Question about prot pala from an other tank

[Prentice]

Wall of text not necessary.

-He doesn't read about his class
-Has no idea how to gem, glyph or spec. Making every socket bonus is all the proof you need.
-Shouldn't be placed in any type of tanking roll until he decides to care about what he's doing.

BTW: His Block Value is 1730. But he's clearly not very bright because he is stacking BV and doesn't use the BV meta gem. Get a new prot pally. One that can think and read.

[thegreatheed]

he's way better off from a threat/dps perspective by dropping "seals of the pure" and "divinity" and getting convinction+crusade, it's been pretty much "theorycrafted".

it's been pretty much determined that divinity is pretty useless.

also, what others have said. pallys should not be gemming for parry or expertise. he's better off putting in agi+sta purple gems for red sockets.

and from a diminishing returns perspective...agi will do more than straight dodge.

your pally needs to do some research on his class. no top end guild would take him the way he's going.

Conviction is much more useless than divinity.

Why?

Because we don't need threat. We need survivability. Anything that adds to survivability is better than anything that adds to threat that is not needed. It's like stacking extra BR after 102.4. It's pointless, because it'll never be used. Just like that extra 3% or so threat from conviction is pointless. Noone is within 3% of your threat, thus the threat lead is 100% wasted. Meanwhile, divinity makes a healer's job 5% easier.

I don't know about you, but we're not wiping when I MT because dps pull aggro. When we wipe it's because I die. Thus, anything that affects threat isn't a priority. Anything that affects survivability IS A PRIORITY.

[Draco cracona]

Conviction is much more useless than divinity.

Why?

Because we don't need threat. We need survivability. Anything that adds to survivability is better than anything that adds to threat that is not needed. It's like stacking extra BR after 102.4. It's pointless, because it'll never be used. Just like that extra 3% or so threat from conviction is pointless. Noone is within 3% of your threat, thus the threat lead is 100% wasted. Meanwhile, divinity makes a healer's job 5% easier.

I don't know about you, but we're not wiping when I MT because dps pull aggro. When we wipe it's because I die. Thus, anything that affects threat isn't a priority. Anything that affects survivability IS A PRIORITY.

Survivability>TPS, I agree. The issue is though, that divinity is not going to save you - it's big spikes that kill, not healing throughput generally. Also, that extra TPS is useful, as it allows greater flexibility in GoHoS usage, and that's often the third glyph choice.

[Zoialord]

Well tbh being that Block also cause's a huge chunk of threat for Prot Pallys due to Holy Shield and our ability to get to unhittable it's not really the wrong way to go. As for the spec i spec 5/5 Seals of the pure rather than 5/5 conviction, there was a huge argument about this but SoTP is +15% damage on Judgement and our main tanking seal all the time, Conviction is a Crit talent and only works on our crits... now you can argue the point till your blue in the face but some like myself are more into reliable threat gen than a "chance" to gen more threat through crits.

People play how they feel comfortable, i've tried most the tank build and dont personally like the threat build of the 0/53/18 and varient's. does that make me a bad tank? nope. A lot of people wont go all out on theyre chars unless im tanking and that make's me proud to be trusted.

Getting to the OP though, Parry is something NO Paladin should ever gem for, Dodge beats it hands down. Go read maintankadin about how you should gem.

BV is an Ok stat but not something we stack (although it's nice to see SoTR hit for huge numbers in BV gear lol). Afaik though it's not an optimal stat for us. I spose if you look at it from certain points though.. it has it's advantages, BV increase the damage of our main threat skill (at the moment SoTR hits for 130% of BV) once Block changes in 3.2 it's yet to be seen if the stat will become worse or better. A lot are saying better as although SoTR gets dropped to 100% BV all BV gear is basically being doubled.

If that's your tank advise him to go look at Maintankadin read some of the stickies there and see if any of them fit "His play style" and he can use them, everyone has they're own way of tanking. Don't get into this thing of "Omg he's got points in holy he's shit!!" some like i said go for reliability not chance. Also Pally's at the moment are still Block tanks.

[thegreatheed]

Survivability>TPS, I agree. The issue is though, that divinity is not going to save you - it's big spikes that kill, not healing throughput generally. Also, that extra TPS is useful, as it allows greater flexibility in GoHoS usage, and that's often the third glyph choice.

So, when I'm tanking General without kiting, I'm being hit for 28k through bubble wall. It is currently not possible to reach 56k health through gear for a paladin. Thus it is impossible to reach enough EH to live through 2 consecutive attacks.

So, at my 45k buffed health, - 28k after 1 hit, I am sitting at 17k health. If I am not healed at least 11k in the next 1.5 seconds, I am dead. Having divinity makes me 5% more likely to get that healing. Thus 5% more likely to avoid a worst case scenario. It most assuredly does increase my survivability. The only place where I see large spikes of incoming damage (large enough to 1-shot my health pool) is Council hard mode (and steelbreaker tanking is the least threat sensitive tank assignment in that fight). Every other case of tank death due to damage IS A HEALING THROUGHPUT ISSUE. You are "technically" right that divinity won't save me, but it does make it 5% easier for my healers to save me.

I glyph HoSalv, I use it too, as dps is never within 20% of my threat, even without conviction, sotp, or otherwise.

[gatgat]

Conviction is much more useless than divinity.

Why?

Because we don't need threat. We need survivability. Anything that adds to survivability is better than anything that adds to threat that is not needed. It's like stacking extra BR after 102.4. It's pointless, because it'll never be used. Just like that extra 3% or so threat from conviction is pointless. Noone is within 3% of your threat, thus the threat lead is 100% wasted. Meanwhile, divinity makes a healer's job 5% easier.

I don't know about you, but we're not wiping when I MT because dps pull aggro. When we wipe it's because I die. Thus, anything that affects threat isn't a priority. Anything that affects survivability IS A PRIORITY.

Your dps suck, our your a god of threat. What is your dps pulling?

Our top dps are easily sitting at 7k dps or so on most fights. Throw in a fight like Hodir or Council where they get a damage buff and that goes up to like 10k, so I need every ounce of threat I can get to keep the boss attacking me.

[thegreatheed]

Your dps suck, our your a god of threat. What is your dps pulling?

Our top dps are easily sitting at 7k dps or so on most fights. Throw in a fight like Hodir or Council where they get a damage buff and that goes up to like 10k, so I need every ounce of threat I can get to keep the boss attacking me.

We have several dps on top 20 worldwide charts on WMO and WWS charts. Plenty of them on top 20 US charts.

Even not specced into threat, wearing my max stam gear, I easily outthreat our other tanks. I get the runemaster on hardmode council as first burn target, simply for my threat generation. I'm not going to say I don't get MD's ToTT, or that our dpsers don't vanish/soulshatter/invis/fade, because I/they do, and they should. Why would I spec into threat so they can be lazy? In our guild it's the DPSer's responsibility to manage their threat, and every class capable of pulling aggro has a mechanic to manage that threat. My job as a tank is to FIRST survive, SECOND hold aggro. I'm not going to sacrifice my primary responsibility in order to allow them to be bad.

(and to compare numbers, our top dps do 12-13k on hodir)

[gatgat]

We have several dps on top 20 worldwide charts on WMO and WWS charts. Plenty of them on top 20 US charts.

Even not specced into threat, wearing my max stam gear, I easily outthreat our other tanks. I get the runemaster on hardmode council as first burn target, simply for my threat generation. I'm not going to say I don't get MD's ToTT, or that our dpsers don't vanish/soulshatter/invis/fade, because I/they do, and they should. Why would I spec into threat so they can be lazy? In our guild it's the DPSer's responsibility to manage their threat, and every class capable of pulling aggro has a mechanic to manage that threat. My job as a tank is to FIRST survive, SECOND hold aggro. I'm not going to sacrifice my primary responsibility in order to allow them to be bad.

right now I am specced 53/18 and without wings or tricks or md I sit at about 6k-7k tps...on a fight with no buffs whatsoever my dps are sitting at 7k dps...so on a fight like Hodir with singed or Council with the rune of power or vezax with shadow crash they easily shoot up to 10k-11k...im just amazed that without speccing into threat talents you can hold off dps doing that.

Also in our guild its also the tanks job to hold threat. If your sitting at 4k threat per second and the dps rip thats the tanks fault...that threat sucks.

[thegreatheed]

right now I am specced 53/18 and without wings or tricks or md I sit at about 6k-7k tps...on a fight with no buffs whatsoever my dps are sitting at 7k dps...so on a fight like Hodir with singed or Council with the rune of power or vezax with shadow crash they easily shoot up to 10k-11k...im just amazed that without speccing into threat talents you can hold off dps doing that.

Also in our guild its also the tanks job to hold threat. If your sitting at 4k threat per second and the dps rip thats the tanks fault...that threat sucks.

Then your dps needs to stop being lazy. Threat dumps are in the game for a reason. If they pull aggro, it's their fault. They have omen, they need to use it.

I sit at 5-6k sustained. That equates to 8k dps worth of threat, as almost every class has a threat reduction modifier. When dps gets a rune, I pop wings, simple as that. Your dps needs to l2raid. Threat management is an integral part of being a good raid dps

[Prentice]

-thegreatheed

Post an armory link. If I see that you have the Armsman enchant, you lost all credibility.

With the cd's that pallys currently don't have, fighting General and not kiting him with a pally MT is a pretty bad idea. You are praying for survival. Fight the fight as it was intended as opposed to trying to prove that you are something you are not (ie. a DK with way too many cd's).

[gatgat]

On some hard modes where there are very strict raid dps requirements there may not be room to dump threat every time the cd is up. And lots of classes dont have threat modifiers. Our dps rarely rip but they are almost always sitting at 95% of the main tanks threat, and they often sit on top of the tanks threat, and that is with using soul shatter, mirrors, asking for salvs and the like

[gatgat]

-thegreatheed

Post an armory link. If I see that you have the Armsman enchant, you lost all credibility.

With the cd's that pallys currently don't have, fighting General and not kiting him with a pally MT is a pretty bad idea. You are praying for survival. Fight the fight as it was intended as opposed to trying to prove that you are something you are not (ie. a DK with way too many cd's).

Do people actually kite this boss still? We quit that after the first day, we have our warrior tank it and he shield walls every other one with priest/pally cds on the other ones...kiting causes too much lost dps time

[gibborim]

Allright so there is in my guild a prot pala who is stacking BV and SBV ..

He is retarded. Don't let him MT.

Needless wipes are needless.

/thread

[Takwin]

There is a lot of stupidity going on here. I'm not sure where to start. I cringe whenever I see things akin to "whatever feels right" or "this works for me" or anything of the sort. Those things are the opposite of fact and math, and generally not correct.

Let me toss out a few rules to abide by, all backed up with EXTENSIVE math on tankspot.com, elitistjerks.com, and maintankadin.failsafedesign.com.

These go for pallies only, though many of them go for all tanks.

1. NEVER EVER GEM FOR PARRY. The diminishing returns are horrendous, the ilevel budget is bad. It is plain stupid. Don't be that guy.

2. Never gem or enchant for expertise. Only 2 moves are affected. Your gear will get you near the dodge cap, which is more than enough.

3. It is an absolute FACT that conviction+crusade is better than seals of the pure. It is not up for argument at all. (This *may* change in 3.2)

4. Pursuit of Justice is an EXCELLENT talent, useful in many fights, and faster than Tuskar's.

5. You never EVER glyph for consecration, it screws up 969.

6. Vengeance (10 expertise skill), and Divine Plea (3% dmg reduct) are musts. The last major glyph is somewhat optional.

7. Reckoning is the worst threat talent point-for-point that there is. (This *may* change in 3.2)

8. For SERIOUS PROGRESSION MT RAIDING, block rating is horrendous, and block value sucks. Stack stamina, dodge, and armor and make sure you're not threat-capping your dps.

9. Only one point in spiritual attunement is needed. The only fight you could even conceivably have trouble in in Vezax, but I've done it with 1/2 np.

10. THREAT is a serious deal on hard modes, especially Hodir and Vezax. Even with everyone's aggro drop abilities and some salv's, its not enough on its own unless you are very efficient with 969 and are not gimped on gear threat-wise. Right now - 1. Strength, 2. Exp to dodge cap, 3. Hit cap, 4. SBV. (With 3.2, SBV might move to #1 for threat, need more PTR testing).

[Offhand]

Palthazora, you are correct until you reach point #10, hit rating is better then expertise. As you mentioned earlier, exp only effect white hits and HotR.

[saranya]

We have several dps on top 20 worldwide charts on WMO and WWS charts. Plenty of them on top 20 US charts.

Even not specced into threat, wearing my max stam gear, I easily outthreat our other tanks. I get the runemaster on hardmode council as first burn target, simply for my threat generation. I'm not going to say I don't get MD's ToTT, or that our dpsers don't vanish/soulshatter/invis/fade, because I/they do, and they should. Why would I spec into threat so they can be lazy? In our guild it's the DPSer's responsibility to manage their threat, and every class capable of pulling aggro has a mechanic to manage that threat. My job as a tank is to FIRST survive, SECOND hold aggro. I'm not going to sacrifice my primary responsibility in order to allow them to be bad.

(and to compare numbers, our top dps do 12-13k on hodir)

Our threat might be godly but in hard modes, dps can give us a run for our money and quite frankly, it seems like you're saying you are not spec'd at all into conviction or crusade and if that's the case...I don't see how you can tank effectively without holding back your dps.

I'm calling BS on your claim. Provide some armory links for your "top20" dps. Because what you're saying is not adding up.

[saranya]

Dodge+block+parry+35%+(1/16+.956/miss)^-1 using numbers from your charsheet. You don't need a macro for that.

It's worth pointing out that agi gives less avoidance per point than dodge, so dodge is generally the way to go for gems.

Saryana - dodge from agi is added to the dodge total BEFORE DR is applied, thus DR does not factor into agi v dodge.

I might be wrong but I'm just going with the various theory over at maintankadin. buffs do not affect +dodge while with agi, even though it's slightly less than what you get from pure dodges still makes for a good tradeoff, especially when you start to hit around 25% dodge.

[gatgat]

I think the reason people go with agi is that after kings. For 1% dodge it takes around 40 dodge rating or around 52 agility. So that 8 dodge gem is giving you about 0.2% dodge now the 8 agi gem is affected by kings so its actually an 8.8 agi gem so that gem is providing about 0.17% dodge. All of this is pre-DR.

So for straight avoidance dodge is better, but the reason people gem agi is that that 8.8 agi is also giving you 17.6 armor, and .17% crit. So overall the agi provides similar levels of dodge, plus some armor and some crit.

[Offhand]

Our threat might be godly but in hard modes, dps can give us a run for our money and quite frankly, it seems like you're saying you are not spec'd at all into conviction or crusade and if that's the case...I don't see how you can tank effectively without holding back your dps.

Threat is usually only a concern for gimmick fight (Hodir, Malygoes, etc). In those cases the damage is usually low or at the very least, predictable. In those cases I normally throw on a greatness deck and forget about the problem.

It's absurd to assume that you won't use wings and your dps won't use their own threat dumps. Opening burns (like IC hard) don't last very long and wings normally equates to a very nice buffer (you're saving lust).

EDIT: Dyslexia strikes!

[Biznick]

Our threat might be godly but in hard modes, dps can give us a run for our money and quite frankly, it seems like you're saying you are not spec'd at all into conviction or crusade and if that's the case...I don't see how you can tank effectively without holding back your dps.

I'm calling BS on your claim. Provide some armory links for your "top20" dps. Because what you're saying is not adding up.

i dunnooo, im completely specced for survivability and i dont really see much chance for a dpser to ever catch up to my constant 8-9k TPS.

its also worthy of noting that the OP is asking for help with his much-in-need pally friend who is very doubtly doing any hard-modes.

so if his friend is not having a problem with threat, then why not spec for survivability?