Ret Paladins are not needed in a 25 man raid, correct?

[shono99]

Assuming you have a Protection Paladin, and a Holy Paladin in the raid, WHY do you need a Ret Paladin?

Attack Power Buff (Flat Add): Battle Shout, Blessing of Might
Percentage Haste Increase (All Types): Improved Moonkin Aura, Swift Retribution
Percentage Damage Increase: Ferocious Inspiration, Sanctified Retribution
Critical Strike Chance Taken Debuff (All types): Heart of the Crusader, Totem of Wrath
Stat Multiplier Buff: Blessing of Kings

The Holy Paladin uses Kings, and the Protection Paladin has Blessing of Sanctuary, way more reliable than Grace.

Moonkins have 3% haste, Sanctified Retribution is more reliable than Ferocious Inspiration so that may be the only use.

Everything else is replable, and a GOOD Rogue, Warlock, Shadow Priest, or Mage will beat a good Ret Paladin any day of the week. Not to mention 3 of those four classes have range.

[Dulba]

We don't even take ret paladins unless we overload on healer and our paly healer wants to go ret. We have one somewhere in the guild though.

[Mahadev]

If you NEEDED every spec of every class you wouldn't get too far in 25man raids now would you? 10 classes X 3 specs = 30.

The whole point of 'Bring the player not the class' is so that you can get the same buffs from different classes.

[Bananengurke]

any day of the week.

my favorite catch phrase right there


and yes, i can only repeat what peopel said before me:
You can't make every specc manditory for a 25 man raid, and blizz made it so that if you are trying to set up a 25 man group and you happen to not have a pally, the shamans will bring the exact same buffs

[Whoopzz]

my favorite catch phrase right there


and yes, i can only repeat what peopel said before me:
You can't make every specc manditory for a 25 man raid, and blizz made it so that if you are trying to set up a 25 man group and you happen to not have a pally, the shamans will bring the exact same buffs

Except totems are better...

[Eudaimonia]

No spec is mandatory, but most serious 25 man raids consider all buffs mandatory.


This is really, really old news TBH. Use some common sense, connect the dots, and realize that no spec at this point in the game has a safe place in any raid just by virtue of being what it is. Not rets, not rogues, not protadins or even DK's or anything else.

My raid considers our ret paladin to be absolutely vital, because he is our choice to bring some of those buffs, because he is an extremely solid player, because while "any of blah blah blah classes can top him" on a patchwerk style fight, he still does extremely well on certain niche fights, and yadda yadda yadda.

Maybe ret paladins aren't vital to your raid, but it isn't a trend and it isn't a general truth.

[LrdPhoenix]

Nope.

You also don't need:

Protection,Fury, or Arms Warriors
Holy, Disc, or Shadow Priests
Arcane, Fire, or Frost Mages
Destro, Aff, or Demo Warlocks
Assassination, Combat, or Subtlety Rogues
Balance, Resto, or Feral Druids
Enhance, Elemental, or Resto Shamans
Marksman, Survival, or BM Hunters
Frost, Blood, or Unholy Death Knights
or Prot, Holy, and of course Ret Paladins

But you do need some combination of the above, whoever can fill the specific needed rolls, but there is no need for any one specific class or spec, unless a fight specifically requires one for some ability that they only have, such as priests on Razuvious for MC.

[belfpala]

This is really, really old news TBH. Use some common sense, connect the dots, and realize that no spec at this point in the game has a safe place in any raid just by virtue of being what it is. Not rets, not rogues, not protadins or even DK's or anything else.

My raid considers our ret paladin to be absolutely vital, because he is our choice to bring some of those buffs, because he is an extremely solid player, because while "any of blah blah blah classes can top him" on a patchwerk style fight, he still does extremely well on certain niche fights, and yadda yadda yadda.

You've simply bucked the hypothetical. In a situation where all the buffs are present without the ret paladin, you then consider the player and the class that player is bringing. When a GOOD ret paladin is so far behind in almost every fight, and the buffs he's bringing are spoken for, there's not much reason to bring that GOOD ret paladin.

We still bring one ret paladin (me) because I'm part of the cooldown rotation on the tank in certain fights. That's the only reason I get brought.

[shono99]

If you NEEDED every spec of every class you wouldn't get too far in 25man raids now would you? 10 classes X 3 specs = 30.

The whole point of 'Bring the player not the class' is so that you can get the same buffs from different classes.

It takes skill to be the top DPS. You have to know how to gear your class once you get hit/expertise capped.

Do Warlocks stack spellpower? Absolutely, however Haste and Crit are also very important as Haste outputs more damage in a shorter amount of time, shortens the global cooldown(Conflag, COD, Backdrafted Incinerates, Immolate), all of which can easily get under 1.3 seconds with a decent amount of haste. Even Ret Paladins make use of haste, even though stacking attack power is most important, as they use a ton of global cooldowns to get their abilities out faster.

But if you want your 1.5 second spells to cast at 1 second, you need around 40% spell haste. It's not unobtainable, but not practical unless you stack haste/hit

[AfterDinnerPayback]

Be happy!

[Fablewynd]

There's also Judgements, either Light or Wisdom. If you have a Tankadin with you, then you will likely have one of them up. The Ret paladin can bring the other. Sure, the Holydin can bring the one that the Ret brings, but I dare say it won't have half as much up time as the Ret's would.

C
x

[amk]

After 3.2, you won't even need a Ret for OP JoL procs. If PvE damage isn't ramped up to keep pace with DKs, Warriors, and Shamans, Rets will be losing their spots to any Raid with 2 or more Paladins.

[belfpala]

It takes skill to be the top DPS. You have to know how to gear your class once you get hit/expertise capped.

Do Warlocks stack spellpower? Absolutely, however Haste and Crit are also very important as Haste outputs more damage in a shorter amount of time, shortens the global cooldown(Conflag, COD, Backdrafted Incinerates, Immolate), all of which can easily get under 1.3 seconds with a decent amount of haste. Even Ret Paladins make use of haste, even though stacking attack power is most important, as they use a ton of global cooldowns to get their abilities out faster.

But if you want your 1.5 second spells to cast at 1 second, you need around 40% spell haste. It's not unobtainable, but not practical unless you stack haste/hit

I gear myself properly. I can FCFS in my sleep. Even so, I wouldn't take me to a raid if we didn't need one of my cooldowns on a couple fight. Nobody cares about my "OP" JoL (it just makes the real healers overheal). Nobody cares about my buffs. Other than Kings, they come from other classes, and Kings comes from the prot or holy pally. It comes down to DPS plain and simple. And honestly, ret paladins aren't keeping up.

[Requital]

Assuming you have a Protection Paladin, and a Holy Paladin in the raid, WHY do you need a Ret Paladin?

Attack Power Buff (Flat Add): Battle Shout, Blessing of Might
Percentage Haste Increase (All Types): Improved Moonkin Aura, Swift Retribution
Percentage Damage Increase: Ferocious Inspiration, Sanctified Retribution
Critical Strike Chance Taken Debuff (All types): Heart of the Crusader, Totem of Wrath
Stat Multiplier Buff: Blessing of Kings

The Holy Paladin uses Kings, and the Protection Paladin has Blessing of Sanctuary, way more reliable than Grace.

Moonkins have 3% haste, Sanctified Retribution is more reliable than Ferocious Inspiration so that may be the only use.

Everything else is replable, and a GOOD Rogue, Warlock, Shadow Priest, or Mage will beat a good Ret Paladin any day of the week. Not to mention 3 of those four classes have range.

Until 3.2 when they fix JoL a Ret Paladin can provide the spot that a healer is in allowing you to take another DPS to up the raid DPS and that is what I would suggest not to mention JoW is gooda s well. I see a lot of guilds running with 2 Ret JoL/JoW that is also what we do and it allows for slightly better DPS.

[BDF]

An extra Divine Sacrifice, Divine Intervention, and some nice dps on fights that require everyone to be moving.

Rets tend to shine in fights where there is alot of raid motion because they can burst and have a nice mixture of ranged an melee attacks.

edit:
Though as said before, not needed

[Merander]

This thread makes me sad =(

[Acquilae]

You've simply bucked the hypothetical. In a situation where all the buffs are present without the ret paladin, you then consider the player and the class that player is bringing. When a GOOD ret paladin is so far behind in almost every fight, and the buffs he's bringing are spoken for, there's not much reason to bring that GOOD ret paladin.

We still bring one ret paladin (me) because I'm part of the cooldown rotation on the tank in certain fights. That's the only reason I get brought.

A good ret paladin does competitive DPS in every encounter. You're just terrible if you think you're good and yet "so far behind in almost every fight".

[vonstein]

looks like were going back to prebc ret again /sigh
:'((they didnt exist)

[Deleted]

It seems that many people especially from "raiding guilds" are still stuck at Vanilla or TBC. Wake up, Wrath is here and paladins hit just as hard as anyone else. Assuming they are not alts of yours who have never even been played seriously, but instead just to pretend that you know paladins well enough to justify your bullshit and hatred towards the class. Like those people who acquire a Ph.D and right after that reject all of their education to spam their own old opinions behind their paper.

You're just terrible if you think you're good and yet "so far behind in almost every fight".

^

[Perunding]

i was once top effective heal in hodir 25 man fight as a ret. 800-900 heal per attack will help ur healer and raid. JoL ftw