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  1. #21
    I am Murloc!
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    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Strykzor haven't played his priest for 4 months, never been to Ulduar, and never done hardmodes, so don't bother talking to him. He'll get himself banned again soon.

    (If I did the Math right its ~9%)
    8.6, but I prefer 11% to cover the GCDs better.

    we can mc on Thorim(the mced mob does around 7k dps)
    My guild going to test out the mana burn stategy on thorim next week, I think that's more efficient than Mind Control (Lose your Illusion)

  2. #22
    I am Murloc!
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    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    @Worshaka

    http://clausjoergensen.dk/media/files/spellhaste.png

    If you know anything of maths, you'd know it's not a linear function.

  3. #23

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    My guild going to test out the mana burn stategy on thorim next week, I think that's more efficient than Mind Control (Lose your Illusion)
    What mana burn strategy? Never heard from that.

    TTT: So I get only with Raidbuffs (8%) and a little Haste my preferable 2.75s cast? hmhm. Ok we need more coz of the little Lag :/

  4. #24

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    Strykzor haven't played his priest for 4 months, never been to Ulduar, and never done hardmodes, so don't bother
    Actually I have.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Barthilas&n=Strykie

  5. #25
    I am Murloc!
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    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Not on your priest, thus your opinion is worthless.

  6. #26

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    as for haste and crit issue...well, imho it all depend on our game style...
    i tend to prefer crit too...when i have a decent choice ofc...not when the difference is way to big...
    A for the cap...it's already proved that we don't have any kind of cap...there are some "sweet spot", that are screwed up the first movement we need to do, so making a right calculation of the haste required to have a "rotation" is completely useless

    As for the gear u're wearing and no hardmode ( that is similar to my situation..even if i'm unluky as hell with trinket :P )...
    have u checked the craftable crit boot ? they don't seem a gimp on your stat...and u're going to have some more crit too ofc.

    There could also be the possibility to use the crafted crit belt..and cap that 39 hit in some other way ( u're overcapped u know )
    12 hit could be taken swapping your emeral signet ring with hodir normalmode ring ( frozen loop, that ofc is better than your )..leaving you with 29 hit missing that need to worked out

    As for leg ( but this is a gimp ) you can change them with the conquest badge one..if u rly want more crit....but ofc, as u know, is not the best choice prob.

    btw, i'm interested about this "mana burning strat" on thorim...
    can you elaborate it, or give a link where someone talk about it...
    i checked on wow.com and elitist but can't find anything about that

    sorry for bad english...not my native lang

  7. #27
    I am Murloc!
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    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    as for haste and crit issue...well, imho it all depend on our game style...
    Not when we're talking 700 haste, then it's not about playstyle anymore.

    I also enjoy playing with 4-500 haste, but it's so high atm. that I fear it's not giving me a high enough dps increase for the value of the stats.

    There could also be the possibility to use the crafted crit belt
    Would be stupid, you'll eventually need the hit belt, and I don't plan to waste 6 runed orbs on a piece of gear I'll never use.

    In regards to your other suggested pieces, I much want new rings, but alas, they never drop. And my legs and boots are hard to replace, since the versions with crit less spellpower as well, making it look like a bad downgrade.

    btw, i'm interested about this "mana burning strat" on thorim...
    Not before I tried it myself.

    Forums is something, but IRC is where the dark secrets of the world is truely being discussed.

  8. #28

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...hisper&n=Cleir

    I often find myself waiting for MB to CD with 0.1 secs left when my flays finish and I don't have much haste at all. I've never geared for haste if I have the option for crit. I only just swapped my lost jewel ring for the hit one because of our slacking draenai's I can't count on the hit aura atm, but I've been sitting close to 30% raid buffed crit rating sometimes.

    Now with the 4pc bonus it's even less of a need I find... Even if you count those shorter VT casts, etc. I still find myself waiting for MB to cooldown with not enough time to do anything else without throwing my rotation out the window.

    any advice on my gear choices, etc?

  9. #29

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    well, 650/700 haste ( if u mean with devious mind up ofc ) is where 99% of the shadowpriest are sitting ( ulduar geared ofc...btu we are talking to 4x t8 so is obvious )....and rly, i don't find it as a decreese of dps....i saw my dps go up when i took the 4rth part of my t8.

    if you mean stack 700 haste without devious mind...that's only stupid imho..and u finish gimping your stat

    Considering that i normaly read that u're a "perfectionist" ( i hope the word is right ) of min/maxing...
    well...orb on my realm go nearly at 1k gold each...and don't tell me that u as a shadowpriest ahve any gold issue...
    so 10k gold for minmaxing can be an option...

    and to give a responce in "Nezoia style"....if you think that using 10k gold for minmaxing is worthless...then nothing to discuss :P ( joking ofc...)

    as for the strat...ok but please elaborate it when you finished trying it
    i'm curious :P

    as for leg...i told it too..."if u rly want some crit ( but this is a gimp )"..

    as for boot well.....it's true that u have 9 less spellpower...but is also true that you have 2x gem...i don't see ti as a gimp on stat ( one red gem for -7 spellpower and -12 haste..-7 cause i'm lookign at the socket bonus too ofc )

    http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45483

    http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45567

  10. #30

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    Well, the most obvious reason is that haste is exponential. So it WILL be less worth per point the more you get of it.
    I think you took a wrong turn somewhere. Your nifty little diagram on calculating real cast time isn't really relevant to calculating the relationship between haste and dps. If your diagram were linear it would be possible to have 0 second casts with 100% haste -- and of course we all know that haste doesn't work like that; 100% haste would give you twice the amount of casts, i.e. a 100% dps increase.

    I took the liberty to type down some simple math to help you understand:
    0% haste: Mind Flay tick 1000 damage per 1 second, 1000 dps
    1% haste: Mind Flay tick 1000 damage per ~0.99 seconds, 1010 dps, 1% dps increase
    2% haste: Mind Flay tick 1000 damage per ~0.98 seconds, 1020 dps, 2% dps increase
    10% haste: Mind Flay tick 1000 damage per ~0.909 seconds, 1100 dps, 10% dps increase
    20% haste: Mind Flay tick 1000 damage per ~0.833 seconds, 1200 dps, 20% dps increase
    50% haste: Mind Flay tick 1000 damage per ~0.666 seconds, 1500 dps, 50% dps increase

    I even made a diagram since that seems to be popular:

    See, quite the linear relationship.

    Now I got to thinking. Maybe you were referring to the idea that 1% haste gives you a 1% dps increase if you had 0% haste, but less of a dps increase if you were already sitting at high haste. This is correct. There is nothing magical about this however, crit functions the exact same way. Allow me to demonstrate:

    0% haste: Mind Flay tick 1000 damage per 1 second, 1000 dps
    1% haste: Mind Flay tick 1000 damage per 0.99 seconds, 1010dps
    1% dps increase

    50% haste: Mind Flay tick 1000 damage per 0.6666 seconds, 1500dps
    51% haste: Mind Flay tick 1000 damage per 0.6622 seconds, 1510dps
    0.666% dps increase

    0% crit: 100 Mind Flay tick hits + 0 Mind Flay tick crits, 100*1000 damage = 100 000 damage (over 100 seconds) => 1000 dps
    1% crit: 99 Mind Flay tick hits + 1 Mind Flay tick crits, 99*1000 + 1*2000 damage = 101 000 damage (over 100 seconds) => 1010 dps
    1% dps increase

    50% crit: 50 Mind Flay tick hits + 50 Mind Flay tick crits, 50*1000 + 50*2000 damage = 150 000 damage (over 100 seconds) => 1500 dps
    51% crit: 49 Mind Flay tick hits + 51 Mind Flay tick crits, 49*1000 + 51*2000 damage = 151 000 damage (over 100 seconds) => 1510 dps
    0.666% dps increase


    So what did we learn from this? Both haste and crit scale linearly. 1% of haste or crit is worth the same amount of dps no matter how much of it you have already (excluding the real soft cap of 1 second global cooldown, of course, which is 1268.97 haste rating with moonkin aura and a wrath of air totem).

  11. #31
    I am Murloc!
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    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    That doesn't make the value of haste in terms of decreasing cast a linear function. The function stays exponential.

    New Casting Time = (Base Casting Time)/(1 + (% Spell Haste / 100))


  12. #32

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    That doesn't make the value of haste in terms of decreasing cast a linear function. The function stays exponential.

    New Casting Time = (Base Casting Time)/(1 + (% Spell Haste / 100))
    Oh, I know. You seem to have confused the fact that the function to calculate real cast time is exponential with how haste is related to dps.

  13. #33
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    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Yon
    Oh, I know. You seem to have confused the fact that the function to calculate real cast time is exponential with how haste is related to dps.
    The cast time is relevant, since there is downtimes. Your diagram between haste and dps is only valid if you don't clip Mind Flay for better spells.

    So again, only valid in stationary fights. You won't get a linear dps increase of haste if you keep stacking it to you hit the GCD cap.

  14. #34

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    The cast time is relevant, since there is downtimes. Your diagram between haste and dps is only valid if you don't clip Mind Flay for better spells.
    Of course, my diagram was an utter simplification to point out your glaring error. I hope you admit your earlier statement was blatantly wrong.

  15. #35
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    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    No, since I've always talked about cast-times, which is the relevant part. (I never said this, or dps, explicit, so it's called CONTEXT, and you misunderstood it).

    I don't bother to do EJ like maths with the solo purpose of theorycraft for no good purpose.

  16. #36

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    No, since I've always talked about cast-times, which is the relevant part. (I never said this, or dps, explicit, so it's called CONTEXT, and you misunderstood it).

    I don't bother to do EJ like maths with the solo purpose of theorycraft for no good purpose.
    Go back and read what I originally quoted from you. I believe it was "Well, the most obvious reason is that haste is exponential. So it WILL be less worth per point the more you get of it.". This is the statement I reacted to, since it's obviously in error and it's what underlies this entire thread.

    I went on to demonstrate that haste in fact is not worth less per point the more you get of it, at least not as a consequence of your totally irrelevant real cast time calculation diagram.

  17. #37
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    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Yes, and that statement was written in the context of a the cast time. It's you being silly and trying to model DPS, something we all know is not possible due to very many factors.

    And my diagram was just to illustrate that it IS a exponential function, since he didn't believe the function was exponential.

    But, overall good job, contributing nothing to the discussion about there's a cap for how much haste we should obtain, before down rating the value to almost nothing. I doubt stacking haste to the GCD cap will be better than stacking haste to 50%

  18. #38

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    My "model" was not meant to accurately model shadowpriest dps, but simply to point out where you went wrong in your thinking. There is no way to take your statement out of context, you said plain and simple that haste was worth less per point the more you get of it because it's an exponential function. I demonstrated that it's worth the same per point no matter how much you have, and now you try to squirm out of admitting your error?

    Normally I wouldn't be so confrontational but it's disheartening to see someone with 4000+ posts spreading misinformation on the priest forums.

    I thought Worshaka explained it quite concisely but since you didn't seem to get it I had to pitch in. This is quite basic theorycrafting after all.

  19. #39
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    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    Yes, and in terms of casting speed, haste is worth less per point over time, due to it being exponential, and not linear.

    That's not misunderstanding, that's basic math. 0-1% haste increases the cast-time speed more than 19-20%.

  20. #40

    Re: Shadow Haste Cap

    I don't play a shadow priest, but a elemental shaman. We have a similar problem: Fitting lightning bolts in between lava burst CDs. My experience with haste ist the following:
    At high amounts of haste, coupled with low cast times to begin with, you gain only fractions of a second per % haste. Unfortunately, things like network lag + reaction times stay roughly constant (say, 150 ms lag + 100 ms reaction time).
    So there will be a point at which you start to feel that more haste doesn't help you that much anymore, but that is not because of haste becoming worse per point (mathematically), but because of limiting factors like lag and reaction time.
    Those do vary from person to person, of course.

    Just my 2c there...

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