Possibly a new way to deal with hardcore/casual delima

[Mixon]

im not sure if this is a new idea or not but here goes.

i hear alot of ppl taking aobut missing attunments. and i kinda agree. yeahs it annoying when your cock blocked by vashj or keal but...it also seems to make everyone super mad when they just throw gear at new 80's to catch them up (gear wize) to everyone else. so heres the plan.

wish this plan had been used for all content released so far.

1) release the first tier of raids with the xpac, last boss of the instance drops a key to the next one.
2) fix the bugs, not nerf
3) release the next tier of raid or raids, and substancially nerf previous raid.
4) fix bugs, not nerf, give last boss a key item.
5) release next tier of raid or raids, nerf previous raid and nerf even more the one b4 that. (im taking simple nerfs like just lower the damage done making it somewhat trivial but still requiring ppl to go thru the motions and supplying them with badges to buy gear with while they are getting gear from there 1 or 2 runs thru the instance, maybe even up the # of badges droped)
.
.
.
?) next xpac comes out...massive nerf to final raid instance with last boss droping a key to unlock or start a quest leading to the new area and unlocking exp to continue lvling =) (may be a really bad idea, especially for ppl who get the xpac a week or so late)

i think this would be kinda the best of both worlds for everyone. and allow everyone to see all content.

[atf]

That's what Blizz has been doing since 2.2 or 2.3.....?

[Mixon]

it seem more like they are making so much content skippable. i never got to kill muruu or KJ dew to my guild falling apart and being on a low pop server and guild being more set and defined the way they were in BC i never got them down, and now its impossible to get enough ppl to go back and kill them i would much rather have killed them at 70 even after a big nerf then to have to get 25 80 to go steam roll them...

on top of that i never got to see any of the 60 content till i was 70 and still to this day have not seen some it. if such a system were i ther would be enought ppl to get to groups for things like this and let everyone see a nerfed version of the instance at the lvl it was designed for.

this would also help solve this silly fight over embelms since you could load up on all the types of emblems as you skipped thru the entry lvl raids.

[Mixon]

i know naxxd has been nerfed a fair bit..

but i took my alt in there (10 man) with a pug the other day and it was way harder than it was when i first hit 80 on my main, my guild and i rolled thru it all except sarth + drakes in about 2 weeks and 2 or 3 shot (some 1 shot) most of the naxx 25 man bosses.

now bringing my alt thru most of the expierenced raider no longer run it and its a few alts with a bunch of new raiders, had the instance been nerfed when ulduar came out it would have allow new 80's to be gently nudged into raiding and how it works while gearing them up for higher end content. as it stands they will mostly run heroics tosave wiping in naxx with pugs with other new players and when they get there 226 gear app to a guild get taken to raid new high end content with little or no raid exp and possibly get kicked and have a bad rep with a guild that they a week or so later would have fit nicely into had they had a little raiding back ground.

[Offhand]

That's what Blizzard did in TBC and it worked wonderfully.

EDIT: Blizzard has always made content accessible at some point. You just need to be cutting edge to do it when it comes out, obviously.

They determined that no amount of hand-holding will get the bads (and I mean bads, not casuals) through simple, easy content, so they need to jack up the hand-holding to heretofore unknown levels of easy (see free tier, access to Colosseum badge loot via the reg daily).

Blizzard plays to a hypothetical middle that doesn't exist. They're trying to get some unspecified percent of people through content in order to justify it as "accessible". They don't realize how bad the bads are (XT nerf) and how good a decent raider is (XT hard, uber buff).

[Mixon]

they kinda did it in pre BC, but im talking about bigger nerfs after the next patch is released and keeping the attunment so that ppl will actually go and do them and get to see them and get geared. keal and vashj were no exactly easy (only 1 pug ever killed em and it was with most of the ppl from 2 of the better guild on the server) even when sunwell was out, leading to my guild just skipping them and going on to bt and hyjal, later clearing up to muru and again me never getting to kill muru or KJ.

[Izenhart]

Afaik Blizzard have always done like this...

Start with maybe too hard and quite much bugged dungeon, full it with prequests, key chainquests and then nerf it when the next content is ready to land.

[Mixon]

but i saying instead of just givving out the loot to ppl who dont even raid ( have little to no use for it anyways) why not just keep nerfing the old content to make it easier and easier till everyone can do....and make it a requirement to do in order to move to the next (but its so easy its not a big deal) this way everyone gets to see all content if they even remotely want to, the hardcores stop QQing, the simi hards stop worrying about losing spots in raid to nubs in good gear, the causals can easily get pleanty of gear to progress and be rady to join a raiding guild if they like, and the bads eventually get to see all the content. badges can stay how they are. and it will take only a few weeks (2 to 3) at most to have a fresh 80 ready to take on high end raids but at least they will ahve been thru a few easy raids and have an idea of whats going on.

[figginnoob]

I think I have a better idea. Why not just make two versions of the game? We could have "World of Warcraft" and "World of Warcraft EXTREME". So all the people that whine about casuals can go play their "EXTREME" version and deal with stupid attunements, ridiculously difficult bosses, and hardcore gear grinds. Then casuals like myself will be able to log in to regular "World of Warcraft" only four hours a week and still see all the content.

Or, maybe you could start a trend by playing WoW with your elbows. Then you could say, "WoW! Look at me! I play WoW with my elbows! I'm HARDCORE!". Then you could feel satisfied knowing that you're awesome 'cause you play with your elbows and are much better than those sorry casual scrubs that don't.

My little brother once beat Super Mario World for the SNES using only his feet.

See?!?! You could be awesome like him!!

[epitaph]

I once beat freecell using only my bigtoe...I'm not joking...totaly serious

[figginnoob]

I once beat freecell using only my bigtoe...I'm not joking...totaly serious

You, sir, are pro.! )

I once beat the super bike stage on Battletoads for the SNES. That's the pinnacle of my gaming career.

[Gouban]

I once beat the super bike stage on Battletoads for the SNES. That's the pinnacle of my gaming career.

Have my troll babies.

[wowman]

fuck battletoads
fuck double dragon 3
fuck top gun
& fuck Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (the 1st game)

Hardest shit of all time.

[Mixon]

I think I have a better idea. Why not just make two versions of the game? We could have "World of Warcraft" and "World of Warcraft EXTREME". So all the people that whine about casuals can go play their "EXTREME" version and deal with stupid attunements, ridiculously difficult bosses, and hardcore gear grinds. Then casuals like myself will be able to log in to regular "World of Warcraft" only four hours a week and still see all the content.

Or, maybe you could start a trend by playing WoW with your elbows. Then you could say, "WoW! Look at me! I play WoW with my elbows! I'm HARDCORE!". Then you could feel satisfied knowing that you're awesome 'cause you play with your elbows and are much better than those sorry casual scrubs that don't.

My little brother once beat Super Mario World for the SNES using only his feet.

See?!?! You could be awesome like him!!

^ i see what you were they were talking about, the difference in "bads" and casuals.

this idea was intended to be a nice situation for bot casual and hardcore players, hell it even made stuff easier for the badies ^. in the end it looks like its less the hardcores that are worried about gear and more the bads. they seem to be the ones raging every time anyone makes a suggestion that would actually require them to raid to get raiding gear, no matter how easy it is. raiders will still have seperior gear than everyone else and can easily be spotted, while to one who will suffer from the current path is actually the casual raiders. there will no longer be any distinction between them and the bads, at least not at first glance. less guild will be doing pugs for fear of the incompetent but well geared bads making it harder for a weekend raider to log in and find a compitent group.

[Eurytos]

I once beat the super bike stage on Battletoads for the SNES. That's the pinnacle of my gaming career.

Battletoads guy just won the interwebz. I have a new forum idol now.

Also, Hardcore vs Casual? I was unaware that this was a dilemma. Is this something brand new?

[PBitt]

Honestly, I really like it in its current state (current state being Ulduar). 10 man, 25 man. Hard modes normal modes. There is something to challenge everybody, and very *few* guilds have completed the heroic Ulduar meta, heck only a few have completed the 10 man meta. Some of them are overtuned (Firefighter) while others that don't really need to be get nerfed. If there is a single hardcore player out there complaining how easymode everything is, they'd be wrong, and probably really still stuck on XT. As for the casuals, I don't really understand that arguement. There is 10 man content for good casuals, and I really don't care about the face rolling loot droolers.

[tehealadin]

The "troubles" will never be sorted. The self proclaimed hardcore people, and by hardcore they mean people who bash "casuals", and by that they mean people not them and there is no real coherance to anything. Anyway, the "hardcores" need WoW to boost their self esteem, it isn't a game to them, it is an extention to the real world, one where they are more important and improved and they revel in this. Anything that could endanger this will always be criticised.

Im lucky, it is a game to me. I don't really care what others do, my ego isn't that fragile. But for a lot of the people that post here, the same isn't true, so they will always resort to making unfounded claims and non sensical arguments/flames on here to try and salvage some of their lost ePenis inches.

The "hardcore" mob just want fancy gear that no one else has so they can stand in cities and feel good about themselves. However since they are the minority of the player base, yes the minority, their dellusions of grandure force them to argue otherwise, but they are a minority. They criticise Blizzard for pandering to the casuals, as if this was a valid criticism, even though it is just sound business practice. Not to them though, anything that undermines their bloated sense of self importance must be bad!

Meh, I could go on. You get the idea though. There will always be a rift. Although I don't like the terms used. How about this one (I am so getting banned for this after all the hardcores report me, probably crying and screaming like a dog when they do it), rebrand "hardcores" as "emotionally unstable people with fragile ego's" and casuals as "normal people, who may or may not have a social life"?

The hardcores love to brand themselves as gods and all else as terrible. However I think my suggestion has a larger grounding in reality. And MMO mods, I aint trolling. This is a serious point.

[LeperHerring]

Anyway, the "hardcores" need WoW to boost their self esteem, it isn't a game to them, it is an extention to the real world, one where they are more important and improved and they revel in this.

Um, that's what MMORPGs are designed to do, let people feel like they're heroes in a fantasy world. Why would anyone spend their free time doing something that lowers their self esteem or makes them feel unimportant?

The "hardcore" mob just want fancy gear that no one else has so they can stand in cities and feel good about themselves.

Now this is a classic sign of a fragile ego seeking justification. I'm sorry to break this to you, but the vast majority of hardcore players I've played with don't care one bit what you or any other casual thinks about their gear or achievements. The only people they care about or want to impress are the other guilds they're in direct competition with for progress.

How about this one (I am so getting banned for this after all the hardcores report me, probably crying and screaming like a dog when they do it), rebrand "hardcores" as "emotionally unstable people with fragile ego's" and casuals as "normal people, who may or may not have a social life"?

Not all "hardcores" are "emotionally unstable people with fragile ego's", and not all "emotionally unstable people with fragile ego's" are "hardcores".

The hardcores love to brand themselves as gods and all else as terrible.

No, it's not the hardcores doing the branding. It's people like you who like to bash other people for no reason that build these hardcore-strawmen.

[jpwkeeper]

but i saying instead of just givving out the loot to ppl who dont even raid ( have little to no use for it anyways) why not just keep nerfing the old content to make it easier and easier till everyone can do....and make it a requirement to do in order to move to the next (but its so easy its not a big deal) this way everyone gets to see all content if they even remotely want to, the hardcores stop QQing, the simi hards stop worrying about losing spots in raid to nubs in good gear, the causals can easily get pleanty of gear to progress and be rady to join a raiding guild if they like, and the bads eventually get to see all the content. badges can stay how they are. and it will take only a few weeks (2 to 3) at most to have a fresh 80 ready to take on high end raids but at least they will ahve been thru a few easy raids and have an idea of whats going on.

You guys are still missing the point.

This change blizzard has made is FOR the raiders, not the casuals. The casuals benefit, but that is a side effect.

What they're doing is giving guilds a way to get new recruits and alts a way to get geared without having to do the older content quite so much. Why?

Have you tried to get Naxx group together recently? Nobody wants to do the older stuff. They're sick of it, and too busy with Ulduar. How is it going to be when people are splitting their time between the new raid and Ulduar? Naxx is going to be a ghost town.

To make matters worse, right now we're experiencing Summertime attrition. Vacations, sports, cook-outs, etc.

This change gives us a way to gear toons (especially alts) to fill those spots without having to spend 2 months running Naxx once per week if you're lucky. As someone whose alt healer is getting ready to ding 80, I can definitely appreciate this change and what it means for me.

With this new system, instead of trying to get 24 other people together, you only need to get 4. Run heroics, do the odd Naxx run here and there, and you can get geared up enough to do Ulduar, which enough people will still be doing when the new raid comes out to at least get a group together.

It wouldn't surprise me if the new 5 man dungeon dropped Naxx level loot as well on Heroic mode.

Historically, they had this problem in BC. People did Kara,then the bigger guilds moved on to Gruuls, then SSC, Hyjal, BT, then sunwell. By the end it was getting harder and harder to get people together because the gap between the people coming in and the people geared to do the upper tier was so large that if you lost a few people on a particular night it was hard to fill in the holes. They tried to fix it with the badge system, but it was too little too late.

[Gilian]

They shouldn't make loot this easy to obtain and let people skip so much content. New players just don't learn how to play when they can gear them selfs in one week.

Like when you are in a pug and people link their achievements from killing malygos, but in the mean while they still don't know what the hell they are doing:P. They just got the achievement because they were overgeared and got carried by people who actually do know how to play.

There should be another solution. I don't know if this is the right one.