1. #1

    Measuring mitigation

    Hi. Is there a way for me to quantify the amount of "healing" I'm doing through mitigation? A friend of mine showed me the healing numbers for a boss fight in Ulduar 10 last night and I was way behind the Shaman and Druid. I told him that I'm using a lot of mitigation but I want to be able to measure it so I can figure out what % of my total healing is done with mitigation. Thanks.

  2. #2
    Bigslick (13/14H)
    "Those who deny respect for others deserve it not for themselves."

  3. #3
    The Patient tehmark's Avatar
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    Re: Measuring mitigation

    from what I've heard that sucks ass

    use worldoflogs, seems to track that stuff

  4. #4

    Re: Measuring mitigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacelord
    Hi. Is there a way for me to quantify the amount of "healing" I'm doing through mitigation? A friend of mine showed me the healing numbers for a boss fight in Ulduar 10 last night and I was way behind the Shaman and Druid. I told him that I'm using a lot of mitigation but I want to be able to measure it so I can figure out what % of my total healing is done with mitigation. Thanks.
    I just downloaded a mod called skada, its like recount. I didn't use it yet but I know it has an section for absorbs..that might be what your loocking for.

  5. #5

    Re: Measuring mitigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacelord
    Hi. Is there a way for me to quantify the amount of "healing" I'm doing through mitigation? A friend of mine showed me the healing numbers for a boss fight in Ulduar 10 last night and I was way behind the Shaman and Druid. I told him that I'm using a lot of mitigation but I want to be able to measure it so I can figure out what % of my total healing is done with mitigation. Thanks.
    World of Logs is the best I have seen yet for tracking absorbs. It works just like WWS, but it is so much more detailed.

  6. #6

    Re: Measuring mitigation

    Quote Originally Posted by tehmark
    from what I've heard that sucks ass

    use worldoflogs, seems to track that stuff
    The problem with recount guessed absorbs, or anything that tries to estimates absorbs, is that they're estimates at best because of the limitations of the combat log

  7. #7

    Re: Measuring mitigation

    Quote Originally Posted by tehmark
    from what I've heard that sucks ass

    use worldoflogs, seems to track that stuff
    So... were you unaware that Recount, WWS, WoL, etc all use the same combat log?

    I compared several individual fights and overall details of tonight run, pitting Recount healing and guessed absorbs vs a WoL parse, and they were remarkably similar. Recount tends to be just slightly less generous in its attribution of absorbs than WoL (showing about 5-10% less). In either case, if you find WoL to be a good measurement, Recount is similarly a good measurement in-game. If WoL is your holy grail at the moment, then Recount is a conservative estimate of what you can expect WoL to show at the end of the night.
    Bigslick (13/14H)
    "Those who deny respect for others deserve it not for themselves."

  8. #8

    Re: Measuring mitigation

    Quote Originally Posted by dashaus
    I just downloaded a mod called skada, its like recount. I didn't use it yet but I know it has an section for absorbs..that might be what your loocking for.
    I downloaded Skada tonight for my raid and its all bugged to hell. Just an FYI.

  9. #9

    Re: Measuring mitigation

    So Recount Guessed Absorbs (RGA) is fixed that it now will track the amount absorbed by who's shield? I haven't tried RGA ever since I learned about worldoflogs (WoL), so it could have been fixed. Kudos for that programmer, must have been very hard!

    If RGA still isn't fixed, then you still have no idea how much your Divine Aegis has absorbed but maybe with the Shields you cast it could be evened out from PW:Shield even if it's not shown separately.

    If you want to have a quite accurate list of mitigation, then WoL is your best shot. It tracks who has who's shield and what type of shield (so the paladin's shields are shown next to their name too). The only thing that isn't shown is the mitigation by Inspiration, Renewed Hope and Blessing of Sanctuary.

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Mandible's Avatar
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    Re: Measuring mitigation

    Wow meter online tracks absorbs as well, but haven´t used it in a while now.
    "Only Jack can zip up."
    The word you want to use is "have" not "of".
    You may have alot of stuff in your country, but we got Lolland.

  11. #11

    Re: Measuring mitigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nesco
    f you want to have a quite accurate list of mitigation, then WoL is your best shot. It tracks who has who's shield and what type of shield (so the paladin's shields are shown next to their name too). The only thing that isn't shown is the mitigation by Inspiration, Renewed Hope and Blessing of Sanctuary.
    TBH, I hope no one ever figures out a way to add mitigation from Inspiration, Renewed Hope, and BoS to the "grand total" HPS. I mean, you can just look at total damage done to raid and multiply by .03 if you need to know. The fact that JoL is added to a paladin's HPS doesn't really give me a good capture of how well they healed that fight. Same with Healing Stream.

    Healers need to resist the urge to justify their positions in raids based on raw HPS. Raid/Guild Leaders must be intelligent enough to understand that raw HPS isn't the be-all-end-all to good healing.

    I know this is off-topic, and I am genuinely not picking a fight with Nesco. His benign statement just brought this issue, which seems to be cropping up more frequently as of late, to the front of my head.

  12. #12

    Re: Measuring mitigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nesco
    So Recount Guessed Absorbs (RGA) is fixed that it now will track the amount absorbed by who's shield? I haven't tried RGA ever since I learned about worldoflogs (WoL), so it could have been fixed. Kudos for that programmer, must have been very hard!

    If RGA still isn't fixed, then you still have no idea how much your Divine Aegis has absorbed but maybe with the Shields you cast it could be evened out from PW:Shield even if it's not shown separately.

    If you want to have a quite accurate list of mitigation, then WoL is your best shot. It tracks who has who's shield and what type of shield (so the paladin's shields are shown next to their name too). The only thing that isn't shown is the mitigation by Inspiration, Renewed Hope and Blessing of Sanctuary.
    RGA does now show this, though there still is a small amount of error in the attribution of Div. Aegis (a little bit of DA is attributed to the holy priests, perhaps a carryover of the old PoM bug whereby they could proc it?).

    I agree that Recount is not as powerful an analytical tool as WoL, though for live monitoring/review it is quite potent and pretty much the same basic information (they share the same raw data for parsing, after all).
    Bigslick (13/14H)
    "Those who deny respect for others deserve it not for themselves."

  13. #13

    Re: Measuring mitigation

    Quote Originally Posted by tehmark
    from what I've heard that sucks ass

    use worldoflogs, seems to track that stuff
    Worldoflogs is just as accurate as that addon. Just be mindful of how many bubbles didn't get full absorbed and it's pretty accurate. That's it's only problem, it adds bubbles that don't even get touched to your healing. If you know how and when to bubble, it's not very off.

    I keep mental note of my bubbles and shave off a couple thousand from my healing and I'm still really high, the addon is fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-
    ]
    Healers need to resist the urge to justify their positions in raids based on raw HPS. Raid/Guild Leaders must be intelligent enough to understand that raw HPS isn't the be-all-end-all to good healing.
    Oh only in a perfect world! Even other healers in my guild can give me trouble sometimes based purely what they see on meters...it sucks.

    EX - <PIE CHART> US TOP 10 Check 'em out http://piechart-guild.com/

  14. #14

    Re: Measuring mitigation

    Quote Originally Posted by G l o w y r m
    Worldoflogs is just as accurate as that addon. Just be mindful of how many bubbles didn't get full absorbed and it's pretty accurate. That's it's only problem, it adds bubbles that don't even get touched to your healing. If you know how and when to bubble, it's not very off.

    I keep mental note of my bubbles and shave off a couple thousand from my healing and I'm still really high, the addon is fine.

    Oh only in a perfect world! Even other healers in my guild can give me trouble sometimes based purely what they see on meters...it sucks.
    Actually, WoL works like this:

    (1) Combat log registers an "absorb"
    (2) WoL checks to see the last absorb effect damage shield placed within 60sec (PW:S, Sacred Shield, Aegis, Trinket absorb effects, etc)
    (3) WoL awards the "absorb" to the caster of that damage shield

    It does not award any "absorbs" to shields that never absorb anything. It does not award a fraction of a shield that fades before it absorbs. If anything, it lowers the overall absorb of a disco priest such as the senaro below:

    (1) Disco Priest places 6.5K PW:S
    (2) Disco Priest places 3k Aegis
    (3) Paladin places 500 Sacred Shield
    (4) Tank takes 5k Damage
    (5) All 5k of that hit is logged as absorbed
    (6) 5,000 of the PW:S remains
    (7) WoL awards a 5k absorb to the Paladin
    (8 ) Tank takes 4k damage
    (9) All 4k of that his is logged as absorbed
    (10) WoL awards a 4k absorb to the Disco Priests
    (11) 1,000 of the PW:S remains
    (12) PW:S fades

    This is an extreme example to show how the mechanic works.

    Here is the thread on the site that explans it: http://forums.worldoflogs.com/viewto...p?p=1663#p1663

    Scoll down to the site admin's post (Maihem).

  15. #15

    Re: Measuring mitigation

    confirmed in game:

    Recount +/- %5 accurate like WoL.
    WoL doesnt award free unabsorbed shields to the priest as some may think... :/
    only actual absorbed damage gets logged.
    the person who resieves the logged ammount might not deserve it all (as spiritus showed).

    and if u wanna be on top just add 3% of tottal damage taken from your raid night to your self amd BOOM...

    you still might be crapy healer... for disc its more like "when" and "what" rather than "how much"...

    hope it helps.
    Paranoid Tank: "Always be prepared for something to eat the healer..."

  16. #16

    Re: Measuring mitigation

    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-
    ]
    I know this is off-topic, and I am genuinely not picking a fight with Nesco. His benign statement just brought this issue, which seems to be cropping up more frequently as of late, to the front of my head.
    I've posted on my guilds' forum that I think WoL is awesome mainly because it gives a fairly good estimation of damage absorbtion. I got wrongly flamed that my opinion of healing is all about "look I topped healing meters even with 23 others dieing on the kill ^^" and not about "making sure everyone lives".

    I hate to say this, but it's not off topic. Mitigation is where damage is partially reduced. So ~4.5% less damage taken due to inspiration is mitigation. That's the only reason that I've put it in my first post in this topic. I failed to add Vigilance to the list, even if it doesn't stack with BoS.

    I'll just say that I'm not all about healing meters, but I think it's nice to see some of the power of a disc priest especially as an MT healer. I went for crit on my gear and because of that, Divine Aegis healed for the most on the MT from my own heals. Granted, I'm overhealing for a lot so I might cut back a little on healing when the tank is topped up, provided that there is no Weakened Soul debuff on the MT. But that's what WoL tells me and no other addon or online/offline parser I've tried could possibly tell me that. It would merely say "your overhealing is excessive" and not "your DA procs are nice, but you should balance your heals more to be more effective".

  17. #17

    Re: Measuring mitigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nesco
    I've posted on my guilds' forum that I think WoL is awesome mainly because it gives a fairly good estimation of damage absorbtion. I got wrongly flamed that my opinion of healing is all about "look I topped healing meters even with 23 others dieing on the kill ^^" and not about "making sure everyone lives".

    I hate to say this, but it's not off topic. Mitigation is where damage is partially reduced. So ~4.5% less damage taken because of inspiration is mitigation. That's the only reason that I've put it in my first post in this topic.

    I'll just say that I'm not all about healing meters, but I think it's nice to see some of the power of a disc priest especially as an MT healer. I went for crit on my gear and because of that, Divine Aegis healed for the most on the MT from my own heals. Granted, I'm overhealing for a lot so I might cut back a little on healing when the tank is topped up, provided that there is no Weakened Soul debuff on the MT. But that's what WoL tells me and no other addon or online/offline parser I've tried could possibly tell me that. It would merely say "your overhealing is excessive" and not "your DA procs are nice, but you should balance your heals more to be more effective".
    I'm sorry that your guild thinks its constructive to "flame" people for sharing information. It doesn't sound like much fun. It is attitudes like that which I find idiotic. To me, one of the most fun things about PvE is getting 10/25 people working together to accomplish a task. Its an awesome feeling when everyone is having fun, and getting a sense of accomplishment. I enjoy when others get big upgrades on gear, because I know that the raid as a whole will be better, making harder challenges easier.

    If you feel you must add things like Inspiration & RH to your "HPS" in order to validate your raiding spot, then I'm not certain if your leadership really gets it. These are "buffs." A good raid leader will build his raid so he brings as many buffs to the fight as possible. Its like a elemental shaman claiming all the extra damage the raid does during Heroism for himself. Or an arms warrior claiming the extra 4% physical damage done by the raid for himself. IMO, these "unique" buffs should already be factored in to the raid composition. They happen passively by spec or class and do not represent actual talent. Tools like WoL are great for parsing individual performance. How many heals did you cast? Who were they cast on? How much damage was mitigated by shields? What was the percentage breakdown for each of your healing spells for a particular fight? Did your HPS and/or absorbs increase with damage spikes on the tank/raid? How quickly did you respond to these things?

    No one should have to prove their individual worth to a raid through buffs. If a raid leader does not comprehend their benefit, then the fault lies with him.

  18. #18

    Re: Measuring mitigation

    Fortunately, it was just 1 guy who flamed me. But when he was around, he did it vigorously, pointing out every mistake I could have made even if I hadn't made it. Later I learned that he's the reason many players left the guild that I'm in. But I can have fun with the rest of the guildies.

    I agree that Renewed Hope should have an uptime of around 100% (for as long as someone could get hit) during a fight so it should just be a buff like the moonkin aura. But it still is mitigation and that's what the topic name is all about.

    Language fails. I mean, how else should you call it? "Measuring absorbs"? "Measuring mitigation through shields"? I'm just glad that the WoL programmers didn't include Renewed Hope, Inspiration, Vigilance and Blessing of Sanctuary. We all know it's imba by itself but yay for Blizzard for making BoS and Renewed Hope stack even if they work the same way. You have to bring a prot paladin and a disc priest to the raids to utilise maximum damage reduction. But it contradicts to their "bring the player, not the class" policy.

  19. #19

    Re: Measuring mitigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nesco
    Fortunately, it was just 1 guy who flamed me. But when he was around, he did it vigorously, pointing out every mistake I could have made even if I hadn't made it. Later I learned that he's the reason many players left the guild that I'm in. But I can have fun with the rest of the guildies.

    I agree that Renewed Hope should have an uptime of around 100% (for as long as someone could get hit) during a fight so it should just be a buff like the moonkin aura. But it still is mitigation and that's what the topic name is all about.

    Language fails. I mean, how else should you call it? "Measuring absorbs"? "Measuring mitigation through shields"? I'm just glad that the WoL programmers didn't include Renewed Hope, Inspiration, Vigilance and Blessing of Sanctuary. We all know it's imba by itself but yay for Blizzard for making BoS and Renewed Hope stack even if they work the same way. You have to bring a prot paladin and a disc priest to the raids to utilise maximum damage reduction. But it contradicts to their "bring the player, not the class" policy.
    So ya know the terminology and school some knuckleheads when they need it...

    Inspiration, RH, and BoS are "damage reduction" effects. They share diminishing returns with other DmgR effects and take damage off a hit after armor, but before an absorb.

    PW:S, DA, Sacred Shield, et all are "damage absorption" effects. They do not have diminishing returns and "absorb" damage taken after armor and DmgR effects.

    Hope that helps! =)

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