Should they Redo Warriors like they redid Paladins?

[wabun]

All of which a Holy Paladins can bring to the table. Retribution Paladin lack unique buffs, regardless of what anyone has to say. AD is a needed buff and will improve Paladin tanking.
The only people that will QQ about it are insecure tanks. Paladins are viable, get used to it. Stop bitching on the forums and play the game.

Just as a reminder: this is the warrior forum and the question is if blizz should revamp warriors because the feel very out of date, odd and are one of the worst tanks (weaker or on par with paladins), just like the palas felt odd and out of date before the revamping (changing the judgment, blessing, hand and seal system).
just in case you attaks here are because of the "...Like they redid Paladins". we are in the same boat my fellow blocking tanks... no need to flame you and i hope AD goes life as it is because our 2nd tank (my girlfrind < just posted this so you know i would be toast if i post something bad about palas) is a pala-tank

[UnemMun]

All of which a Holy Paladins can bring to the table. Retribution Paladin lack unique buffs, regardless of what anyone has to say. AD is a needed buff and will improve Paladin tanking.

The only people that will QQ about it are insecure tanks. Paladins are viable, get used to it. Stop bitching on the forums and play the game.

The post I quoted referred to all paladins. Regardless, every class has at least one, often two, trees that doesn't give unique raid buffs (Fire, Destro, Shadow, Combat, Balance, Surv, Enhance, Fury, and Blood are some, if you were wondering.) and which, in case you haven't noticed, is actually fitting with 'bring the player, not the class.'

[helloguys]

Enhance doesnt give anny buff? there is a fews grp AP buff on hits/crit if i remember well, its maybe not the bests buff but...(no flaming, just wanted to clarify, lvling a chamy)

[Xthform]

as for tanking, we don't have the AD change yet, and still it's an uncontrollable CD. don't even know when it procced, or how long on the ICD until it's up... GG

I've played with AD on the PTR and you cant miss when it procs it looks like your being ressed and when it procs you get a debuff telling you you can't be saved by AD for 2 mins.

[UnemMun]

Enhance doesnt give anny buff? there is a fews grp AP buff on hits/crit if i remember well, its maybe not the bests buff but...(no flaming, just wanted to clarify, lvling a chamy)

On melee crit, you give your friends 10% AP, but DKs do the same when talented in Blood.

[Mysmere]

On melee crit, you give your friends 10% AP, but DKs do the same when talented in Blood.

marks hunters have 100% uptime as an aura as well

[UnemMun]

marks hunters have 100% uptime as an aura as well

Ah, my mistake, that's right. Really, the only difference between the major buffs now is how reliable they are. Some classes are better at keeping stuff up, so that utility can be measured in efficiency rather than power.

[Talen]

No.

There are issues which need to be addressed. Problems which need to be resolved. The largest one would probably be the rage mechanics. Others would include the perceived lack of utility, the (current) lack of DPS, a few minor tanking gripes, etc.

But overall, warriors are fine. They don't need the major revamp Pallies did.

EJL

[lave]

just like the palas felt odd and out of date before the revamping (changing the judgment, blessing, hand and seal system).

so this is the change you are refering to & want something equal for warriors? we paladins didnt feel odd before..
noone asked for a new seal system, the old one was fine aswell, blessings just lasted shorter and you had to rebuff someone after you gave him protection or sacrafice.

we werent better afterwards, we were easier to play. its like you gaining double shout duration. neat? sure does it help your tanking and dps much? no.. welcome to our world then - paladins are still the weakest damagedealers and one of the least disired tanks (onpar with you here)

and on top of that we get to read that we`re op and other classes want to be like us dispite the fact that no class (according to wws) does less damage, tanks fewer hardmodes and is less present in high-bracket arena.. and even blizzard says we are in need of pve buff.. leading to forum people whining about an op class that`ll get even more op
funny aint it?

[Nudi]

You're ironic.

Pwner's pwner got pwned

Anyway.. Love it when people make those mistakes.

On topic, maybe change prot a bit!

[Qarling]

People seem to like to use the thing i call the "blizzard balancing" excuse. Just cause warriors were good for all of vanilla and very good in BC. DOESNT mean they can suck in wrath. Its like arena, DK and Ret will be awesome. next season it will be warlocks and warriors. Except its, this expansion paladins will own, and warriors will suck. DKs were good for a while and now they will suck.

This isnt balancing, blizzard have yet to figure this out. Warriors are very weak tanks atm in survivability and in tps. Yes there are some good ones, but DKs are still the #1 choice for hard modes and just about everything. AoE is all over pallies. and if i want someone to not die from massive magic damage, or stuff that needs lots of health (hate strikes) i like druids. Why would i choose a warrior? Sunders? Other than sunders why would I bring one?

Warriors need something, fury could either use a buff or be left alone. The only problem with it, is you need full ulduar gear to really get the best use out of it. Arms is as always, amazing at pvp, and good for pve.

In an overall look Warriors Vs. Paladins. Paladins can heal, can bubble, have 3 rolls they can take, bring many blessings, while warriors bring...sunders? little bit more dps? Commanding shout? Paladins are face roll for tanking and dps, warriors are not. IMO

/rant end

[Flaks]

so this is the change you are refering to & want something equal for warriors? we paladins didnt feel odd before..
noone asked for a new seal system, the old one was fine aswell, blessings just lasted shorter and you had to rebuff someone after you gave him protection or sacrafice.

we werent better afterwards, we were easier to play. its like you gaining double shout duration. neat? sure does it help your tanking and dps much? no.. welcome to our world then - paladins are still the weakest damagedealers and one of the least disired tanks (onpar with you here)

and on top of that we get to read that we`re op and other classes want to be like us dispite the fact that no class (according to wws) does less damage, tanks fewer hardmodes and is less present in high-bracket arena.. and even blizzard says we are in need of pve buff.. leading to forum people whining about an op class that`ll get even more op
funny aint it?

i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you're completely wrong. All 3 of your specs are either well represented, exceptionally well represented or barely represented in arenas unlike other classes. I'm pretty sure I've seen more furious ret paladins than I've seen furious anything shamans. That's not to say that there's a bajillion holy/prot pallies out there too who just faceroll the mass of melee classes cluster effing arenas right now. So yeah.

On the revamp thang, there is no doubt whatsoever that beyond the arms changes, both of the other warriors specs have constantly been being bandaged without blizzard providing a real and/or reasonable change to them. The titan's grip nerf was horrible, no one can possibly argue against that. We have the most bloated and useless talents in our second and third tier of the fury tree than any other class. All of the fury buffs can be provided by other classes in a far more efficient way- improved demoralizing shout can be made up for by the paladin vindication talent for two talent points instead of 5; battle shout provides one more ap for 5 less minutes than blessing of might; rampage up time is determined by the warrior's crit while feral druids can keep it up indefinitely.

Protection, I'm not too sure about but beyond the changes made as soon as wrath hit, the spec has begun to stagnate and has not been evolving like other tank specs due to the reason that "warriors are the most popular tanks and if we buff them, they might become more popular" (some stupid blue post).

[nalcarya]

[...]
paladins are still the weakest damagedealers and one of the least disired tanks (onpar with you here)
[...]

So if both paladins and warriors are the least desired tank classes, which ones are desired tanks? Cause, you know, there's such a wide range of tank classes to choose from.

[velourea]

i say leave prot alone and do something to fury

I say are you nuts ??
Prot warriors are the worst tanks atm in all aspects.
leave fury alone you got one good dps spec arms.
Do something about Prot warriors and leave fury is better.

nah, prot and fury is fine. Let's redo arms!
I'm sure you'd both agree with that :-*

[balalaika]

They redid paladins because they didn't like the mechanics, not because of imbalances.
So that's a different topic imo.

I don't think warriors need a revamp, my main in TBC was a warrior, and I loved the class. From what I see now the mechanics seem 20x cooler, and it actually takes some skill to play one now.

Can't really speak for PvE as I don't really do that, but in PvP I think warriors are doing very well, the main problem is that dks remain too strong. Especially COI, which can completely remove a warrior from the game.

[lave]

So if both paladins and warriors are the least desired tank classes, which ones are desired tanks? Cause, you know, there's such a wide range of tank classes to choose from.

did you somehow forget that DK & Druid are also tanking classes? and that nearly every hardmode ulduar firstkill was done with them doing the tankjob? i tell you whos tanking in an order: dk, druid, warrior, pala (warrior above pala because there are more guilds still sticked to their old tanks)

the order right now (3.1)

• for survival is: dk, druid, warrior, paladin
  for threat is: paladin, dk, druid, warrior

so yeah.. warriors are pretty much fucked right now, beeing last last but one in survival and last in threat. but lets see what 3.2 brings:

• survival:
  - no changes for druids
  - massive nerfs for dk survival (down to the paladin+warrior level)
  - little buffs to block (affecting warriors more than paladins, due you scaling with sbv better and paladins not scaling with sbr at all)
  - big buff for paladin survival (making more than up for the gap to warriors in 3.1 + the widened gap with the blockfix)
  
  threat:
  - no changes for druids & deathknights
  - nerf to paladins shieldslam (down by 30%, higher sbv may make up for this at some point in the future.. right now its a plain nerf)
  - buff to warriors armor>attackpower conversion
  - buff to warriors shieldslam (due to higher sbv, t9 has nearly 500)

so as for 3.2:
dks are getting nerfed hard, druids stay unchanged, paladins get little threatnerfs and neat survival buffs, warriors get little survival & threat buffs
so how can you say blizzard doesnt care? you are the only class with threatbuffs in 3.2 and next to paladins (who are the last in terms of survival atm) the only class that gets buffs in survival

[Ccc17]

Actually I think warrior tanks are okay and I don't really have anything against the change to paladin tanks but I would really like to see Blizzard do something about some mechanics about warrior tanking - e.g. the fact that we have to smash Heroic Strike all the time to "produce" optimal threat is extremely annoying in my opinion and since Blizzard have pointed it out themselves, I think this is something they really should change.

[wabun]

• survival:
  - little buffs to block (affecting warriors more than paladins, due you scaling with sbv better and paladins not scaling with sbr at all)
  
  threat:
  - nerf to paladins shieldslam (down by 30%, higher sbv may make up for this at some point in the future.. right now its a plain nerf)
  - buff to warriors shieldslam (due to higher sbv, t9 has nearly 500)

you seem to know your stuff, so plx correct me if i´m wrong (i´m also only raiding 10-mans, btw atm i have 0 items with BV) but on naxx gear for example there is 77 BV on warri T7 while there is 196 BV on pala T7 (btw there are only 2 or 3 items in naxx10 man, including one shield but not including T7). you also have more block % due to your 100% uptime of Holy Shield, in fact you block 100% of the hits that hit you, while we only block 50% (or something like that) of the hits, so every point in BV brings you double the bonus we get, or am i wrong?
so how can you say palas survivability is affected less by the BV change than the warriors, when in fact it seems to me that it´s the other way round?

[Mak]

the only thing that gave wariors more survivability was last stand as a oh shit button...but palas took less dmg then warriors due to Holyshield and current AD...come to think of it that makes palas better for survival cause they usually don 't get to the point oh shit i need to press last stand

[lave]

so how can you say palas survivability is affected less by the BV change than the warriors, when in fact it seems to me that it´s the other way round?

youre right.. we block more often. that may be thought of blizzard as a counter to you blocking sometimes for 200% so lets assume we both get roughly the same damage reduction from SBV over long periods of time (again: we block more times, you block more amounts)
the problem coming into play is scaling and itemdesign. the hittable for an enemy 3 levels higher than you is 102,4%. a full geared t8.5 tank (warrior aswell as paladin) covers 70-80% of this hittable (avoidance+SBR). using holy shield we are off that limit (im sitting at 105 right now, peaking 110+ raidbuffed)
better items tend to have more avoidance (defense+avoidance ratings).. hence pushing paladins even more off the table, making more and more of HS additional blockrating useless.

to comprehend this: at some point (in theory) warriors are able to block every hit that isnt avoided - just like paladin by just using passive ratings (wont happen due to diminishing returns)
you have upwards scaling - more defrating makes you block more, makes more critblock happen
we have downward scaling - the more defrating, the less holyshield contributes towards 102,4%

in additon:
SBV (wich has been buffed) comes nearly always in combination with SBR (there are many good SBV in ulduar, all of them also have SBR).. try to imagine what addition block rating is worth to a tank, that already blocks every hit due to holyshield