So whats the new ret spec?

[skrump]

Umm if you didn't notice, Ret isn't a hybrid spec...... It's a DPS spec. The first thing that any DPS is expected to do is DPS. Doing the most DPS you can do as a DPS is your #1 job. They don't bring you to raid because you can heal with instant FoL's. Sorry, but that's just not how it works.

That being said, your SECOND job is to bring utility. Therefore, the first talents that you look at are the ones that will increase your DPS. The second talents are ones like Divine Sacrifice, Vindication, Divinity, Guardian's Favor. These are all SECONDARY talents.

And you're right, the 1pt in Toughness was wasted, there's really no need for it there, so you can either grab.... 4/5 Divinity orrrr 1/2 in Vindication. Whichever you want, doesn't really matter.

Ret might be a dps spec but it belongs to a hybrid class if people wanted the extra dps they would of brought a rogue, your utility is more important to a raid than anything and it is what gets you invited not your dps even on a hybrids best day a equally skilled/geared rogue is going to do 5% more damage but your a paladin your dps does not even qualify as hybrid quality in a fullt buffed 25m raid of decently geared people.

Simply put if everybody has crap gear in a 10m a ret paladin does competitive dps because his dps is less gear driven than anybody else and he can achieve 3.2k dps in all greens with a noobsteel destroyer.

Same paly in a 25m raid where everybody has best in slot the paladin will be doing 5k dps while the other hybrids are pushing 5.8 and the pures are pushing 6k+

[skrump]

Correction.... THIS is the proper raid spec. PoJ = dps increase, and Divine Sacrifice is worth much more utilitywise.


http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...&version=10048

I dont think you quite understand the value of lowering a bosses Attack power
Divine Sacrifice on the other hand just transfers the damage someone else takes to you and the healer just has to heal you instead.

Now as a raid leader I would much rather let any of the other dps die because even though the Ret paladin does piss poor damage if he dies the raid looses the raid buff and they lose Judgment of light

[Handsylton]

Ret might be a dps spec but it belongs to a hybrid class if people wanted the extra dps they would of brought a rogue, your utility is more important to a raid than anything and it is what gets you invited not your dps even on a hybrids best day a equally skilled/geared rogue is going to do 5% more damage but your a paladin your dps does not even qualify as hybrid quality in a fullt buffed 25m raid of decently geared people.

Simply put if everybody has crap gear in a 10m a ret paladin does competitive dps because his dps is less gear driven than anybody else and he can achieve 3.2k dps in all greens with a noobsteel destroyer.

Same paly in a 25m raid where everybody has best in slot the paladin will be doing 5k dps while the other hybrids are pushing 5.8 and the pures are pushing 6k+

Ohhhhh okay so you're asking the Feral Kitty to pop out of Kitty form and throw heals? You're asking the Spriest to pop out of Shadowform and throw heals? Hmm.... I'm pretty sure that they would help the raid more by staying in there and trying to kill the boss faster.

I dunno what world you live in, but there are Rets out there that can do better dps than basically any other class. It's called knowledge of your class.

I dont think you quite understand the value of lowering a bosses Attack power
Divine Sacrifice on the other hand just transfers the damage someone else takes to you and the healer just has to heal you instead.

Now as a raid leader I would much rather let any of the other dps die because even though the Ret paladin does piss poor damage if he dies the raid looses the raid buff and they lose Judgment of light

Ummm... DS+Bubble much?

[Ronark]

how about:

"We'll let you know when they finish the PTR"


I'm very hesitant to tell anyone anything lately especially when it's all subject to change.

^

As new builds develop we'll change the spec... but as of now a lot of the other threads already have this information laid out.

Ret might be a dps spec but it belongs to a hybrid class if people wanted the extra dps they would of brought a rogue, your utility is more important to a raid than anything and it is what gets you invited not your dps even on a hybrids best day a equally skilled/geared rogue is going to do 5% more damage but your a paladin your dps does not even qualify as hybrid quality in a fullt buffed 25m raid of decently geared people.

Simply put if everybody has crap gear in a 10m a ret paladin does competitive dps because his dps is less gear driven than anybody else and he can achieve 3.2k dps in all greens with a noobsteel destroyer.

Same paly in a 25m raid where everybody has best in slot the paladin will be doing 5k dps while the other hybrids are pushing 5.8 and the pures are pushing 6k+

If you want Utility > DPS, then why bring a Ret paladin when you can bring a Holy or Prot paladin that (come 3.2) has the SAME utility?

In some fights, yes, your Cleansing can be a higher priority than your DPS. But most of the time, when you are spec'd Ret you are there for DPS first and utility second.

[skrump]

^

As new builds develop we'll change the spec... but as of now a lot of the other threads already have this information laid out.

If you want Utility > DPS, then why bring a Ret paladin when you can bring a Holy or Prot paladin that (come 3.2) has the SAME utility?

In some fights, yes, your Cleansing can be a higher priority than your DPS. But most of the time, when you are spec'd Ret you are there for DPS first and utility second.

That is actually quite simple your bring the Ret paladin because
his Judgement of light heals for a good deal more than prot/holy
Vindication is a damage debuff on the boss that helps out the tank
Divine storm even if a small heal is still a aoe heal that helps the melee when taking splash damage
Judgment of the wise .. need i say more
Improved blessing of might .... because the healers/tanks have other blessings that are a bigger benefit when cast by there spec

[Handsylton]

That is actually quite simple your bring the Ret paladin because
his Judgement of light heals for a good deal more than prot/holy
Vindication is a damage debuff on the boss that helps out the tank
Divine storm even if a small heal is still a aoe heal that helps the melee when taking splash damage
Judgment of the wise .. need i say more
Improved blessing of might .... because the healers/tanks have other blessings that are a bigger benefit when cast by there spec

So I'm just trying to get a clear thesis.... you're saying that Paladins aren't worth bringing to raid for anything other than their utility? Well sir, you have never met a good Ret paladin then.

[Adamson]

Divine sacrifice owns vindication for several reasons:

1) Warriors have demoralizing shout
2) Warriors have demoralizing shout
3) Warriors have demoralizing shout
4) and saving your tank and our raid members life via divine sacrifice is a lot more valuable than bringing a buff your warriors already bring.

So

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...&version=10048

is the proper raid spec in my opinion. I've been raiding for a long time, and keeping up with the paladin changes since 2.3.

If you told your raid leader you could reduce the damage the raid takes for 10 seconds by 30%, or decrease the bosses attack power, guess which one he'll pick?

[Merander]

Proper Raid spec

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...&version=10048

Vindication huh?



Adamson has the Best point why not go into Vindication and his Build is Solid. I might consider Taking Soc though for Trash and soloing as i havent yet tryed SoV while Soloing anyone can give some numbers?

[Ronark]

That is actually quite simple your bring the Ret paladin because
his Judgement of light heals for a good deal more than prot/holy

Post 3.2 JoL heals for the same amount, reguardless of which spec tossed it up.

Vindication is a damage debuff on the boss that helps out the tank

Prot specs already mostly include Vindication.

Divine storm even if a small heal is still a aoe heal that helps the melee when taking splash damage

The amount healed is minuscule, and a single tick from a Rejuv can cover this amount :/

Judgment of the wise .. need i say more

You need it to DPS.... unless you use Seal of Wisdom, you aren't going to be tossing out 14k HLs anytime soon. And if you were healing, you'd be Holy, so healing =/= Utility.

Improved blessing of might .... because the healers/tanks have other blessings that are a bigger benefit when cast by there spec

Most Holy paladins that spec into Ret for the crit already have Imp BoM.

[Sinister Knight]

Your personal dps is more important than the utility/damage bonuses you bring to the rest of the raid huh ? .... glad your not in my guild
Oh and good luck to the guy who said let the holy paladin pick up imp might i assume he will be looking for a new guild soon as well

Well you were half good on your reply. As Ronark said, if you're Holy and you go into Ret, you better pick up Imp Might if you're smart.

[Sinister Knight]

Same thing that Adamson and Rhonen said

No, I just understand my job as DPS. It doesn't matter how much utility you bring to the raid if you can't do your job and DOWN THE BOSS. Therefore, your number one, no questions asked job as DPS is to do as much damage as possible to the boss. If you can throw utility into that as well, then it's awesome. However, I also understand that my guild brings me into raid to do one thing, and that's to DPS the boss.

I'm sorry that you don't understand what your main job is.

See now you're just getting bitter in your replies. But I'm sorry I just can't sit by and listen to you tunnelvision'd people who think that because you have a DPS SPEC it means you shouldn't be doing anything else but mindlessly spamming dps buttons. DS+DG is HUGE in helping mitigate raid damage, XT Hardmode Tantrum is one that comes to mind right off the bat, another is Hodir's Frozen Blows.

To the person that mentioned kitties going out of cat to heal, or Spriest, well cats have to to BR, do you tell them to not stop to BR because that cuts into their DPS? And yes we've had Spriests pop out of shadow to help heal if we lose a healer, it's all part and parcel to being a Hybrid Class.

Maybe I don't have the most uber heal team in my guild's raids to facilitate me not worrying about popping off with a few FoL's on the Tank or someone else, maybe it sucks that I'm the fastest Cleanser in Hodir fights and I know that people would have died if I hadn't healed them. But you know what, it has helped us kill bosses countless times, and my dps is still up there where I like it to be. So you go ahead and not spec DG for a couple hundred more dps, and when 3 dpsers die to boss AE that you could have mitigated, ask yourself if that couple hundred dps was worth it to you.

Someone do me a favor and do the napkin math of just how much you would gain dpswise with 5/5 Seals of Pure vs 3/5. I want to know how much I'm missing out on.

I reiterate, if you want to simply dps without the worry of healing, shielding, etc, etc, then roll a pure dps class.

[Batsmuggler]

Lol ret pallys telling other ret pallys they're noob, when will they realize

[Ronark]

See now you're just getting bitter in your replies. But I'm sorry I just can't sit by and listen to you tunnelvision'd people who think that because you have a DPS SPEC it means you shouldn't be doing anything else but mindlessly spamming dps buttons. DS+DG is HUGE in helping mitigate raid damage, XT Hardmode Tantrum is one that comes to mind right off the bat, another is Hodir's Frozen Blows.

To the person that mentioned kitties going out of cat to heal, or Spriest, well cats have to to BR, do you tell them to not stop to BR because that cuts into their DPS? And yes we've had Spriests pop out of shadow to help heal if we lose a healer, it's all part and parcel to being a Hybrid Class.

Maybe I don't have the most uber heal team in my guild's raids to facilitate me not worrying about popping off with a few FoL's on the Tank or someone else, maybe it sucks that I'm the fastest Cleanser in Hodir fights and I know that people would have died if I hadn't healed them. But you know what, it has helped us kill bosses countless times, and my dps is still up there where I like it to be. So you go ahead and not spec DG for a couple hundred more dps, and when 3 dpsers die to boss AE that you could have mitigated, ask yourself if that couple hundred dps was worth it to you.

Someone do me a favor and do the napkin math of just how much you would gain dpswise with 5/5 Seals of Pure vs 3/5. I want to know how much I'm missing out on.

I reiterate, if you want to simply dps without the worry of healing, shielding, etc, etc, then roll a pure dps class.

I could do some data mining if you wanted

Yes DS/G is good utility, with a "proper" DPS spec you should beable to pick up the normal DS but not the improved one.

With the paladin being the worst single-target DPS, you need to make sure that you are properly doing your job as a DPS member or you will be cut. Its okay to be offhealing with instant FoLs, or Cleansing from time to time, but if you're doing so when it is inappropriate, and hurting your personal DPS, you can be simply replaced.

Its not like DPS is hard to come by there days.

[Handsylton]

Oh I never said that the ONLY thing you should be doing is DPS'ing. Instant FoL's, Divine Sacrifice+bubble, HoS, HoP, Cleanse. These are all abilities that a Ret can and should be utilizing in raid IF NECESSARY. You're confusing the point between "DPS is your first job" and "DPS is your only job."

Once again, being able to pick up Divine Sacrifice while maintaining the optimum DPS spec is awesome, and if it is possible to do in a build, then by all means do it. I know that I will have it in my build and probably get frequent use out of it.

You're right in the point that we are a hybrid class and should be using the aforementioned abilities when their use is needed. You are wrong in the point that you should sacrifice your main job, DPS, to help others do their job.

The whole point is that pre-nerf XT, our healers could heal through Tantrum without anyone dying. Using DS makes it a lot easier for them, but it isn't NECESSARY. If you use it and it helps other people do their job, it's great. You should not have to go out of your way doing your job to make sure other people do their job. Cleanse is a little different, because not everyone can do it, so that is part of our job on disease fights.

You should only spec into utility/other abilities after you've grabbed every possible DPS increase you can, because as a DPS, you are supposed to do the most damage possible, THEN worry about utility.

[Roonweld]

nonexistant

[iktankniet]

bunch of text

i remember you posting a spec where you took Dsac above Sotp for 3.2. you're a fast learner

but i agree with you here.

DPS is main. survivability is an extra.