MB CD. We have 2 kind of spells, ones that take a GCD (1.5sec) and MF that takes 2 (3sec), both affected by haste ofc. It's easy to see how fitting 4 GCDs in that 5.5sec will improve our rotation alot. So we need 8.33% haste just to make our rotation flow naturally (which is bad design if you ask me), because 0.9167*4*1.5sec = 5.5sec, aka the magical MB CD.

    After that 8.33% it gets rocky again. The next threshold would to fit 5 GCDs between MB CD, but that already requires 26.6% haste, (0.733*5*1.5sec = 5.5sec). So what are your options if you are sitting somewhere between 8.33% and 26.6% haste, like most of us are? After 4 GCDs you need to either WAIT for MB CD to finish (which pretty much negates the whole point of stacking haste)or you can cast another spell putting a total of 5-6 GCDs between MBs, making our highest dmg spell being cast less and the last point of Improved MB pretty much useless. Again, bad design if you ask me.

  9. #9
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,274

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Yes, your ideas are fine for a stationary fight. But considering such fights are mostly limited to pathetic easy fights (think Ignis) or entry-level content, I wish people would stop thinking like that.

    I'm just a bit concerned about having more than 2 flays (plus a bit extra), ala. 10-11%. It doesn't seem like optimal use of the haste. And In regards to haste, Lets assume we always have 3% haste raid-buffed, so having 17% haste results in your Mind Blast being almost 1 second cast, thus equal to the GCD. So more than 17% haste would start rendering the value useless for Mind Blast.

    While it seems a bit higher for Mind Flay, the value is lowering more and more due to spell haste being exponential.

  10. #10

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    Yes, your ideas are fine for a stationary fight. But considering such fights are mostly limited to pathetic easy fights (think Ignis) or entry-level content, I wish people would stop thinking like that.
    Yes, it's a stationary case, but let's face it, most of time even in Ulduar is spent standing still casting, so it's important. There is movement but usually it's more like 20sec-1min standing still nuking then 5sec to run away/reposition, and then back to nuking. Yogg could be the biggest exception for this, but it's just one fight. And honestly I don't see haste getting more useful even as movement increases, because it means that dots start getting more weight and I think we can all agree that haste for dots is crap. The spells getting most out of haste are the ones you have to stand still to cast, MB and MF.

    I'm just a bit concerned about having more than 2 flays (plus a bit extra), ala. 10-11%. It doesn't seem like optimal use of the haste. And In regards to haste, Lets assume we always have 3% haste raid-buffed, so having 17% haste results in your Mind Blast being almost 1 second cast, thus equal to the GCD. So more than 17% haste would start rendering the value useless for Mind Blast.
    To make MB, a 1.5sec cast to a 1sec cast you will need 33.3% haste, which is quite unrealistic. It can only happen during heroism.




  11. #11

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Said it once, said it a million times, cant theorycraft Shadow Priest.

    <- 650 Haste before 4set.
    DPS is going down, I would rather spirit than shitty haste.

    Rolling a resto druid atm, Shadow is fun, but being bottom rung because we have good aoe and damage reduction? gg

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Barthilas&n=Strykie

  12. #12

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Strykzor
    Said it once, said it a million times, cant theorycraft Shadow Priest.

    <- 650 Haste before 4set.
    DPS is going down, I would rather spirit than shitty haste.

    Rolling a resto druid atm, Shadow is fun, but being bottom rung because we have good aoe and damage reduction? gg
    I hear damage meters mean everything and that damage meters proves you're superior to others, gg.

    Firstly the word cap is misused quite a bit, there is no cap as such, haste always increases your cast time. Before you flame me Nezoia keep in mind that you have more than once argued the semantics when i've used the word rotation instead of priority.

    I remember when haste first became available as a stat back in TBC and it was identifed that there were haste sweet spots but spriests should simply ignore them. More haste will always result in more dps and considering the amount of haste required to reach the soft cap (that is 50% haste and note this is a soft cap and not a real cap) is unobtainable I don't see how going over the magic number is really that much of a concern.

    As Nezoia has pointed out, there are very Uld fights where you can simply stand still and produce a max dps rotation/priority. Movement in particular makes haste very attractive because you get into weird rotation/priority patterns and you simply want to get through your spells as quickly as possible. Keep in mind that haste reduces your GCD and when you have conflicts where you need to refresh VT & DP while MB is comming off CD the lower GCD time helps you manage those conflicts.

    I highly doubt that haste has a 0 pp value above this so called cap (of which i'm highly skeptical and would love to see the reasoning and numbers to back it up) but I do concede it probably has a somewhat reduced effect. How reduced is probably a very difficult question to answer.

    Lastly my best in slot set only comes to about 420 odd haste or 660 with the 4pc set bonus... so again i'm not really perturbed or feel the need to downgrade gear about something that is highly theoretical and most likely has an unnoticed impact to dps.

    That's just my thoughts but i'd be interested to see the reasoning behind this so called cap.

  13. #13
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,274

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Well, the most obvious reason is that haste is exponential. So it WILL be less worth per point the more you get of it.

    I think a replacement of 100 haste for 100 crit rating would be a dps increase if you got more than say, 400 haste.

    The problem is haste and crit is ranked equal in simulationcraft atm. which I think is wrong for players with 4-500 passive haste. We must remember we get 3% from raid-buffs as well, which is what, equal to a total of 1000 haste when using the 4 piece bonus?

    Along with the issue of stationary fights, crit increase the damage of our dots, haste do not. Haste only benefit two spells, and I think the benefit of Mind Flay will be reduced the more haste we get over a certain value (380-400 sounds like it, based on many players different experiences).

    At least, stacking mad haste won't get us anywhere, I think 25% crit would increase my dps a lot more, but it's terrible difficult to test!

    Lastly my best in slot set only comes to about 420 odd haste or 660 with the 4pc set bonus... so again i'm not really perturbed or feel the need to downgrade gear about something that is highly theoretical and most likely has an unnoticed impact to dps.
    Do your best in slot contain Algalon and 25man hardmode gear?

    Try be realistic. I will NOT have 25man hardmode gear available before 3.2, and it's unlikely we'll get after 3.2, so it's rather irrelevant to me.

  14. #14

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    I totally agree. I'm already slowly ditching my haste for crit.

  15. #15

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    We must remember we get 3% from raid-buffs as well, which is what, equal to a total of 1000 haste when using the 4 piece bonus?
    Tbh u get 8% haste from raidbuffs, IMF\SR + WoA totem(5% spellhaste only).

  16. #16

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Would this 'cap' have anything to do with the amount needed to get the GCD from 1.5 to 1? Not contributing or providing any math, just curious and it might help out. I know that resto druids shoot for a similar "cap" just to get their GCD to 1s and then start going SP, I wonder if this is a similar situation? DoTs?

  17. #17

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    Well, the most obvious reason is that haste is exponential. So it WILL be less worth per point the more you get of it.
    Haste is exponetial? How do you figure that? Haste Rating to Haste Percentage is a linear relationship and if you have 1% haste you can cast 1 exta spell in 100 and if you have 10% haste you can cast 10 extra spells in 100... that too is a linear relationship, I don't understand where it becomes exponential.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    The problem is haste and crit is ranked equal in simulationcraft atm. which I think is wrong for players with 4-500 passive haste. We must remember we get 3% from raid-buffs as well, which is what, equal to a total of 1000 haste when using the 4 piece bonus?
    Last I checked crit was slightly ahead of haste, I have crit worth 0.71 PP and Haste worth 0.65 PP and these seem to be the current values posted at www.shadowpriest.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    Along with the issue of stationary fights, crit increase the damage of our dots, haste do not. Haste only benefit two spells, and I think the benefit of Mind Flay will be reduced the more haste we get over a certain value (380-400 sounds like it, based on many players different experiences).
    This is true and untrue at the same time... firstly crit is subject to RNG, just because you have 25% crit doesn't guarantee 25% crit in an encounter. Sure over time the law of averages means you tend to this rate but dropping SP for crit can be dangerous in that you drop guaranteed dps for something that is subject to RNG. Same goes with haste, it guarantees you can cast more spells and generally I prefer SP & Haste for this reason.

    Having said that I don't doubt that in some circumstances droping some haste for crit is a dps gain, but I believe that dps gain is probably minimal. Also keep in mind that you get more haste per ilvl than you do crit. Lastly a lot of BiS items can be heavy haste items and finding the next best crit item can be very sub standard in comparison. Look at the grasps of reason vs Shackles of the Odalisque, its a 20pp downgrade... I doubt the reduced haste effect is worth 20pp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    At least, stacking mad haste won't get us anywhere, I think 25% crit would increase my dps a lot more, but it's terrible difficult to test!
    Do your best in slot contain Algalon and 25man hardmode gear?
    I agree stacking haste at the expense of all other stats is retarded... however if you did get super duper mad haste there is another sweet spot of an extra MF between MBs... infact from a logical point of view there must be sweet spots every time you get enought haste to fit in 7, 8, 9, 10 MF ticks in 5.5sec.

    No, my BiS gear doesnt contain Algalon loots, but it does contain some hard modes but I don't necessarily believe those hard modes are unobtainable... Hodir (already done), Flame Lev, Iron Council, XT & Freya are all obtainable hard modes (imo), the more difficult ones will be Mimiron, Vezax & Yogg, but 3 slots out of 18 isn't a real worry. (FYI these are the hard modes that contain BiS loot as I see it).

    Try be realistic. I will NOT have 25man hardmode gear available before 3.2, and it's unlikely we'll get after 3.2, so it's rather irrelevant to me.
    [/quote]

    So again I don't see how there is a cap on haste... there is a soft cap at 50% but the amount of haste rating required for that soft cap is close to unobtainable or if you did obtain it you would do at the expense of all other stats which is just a bad strategy to begin with. I think you're probably trying to min/max a little too extreme... but possibly prioritising a slight about of crit, over haste, in a slot where it makes sense isn't necessary a bad idea but I wouldn't do anything drastic.

  18. #18

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Didnt read yet the whole thread. Since i was unhappy with too much haste in combination with the 4pc bonus, i tried to lower my haste. I had around ~460 Haste.

    I got lucky and got the Staff from Hodir [hm] and with some other item Changes, my haste dropped to 318. In my Opinion that now much more playable for me since i didnt have to wait anymore for the MB CD after casting 2 MF, atleast not as long as i had to with 460 Haste.


    Here my Armory : http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...n=Lostprophêt

  19. #19

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    I hear damage meters mean everything and that damage meters proves you're superior to others, gg.
    I NEVER stuff up in PvE, if I do, its a 1 off thing.
    If i cant do decent damage as the class i play, why should i play it?

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Barthilas&n=Strykie

  20. #20

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Strykzor
    I NEVER stuff up in PvE, if I do, its a 1 off thing.
    If i cant do decent damage as the class i play, why should i play it?
    Coz u like the Class?

    Besides that, Shadows are really good in Hardmodes, we never die! we do alot of dmg! we can mc on Thorim(the mced mob does around 7k dps) we never have mana & Threat issues (even on Vezax hardmode, i died yesterday @40%Mana @20% Animous hp, a guy didnt get out with life leech DoT fast enough -.-(I even popped Dispersion but i got full dmg....).

    B2T: another Question, since im not that good at math, how much haste in % do i need to get a 2.75s cast time from a 3s cast? (If I did the Math right its ~9%)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •