Replinshment Nerf & Mp5 Buff Discussion. Priest perspective.

[[-Spiritus-]]

Haven't seen a thread on this yet.

Replenishment is going from 0.25% a sec to 1% per 5sec. Essentially a 20% nerf to this ability.

Mp5 from gear will be increased by 25%.

With these changes, what will be the best mathematical model for regen in 3.2?

I'm looking for those folks on this forum that will help break down the raw numbers w/ me. No anecdotal responses please.

[derevka]

http://zusterke.orderoftheathanor.eu...&mp=mp&ssp=ssp

Zusterke did a great tool to figure that out. http://twitter.com/Zusterke

Holy is gonna be about a wash (with full Ulduar gear)... Disc will abandon Spirit.

[[-Spiritus-]]

Perfect. Thanks.

[Danner]

Derevka posted a very good link, but it's unfairly skewed in disfavor of intellect, as the formula doesn't include

- Shadowfiend
- Hymn of Hope
- Manatide totem (every raid has a shaman in the healer group these days)
- Arcane Torrent (if blood elf)

If used on every cooldown, the shadowfiend is worth about 0.12 MP5 per point of intellect, manatide is worth 0.06 MP5 per point of intellect, and arcane torrent another 0.0375. Considering that replenishment in 3.2 is worth 0.15 MP5 per point of intellect, that's hardly neglible numbers if added up, even if not using them on every cooldown. Hymn of hope is very hard to model, and while gaining boosts from both int and spirit regen, it's gaining way more from int than spirit.

That said, int still comes very favorably out in the comparison listed on the site. Basically, no matter which spec you go with, int is the king regen stat, but MP5 isn't that bad either. Holy priests will get around 0.4-0.5 MP5 per point of spirit, which is subpar to both int and MP5 (in 3.2), but it's still worth taking since we get spellpower from it.

Keep in mind that 1 MP5 is now costing as much as 2 regular stats. My rule of thumb goes as follows, check out the excellent calculator for better numbers.

Holy:
For regen...
2 int = 1 MP5 = 2 spirit
but MP5 does not give other benefits (crit or spellpower)

Disc:
For regen...
2 int > 1 MP5 > 2 spirit
Int is the king of regen and gives crit to boot, MP5 isn't bad but gives nothing else, spirit is just bad.

[[-Spiritus-]]

Derevka posted a very good link, but it's unfairly skewed in disfavor of intellect, as the formula doesn't include

I first thought of this when I saw it, but you can include those things in the "% of regen bonus on manapool" field. Take the %mana pool returned * CD / length of fight.

for instance Mana tide gives back 24%mana with a 5min CD on a 6min fight:

.33%=[.24*5]/360 (NOTE: This is his formula)

Input this into the "% of regen bonus on manapool" field and it factors this in.
Do the same for all others like HoH and SF and add it all together.

When I factored in 1 MT totem and 1 SF, INT came out on top for my current stats, with Mp5 a close second, with SPI 3rd. However, SPI was the most "efficient" when including SP from SA.

[derevka]

I strongly suggest posting this over at PlusHeal as I know the developer of that page would love the feedback.

[Danner]

Spiritusvex: Ooh, you can indeed. I was kinda wondering about what that field was good for... but doesn't that increase all regen, including spirit?

Derevka: I guess I should make a plusheal account someday... humm.

[[-Spiritus-]]

Spiritusvex: Ooh, you can indeed. I was kinda wondering about what that field was good for... but doesn't that increase all regen, including spirit?

Nope, just the effects that give mana back based on a % of mana pool. SPI & Mp5 don't factor into mana pool, ergo it only weights for INT.

I strongly suggest posting this over at PlusHeal as I know the developer of that page would love the feedback.

Argh, but then I'd have to check two forums.... i'll think about it. =)

[bigjenk]

spirit will still be king for holy and disc... well once you have the gear for disc you dont need a specific type of regen cuz int is king anyway nothing is changing there(specially for be's gogo 10k extra mana from racial)

[Kelesti]

Hmmm. This got me thinking. Looks like I have some work to do for my own numbers.
Insert number crunching here...

And bigjenk, 10k's a little skewed, even at a 10 minute fight. When was the last time you had one of those?

[ainra]

I am very confused. I apparently fail at this thing >.<

Could someone explain how I get the different numbers? Mainly, % of Spirit and Intellect bonus... what does this mean exactly? And % of regen bonus on manapool? I think my brain is fried, not sure why this isn't making sense at the moment.

Thanks for any help!

[[-Spiritus-]]

I am very confused. I apparently fail at this thing >.<

Could someone explain how I get the different numbers? Mainly, % of Spirit and Intellect bonus... what does this mean exactly? And % of regen bonus on manapool? I think my brain is fried, not sure why this isn't making sense at the moment.

Thanks for any help!

% of regen while casting: Talents like Meditation. Standard priest build would have this number at 50.

% of Holy Concentration: Your average uptime of HC. Your playstyle/crit bonus will make this a variable number. Consult WWS/WoL logs to get an accurate number for a given boss fight.

% of time spent in FSR: Best guess this one. The program creator suggests 90% for Holy priests. I would tend to agree with this.

% of time with replenishment: Again, consult WWS/WoL logs to get an accurate number. It will be somewhere between 80-95%.

% of spirit bonus: The multiplier for SPI from talents and buffs. Generally 15.5% for holy priest (SoR+BoK).

% of intellect bonus: The multiplier for INT from talents and buffs. Generally 10% for holy priests (BoK).

% of regen bonus on manapool: This is the most confusing data field. In fact, it was so confusing, I had to look up a post from the creator of this app to get the formula. I could explain it, or I could say if you use SF at least once a fight, input 0.7. If you usually run with a resto shaman and receive a Mana Tide totem add an additional 0.4 for a total of 1.1. HoH is also a factor, but results may vary for this, so toss in an extra .3 for 1.4. Recap: if you use SF, MT, and HoH once in a fight, insert 1.4 into this field.

Everything else is pretty self explanatory. Remember to factor in your *raid buffed* int & spi when consulting the chart (DS, AI, MotW, BoK, etc).

spirit will still be king for holy and disc... well once you have the gear for disc you dont need a specific type of regen cuz int is king anyway nothing is changing there(specially for be's gogo 10k extra mana from racial)

While I appreciate your enthusiasm in voicing your opinion, I would suggest starting a different thread for general discussion and anecdotal response. I would like to keep this thread to hard numbers only.

EDIT: Updated stats.

[ainra]

<3 Thank you!

[G l o w y r m]

http://zusterke.orderoftheathanor.eu...5&ex=1.4&mp=mp

Is my table...

I'm a little confused about one thing. At 1300 int and 800 spr, +50 mp5 is better, but at 1300int and 900spr, 100int is better. Why does adding 100 spirit make int better than mp5 at that point? I'm probably missing something, thanks.

EDIT**Thanks for the answers!

Zusterke, this is an awesome tool, we appreciate it very much! Thanks Spiritus for bringing up this topic up.

[Zusterke]

That would be the spirit/intellect regen. It works with both intellect and spirit. Hence, boosting intellect increases the regen value of spirit and spirit increases the regen value of intellect. For Disc priests this is but a small portion of their intellect regen value but it's a part of your regen none the less.

A few remarks/tips to some calculations shown here:
- Blessing of Kings and talent based stat increase works multiplicatively. This brings BoK + SoR to a 15.5% spirit bonus, BoK+Enlightment a 16.6% spi bonus, BoK+Mental Strength to a 26.5% int bonus
- FSR depends on the fight and playstyle, but I recommend sticking to 90% FSR for holies. The documentation on the tool needs an update 85% is more realistic for 3.0 when we still had clearcasting. 90% is likely to give a better indication of your regen. For Disc priests I would aim at 90% or 95% since tankhealing tends to have fewer breaks in the healing.

For Disc priests, assuming a Rapture proc every 15 secs, shadowfiend, 85% Replenishment ticks, 90% FSR, Enlightment, Mental Strength and BoK, this puts us at:
http://zusterke.orderoftheathanor.eu...&ex=1.83&mp=mp
We see that int totally dominates the model (and this increases if you include totem, HoH etc). However, since we are interested in how mp5 and spirit evolve to one another we can take away a few manapool based regens:
http://zusterke.orderoftheathanor.eu...26.5&ex=&mp=mp
This doesn't give an accurate value of intellect but it reveals the relation between mp5 and spirit for disc priests. We can see that spirit is gone. Especially if you consider that the 'int value' you see is 'base int', thus 1800 int = 2277 intellect if buffed with talents and BoK.

For Holy priests we can make a different observation, assuming BoK, SoR, 90% FSR, Fiend, 85%Replenishment, 20% Holy Concentration:
http://zusterke.orderoftheathanor.eu...=10&ex=1&mp=mp
This reveals that low spirit and high intellect gives the best regen. It also shows that, if you have such a ratio, MP5 flattens spirit in terms of regen.

Is spirit still worth it? It can be if we include the SP value of spirit through spiritual guidance:
http://zusterke.orderoftheathanor.eu...&mp=mp&ssp=ssp
We can see that for 1000 int(=1100 int raidbuffed) and 1000spi (=1155 spi raidbuffed), the spellpower bonus of spirit makes it a worthy stat even though in terms of regen it is weaker. Keep in mind that at this point spirit (+ the spellpower it gives) and intellect rival MP5 in value... but you just invested a whole lot of talents to get to that point:
- Holy Concentration
- Meditation
- SoR
- Spiritual Guidance

Effectively this means that the following build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcZf...i0GeuAo:md0zVc
Combined with equivalent gear (iLvl) but stacking MP5 and gemming for SP instead could have the same amount of SP and regen in combat. Needless to say, that build has increased throughput and survivability compared to a holy build stacking all those spirit talents.

However, as the turning point is 1000 int and 1000 spirit, we can also expect that the spirit talents increase in value as the stats increase. I think (no numbers on this yet) that end Ulduar raiders or 3.2 raiders will have enough stats to make the typical holy build with spirit talents the best choice again.

In short: it seems MP5+int is the best gear for holy priests starting to raid but it will pay off to switch to spi+int gear when progressing through ulduar.

[[-Spiritus-]]

@ Zusterke:

(1) Yup, I failed at the maths. The stat multipliers are indeed multiplicative.

(2) Is there anyway to make the "% of regen bonus on manapool" more user friendly (aka less mathy)? Like a way to input a number in a text box for a certain mana return ability, along with a number for the length of the fight?

Something like this:

[1] Hymn of Hope
[1] Shadowfiend
[2] Mana Tide Totem
[8] Length of Encounter in Minutes

Then just build your formula into this short form? I'm not certain how much of a pain in the ass that would be to code, but it would certainly make this part of the app easier to use.

(3) Have you considered including a check box to calculate if INT could be the "most efficient stat" because it provides %crit along with regen? This could be a very useful tool for Disco priests, though I doubt it would eclipse SG for holy priests.

Oh, and my chart for giggles: http://zusterke.orderoftheathanor.eu...0&ex=1.4&mp=mp

[G l o w y r m]

Should this get a sticky? At least for the duration of 3.2.

[Zusterke]

@SpiritusVex
(2) shouldn't be much of a problem. The design was built to have more leeway on that department.
(3) is a bit more difficult since I didn't wrote the coloring design so elegantly but I'll see what I can do.

[congloxx]

First of all thanks a lot for this high quality thread, and for the great calculator.

A couple of questions:

1. Regarding Crit from Int - if the calculation indeed does not include the Crit % benefit from Int, then i suppose the "Pink" department where spirit is more "effective" may need to actually shift in favor of Int or even out the SP benefit from spirit, what do you guys think?

2. Regarding combining SF with HoH - i have recently read somewhere about buffing the regen from the SF by popping HoH immediately after SF, so that the SF will now return a percentage of the higher mana pool provided by HoH. My experience with it so far is that it does provide you with more mana but prevents you from using HoH later in the fight. However HoH in itself isn't that great for various reasons (low mana return and channeling time) and i haven't noticed its absence later on in those fights. What's your take on this and how could this be modeled?


As a side note, regarding the % of time Holy Concentration is active - i have about 35% average for high spammy fights like XT hard mode, Ignis timed fight, Mimiron, etc, where regen plays a more critical role and the danger of going OOM is higher.

[Zusterke]

@congloxx: Some excellent suggestions and most of them can be answered with that 'extra' field. For example a 8 minute fight, where you pop your fiend twice, the first with HoH active gives:
- 60% * 120% = 72% mana
- 60% = 60% mana

Good for a total of:
- 132% over 8 minutes or: 1.375% as mp5.

Combined with 35% HC uptime you get:
http://zusterke.orderoftheathanor.eu...&mp=mp&ssp=ssp

I included the extra field mainly for such calculations. What if the fiend is used twice? What if you use HoH at the same time? What if you use when bloodlust is up? The list of options tends to be longer than userfriendlyness allows

As for the crit value of intellect, it is definitely worth adding. Still, I'm in doubt. My calculator values the crit and spell power from int and spirit for 100%. I'm not sure that line of thought is entirely correct.