New Vindication

[Handsylton]

Sure, the new change lacks creativity, but it brings a very useful debuff to the table for us. If you keep saying that it sucks, then just don't use it. I know that I'm going to spec into it so I can bring a useful debuff to the table for my raid, instead of complaining about Blizzard not being original enough with their ideas. Asking Blizzard to do something unique with every class would completely throw off balance. While we're making Vindication unique, let's change warlock's and mage's and everyone else's AoE abilities so they are all unique and not just the same spell with different graphics and a different name... Oh wait, that would throw off balance completely. Just saying, having classes overlap to some degree is not a bad thing, it's just a way to keep classes balanced. No matter what, people are going to QQ over abilities they don't have, but there is your uniqueness right there. The Vindication change is a useful one, not a unique and amazing one, but a useful one.

[Whoopzz]

As I stated in another thread some where, Blizzard needs to make it reduce attack power and spell power. Would fix a LOT of PvP problems with our severe lack of utility and general inability to kill healers.

[Bananengurke]

This whole patch makes you more like warriors...

Divine storm = warriors whirlwind ( same CD i think) Both AOE moves
crusader strike = warriors BT ( 4 second CD )
exorcism = slam ( both 1.5 second cast )
art of war = bloodsurge ( both can proc to make 1.5 second cast instant )
you now have Demo shout ( melee AP debuff )

also:
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=10308
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http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12809

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48932
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http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=47436

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48806
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http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=47471

also some more indirect ones like warrior talents and pally auras

I think they got holy pallys good, but they just copy and paste over from warriors to ret and prot more and more

[nwo]

As I stated in another thread some where, Blizzard needs to make it reduce attack power and spell power. Would fix a LOT of PvP problems with our severe lack of utility and general inability to kill healers.

I would definitely be for that change. I don't see why they go from -20% buff to all classes to just a debuff for some classes. Melee isn't even a problem for paladins, casters are so it would be very nice, beneficial, and unique if it reduced SP.

[olicon]

and u don't think it lacks creativity?

There are only limited number of stats in the game, only a few of which actually affect damage. If you want to reduce the target's damage, you can reduce str, AP, and to some extent int, SP, agi, and crit, or flat out reduce incoming damage. The most direct one is of course AP. You really can't get that creative when there's nothing to be creative about. I guess it can change the AP/rating conversion or weapon speed calculation or something, but you'd have to agree that is needlessly complicated.

[Melonberry]

"Vindication: Redesigned. Now lowers target attack power, is consistent and does not stack with Demoralizing Shout."

Alright, i don't know if any1 has been over this yet but i really think this change is lame, like totally lacking originality or creativity. I remember those blue posts saying Blizzard did not wanna give us copies of warriors abilities because it was poor design or something and they just screwed Vindication to a point that it does not even affect casters anymore.

The problem Blizzard mentioned about Vindication was the Health and Mana consequences of "-20% stats" which completely overshadowed the damage reduction. I understand that the goal was to allow us to debuff our targets by reducing their damage and possibly healing (by reducing spirit). In that case, why don't they just let the ability reduce damage and/or healing cause by the target by lets say 3 to 6 % ? Yes most people will start saying "OP" but my point is "The new Vindication Sux."

Vindication never lowered caster damage (by a noticeable amount)...Now it lowers melee damage by even more than before. It's actually a huge buff from the damage reduction angle.

It's always best to spread buffs/debuffs around rather than make new ones. If it did something unique and worked on bosses, it would then be required.

[Ronark]

Vindication never lowered caster damage (by a noticeable amount)...Now it lowers melee damage by even more than before. It's actually a huge buff from the damage reduction angle.

It's always best to spread buffs/debuffs around rather than make new ones. If it did something unique and worked on bosses, it would then be required.

The thing is, they gave us a tool to help vs. Melee targets.... ones that we already have a good advantage over. Our problems lye when against Casters or Healers, which the new Vindication will do nothing against.

[iktankniet]

The thing is, they gave us a tool to help vs. Melee targets.... ones that we already have a good advantage over. Our problems lye when against Casters or Healers, which the new Vindication will do nothing against.

lowering AP/SP by a X%. wont be OP against scrubs (less ap/sp so taken by vindication)

[Whoopzz]

lowering AP/SP by a X%. wont be OP against scrubs (less ap/sp so taken by vindication)

Thats pretty much what I was pitching. Reduces AP and SP by 20% would be a fair amount, nothing game breaking. We need SOMETHING against healers. It's a joke trying to kill one, even the bad ones can /lol you and walk away.


And lets be honest here. 20% less AP/SP doesn't mean 20% less output, more like 12-15%. Is it really that much to ask for?

[iktankniet]

Thats pretty much what I was pitching. Reduces AP and SP by 20% would be a fair amount, nothing game breaking. We need SOMETHING against healers. It's a joke trying to kill one, even the bad ones can /lol you and walk away.


And lets be honest here. 20% less AP/SP doesn't mean 20% less output, more like 12-15%. Is it really that much to ask for?

i think 20% is too much. imagine 4000 ap - 20% = 800 AP less. think that might be too much. less SP will be taken since it's not as high as AP. 2000 SP - 20% = 400SP less for casters.

[Mysmere]

i imagine new vindication will have the same ap reduc of an untalented demo shout etc etc. so theirs will still be better. possibly

[gryffin]

Just a thought, but is it not possible that it is meant for Prot pallies to take to try and lower the damage done to them, it is in a place in the tree that is easily accessible to tanks,


Maybe the change was put in because pally tanks were taking to much damage, because of lack of cool downs and such.


Like was stated above, ret's are not having huge issues with melee, except maybe DK's who can kite us, but with casters/ range so why give us this "buff" for pvp.

[Ronark]

lowering AP/SP by a X%. wont be OP against scrubs (less ap/sp so taken by vindication)

The thing is, World mobs don't use SP as a stat. but then we would have the minus AP for them still.

[Unholyground]

A free AP debuff when you attack is nothing to cry about, no other class gets that.

[Ronark]

A free AP debuff when you attack is nothing to cry about, no other class gets that.

Its not that we GET the debuff, its that we don't GET a debuff we need; a minus AP debuff is one we don't need.

[Unholyground]

Its not that we GET the debuff, its that we don't GET a debuff we need; a minus AP debuff is one we don't need.

Well stamina/intellect reduction was op, even as a paladin I agreed with that for the longest time, an AP reduction is nice to have as a proc on hit ability, If they made it a 1 point talent then there would be less QQ I think.

[amk]

Well according to the front page, Vindication will reduce AP by 23/46, and is applied via Melee attacks.

So, for 2 talent points I can decrease the AP of my target by 46.

Someone please hold me, as I'm about to faint from the uberness of this awesome buff. I couldn't imagine Vindication being redesigned in a better fashion, and kudos to Blizz for their amazing efforts.

[shiftynou]

Well according to the front page, Vindication will reduce AP by 23/46, and is applied via Melee attacks.

So, for 2 talent points I can decrease the AP of my target by 46.

Someone please hold me, as I'm about to faint from the uberness of this awesome buff. I couldn't imagine Vindication being redesigned in a better fashion, and kudos to Blizz for their amazing efforts.

It's clearly a mistype and it will actually reduce AP by 2300/4600.

[amk]

It's clearly a mistype and it will actually reduce AP by 2300/4600.

Would you like some cream for your sphincter? Walking around butthurt all the time can't be comfortable.

[shiftynou]

Would you like some cream for your sphincter? Walking around butthurt all the time can't be comfortable.

Easy man, I'm on your side :[.