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  1. #1

    The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    I have closed my previous thread because it had been dominated by unproductive conversation in making fun of how I deal with deconstructive criticism rather than commenting on any of the theory crafting I have listed. I admit that I do get defensive at times, but I would like a chance to start this thread over with a more positive tone. I do apologize if in my previous post I offended anyone by my defensive behavior and also admit that when I get defensive because of my sarcastic wit I can be demeaning at times which again I apologize for. I would appreciate if someone has something to say about what I have written that they leave their personal opinions of me out of why they think what they do and I will do the same in return.

    I did take this post to EJ.com and though it was welcomed as a viable spec and my theory crafting was not criticized, as you can see it is a long post and they do not like anything but small precise answers and could care less about anyone’s opinion other than their own truly living up to their name, the elitist jerks. I have created this thread to help people who are interested in learning about the mage class in general and in helping them decide what spec is optimal for what fights in Ulduar, also to show the minor changes I have made to the cookie cutter FFB spec to buff its overall damage without losing single target dps and lastly to cover some scaling misconceptions of FFB itself. So, if you are not up for a long read then I will warn you ahead of time, this is not the thread for you. It is in fact an over 10 page thesis on my personal thoughts and opinions on the class I and so many others have grown to love, the Mage.

    As you can see I play a mage named Ishwar on the Area 52 server. First a little information about me, I raided in the second best guild on the alliance side of my server for over a year as the mage officer in War Nerve. We did manage to clear Sunwell, so I do have a fairly significant amount of raid experience. Unfortunately my guild broke up mostly into Symbolic Logic who left Area 52 and went onto being in the top 100 U.S. a week into Ulduar (since then they have broken up as well because there GM got into Premonition). I have been unable to raid for the most part over the last 6 months due to computer issues which will explain my current gear status being in as much high end Nax as Uldaur gear, but I have a great new computer and have found a fun guild that is progressing nicely. Ok, enough about me and onto the good stuff.

    Currently there are 3 viable raid specs for mages that I would like to show some quick RAWR statistics for before we begin. For those not familiar with RAWR it works off of a 300 second encounter (which of course you can change in its options), full raid buffs, and 0 lag or mobility time. It basically shows what damage is attainable standing still with a flawless rotation, complete raid buffs, and no lag whatsoever. I will show what RAWR damage charts show with my current gear setup. Note that RAWR deals with averages. As all raiding mages know there is always going to be a large amount of RNG (random number generator) factor when dealing with procs like Missile Barrage, Hot Streak, and the self procing trinkets most of us have. You can download this mod yourself form Elitistjerks.com on the mage forums to help you optimize not only your specs, but what gear you should be looking for.

    Arcane Spec – 57/3/11 RAWR: 6423.53 dps
    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...00000000000000

    Hit (until you are capped)>Spellpower>Haste>Crit

    This spec is all about burst damage, so for fights like Malygos, zurg 10 man 3 drake Sartharion, and most Heroic fights due to how short most of them are this spec will out damage both FFB and TTW Firebal. The downside of this spec is that it has the highest mana consumption of any mage spec and relies on a reduced cooldown on Evocate (down to two minutes) to recharges the player’s mana. If during the 7 seconds you evocate you are hit by anything it seriously reduces the mana returned by evocate thereby gimping your overall damage due to the fact that you will be unable to use your maximum dps rotation. This spec also has the shortest range of, 5 yards less then FFB or TTW Fireball, at 30 yards. This spec does however have a significantly lower hit cap requirement due to the 6% hit it gains from talents. With full hit raid buffs (heroic presence and a shadow priest) your hit cap drops to 184. Alone your hit cap is 289.

    TTW Fireball Spec – 20/51/0 RAWR: 6929.12 dps
    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...00000000000000

    Hit (until you are capped)>Spellpower>Haste>Crit

    As you can see this is the pure single target dps spec. Since I do not PVP in WOW I am fortunate enough to be able to run this spec along with my "Improved FFB Spec" and use it often in Ulduar. This spec is not as mana efficient as FFB and loses significant AOE power, but it does have a 5% (average) increase in single target dps as long as the target is being slowed or snared in some way (thunderclap for instance) to allow Torment of the Weak to apply (12% increase in damage).

    When WOTLK came out raid bosses could not be affected by slow affects for all but Arcanes Slow, but from what I have read it would have taken 14 TTW Fireball mages to 1 Arcane mage to utilize this buff for an actual dps raid damage increase. Now that they have changed this since 3.1 the TTW Fireball spec is used by a number of mages that previously were using FFB. One thing to note about this spec is that it provides no hit talents to fire which makes your hit cap raid buffed 342 and alone 446. Since being soft hit capped (hit capped with raid buffs) is a requirement of all mages TTW Fireball was not used by many mages until they had nearly all the best in slot items in Nax. The fact that it is less mana efficient will not be an issue once the next patch hits do to the mana returns we will be getting from our ignites, but currently mana is an issue and is why Most mages have to evocate during long lasting fights and or use mana pots which is in fact a dps loss. Evocating is time spent not casting, and using a mana pot means you cannot use Potions of Speed or Potions of Wild Magic. This spec has a 35 yard range, 5 yards above the Arcane spec listed above. Personally I love this spec and it puts up great single target dps numbers. I recommend this spec for a few fights in Ulduar.

    The Improved FFB Spec – 0/51/20 RAWR: 6651.49 dps
    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...00000000000000

    Or if you cannot utilize the Hit from Precision, like I am currently unable to do, then this is a better choice for added mana efficiency and threat reduciton for Blizzard.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...00000000000000

    If you like added range over the mana and threat reduction to Blizzard two points in Frost Channeling provides, again if you are unable to utilize the hit, than taking these two extra points and putting them into Flamethrowing might be for you.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...00000000000000

    Hit (until you are capped)>Spellpower>Crit>Haste

    One downside to this spec is the low base damage given to FFB itself, but due to Ice Shards (100% increased critical damage), Piercing Ice (6% increase frost damage), and the buffs that TTW Fireball also utilizes in the fire tree FFB has the most powerful critical bonus damage in the game, over 330%. Here is some information posted on wowwiki.com about the FFB Spec.

    "This build is PVE-competitive because of the early Frost DPS talents and the powerful crit modifier it gives to Frostfire Bolt. This build is based on Frostfire Bolt, and is classified as Fire rather than Elementalist for its steep expenditure into the Fire tree, while the Frost investment is puny in comparison, making it in reality a Deep Fire build. The rotation in this tree is exactly like the one in the above Fireball build, except replacing Fireball with Frostfire Bolt and using Living Bomb at all times. Frostfire Bolt is highly mana-efficient and has been shown to compete excellently with the Fireball build above in terms of DPS. Although Frostfire Bolt normally hits for less than Fireball, it crits hit much harder due to the number of modifiers and talents which activate on a critical hit: Burnout, Ice Shards and Ignite, all of which are absolutely mandatory. Note that unlike Fireball/TTW, Combustion is absolutely mandatory because of this. “

    One thing to note about this spec in relation to the TTW Fireball spec is that due to the nature of FFB, lower base hits and higher crits, you are going to see more of an RNG factor. An upside to FFB, aside from a much more powerful AOE, is that it has much more burst damage due to specing into Icy Veins. TTW Fireball has great constant damage, but there are many fights in Nax and Ulduar that benefit from having strong burst damage and that also provide momentary damage buffs that Icy Veins can increase even further.

    I would like to update this part of the forum by posting my fight per fight Ulduar breakdown for which ones best suits FFB and what fights best suit TTW Fireball and why in my opinion.

    Yogg-Saron The Tentacles which must be taken down will not have the benefit of TTW making FFB a far better choice on that fight.
    extrudedcow has made an effective argument that deppending on what your duty is on this encounter range could be beneficial, but my guild is not there yet so I will wait to make my personal evaluation till then. I may just leave my respec up from General on for him as well and see how it goes.

    General Vezax
    Not just for the added mana efficiency which is crutial on General, but also for the crit multiplier that FFB (over 330%) has utilizing the damage buff far greater then TTW, but also in that Icy Veins buffs the pools even further.
    On this encounter Flamethrowing becomes a very useful talent to spec into and the added mana efficiency that 3 of 3 in Frost Channeling which the original 0/53/18 FFB spec provides. My guild normally gets to Hodir down in our first night. Freya, Thorum, and Mimiron down the second, so then for the third night I respec for General because added range and mana helps so much.

    Mimiron
    Pretty much a pure single target fight for all but phase 3 and due to the nerf you can just wait till the end of that phase to AOE the adds, so this fight is TTW Fireball all the way.
    This is also a stationary boss encounter rendering Flamethrowing pretty ineffective in my opinion.

    Freya
    There is a decent amount of AOE in this fight, but this one as I said before is either or for me. If your guild is having trouble burning the adds fast enough then FFB is the best choice for this fight, if not then TTW Fireball. For the hardmode there is no question that FFB comes on top over TTW Fireball, but I have heard of allot of mages going Frost for this encounter as well so that one is still undecided for me as my guild is not there yet.
    The added range of Flamethrowing is not needed on this encounter either in that as a FFB mage you should not be dpsing the Snaplasher who is kited around, you should be targeting the Stormlasher because Frostbite will be detrimental to the offtank that is kiting the Snaplasher when he calls for stop damage. Range could be useful to help get the trees down as they spawn though (betting on the chance that Hotstreak is up which may or not be the case), so if you notice that they are becoming a problem then some added range might be helpful opition to consider. In phase 2 you just move with the tank to avoid the seeds along with everyone else, so range is not a big deal once you get her to this part.
    I have not done hardmode Freya though so I may change this once I have.

    Thorum
    If you are in the Arena AOE damage is vital in reaching phase 2 which is then just a tank and spank with some sparks flying around the place. If you are in the Arena pre phase 2 FFB and even if you are in the gauntlet I like FFB because that mechanics of that fight are when you reach the second boss in the gauntlet that is when the adds are pouring down on the Arena team which is why the burst damage of FFB comes more into play. You want to be able to get that second Boss in the gauntlet down as quickly as possible once you get to him.
    This boss is tanked in the middle of a small room making added range useless.

    Hodir
    When dealing with damage amplifying fights I like FFB because its higher burst damage allows me to utilize these buffs even more aside from FFB having a greater crit muliplier than TTW Fireball making it stack better with the damage buff the boss provides. On Hodir hardmode you have 3 minutes to down him. This also suits FFB more in that when you engage the boss you pop Icy Veins, 20 seconds into the fight it falls off and 2 minutes later you have the next one perfectly timing your second Icy Veins for this hardmode which will put it again over TTW Fireball even without the damage buff.
    You have to move around during this fight to drop the debuff that he stacks on stationary targets making added range useless because you are going to have to move regardless. Just move in range of the boss if he gets pulled away. Added range may help you on the hardmode of this encounter more to help mitigate the least amount of moving as possible, but for normal mode I have not noticed any problems.

    Auriaya
    Just like Freya this fight has minimal AOE, so if your guild is having trouble with getting the tigers and adds down quickly enough then I would suggest FFB, but if not stick with TTW Fireball.
    Added range is not a major factor at all in this fight.

    Kologarn
    TTW only applies to tanked (slowed or snared targets). The arms on this fight will not benefit from TTW so this fight goes hands down ,just like Yogg, to FFB. TTW is the only thing that makes TTW Fireball viable.
    This is also a stationary boss encounter where added range does not come into play at all.

    The Iron Council
    This is a pure single target fight, so TTW Fireball is the better choice. I have heard mages making the argument for FFB on hardmode, but I will leave this alone for now because my guild is not yet there.
    If you are dpsing the small boss while he is in the air instead of spreading out like you should be to avoid the lightning damage and recharging your mana then it is possible that the added 6 yards could allow you to get one extra Pyro or Living Bomb up, but you really shouldn’t be doing this anyway. You should be spreading out and recharging your mana waiting for him to fall back down which only takes a few seconds as the one or two extra hits is not worth you losing your life.
    The argument has been made by extrudedcow that when the runes are on the ground that added range could come into play, but in my experience the tank must always bring the boss within 35 yards of this because that is what most casters and ranged have as there base range. Plus 40 yards if not the norm as is why it is a talent for us.

    XT-002 Deconstructor
    The slow affect that Blizzard provides on the adds might be useful if that is the duty you are on, but if you are single target dpsing the boss and heart itself then TTW Fireball is the better choice for this fight. I have heard FFB mages making the argument that for hardmode FFB is the better choice due to its mana efficiency, but as I said on the Iron Council, my guild is not there yet so I will leave that one alone as well.
    A stationary boss encounter in that the tank does not move him. Added ranged will not help you in this encounter either.

    Razorscale
    This fight is a FFB fight. Aside from the added benefit that extra AOE power grants, the entire first phase is AOEing then waiting for the boss to drop down and Burst damaging her with everything you got to get her to phase 2 as quickly as possible. FFB has more AOE and burst damage power suiting it much better for this fight.
    In phase 2 where the boss is being kited by the tank to avoid unnecessary fire damage you can easily stay in range by moving while casting Living Bombs and instant Pyroblasts making added range not a factor on this encounter either.

    Ignis
    A pure single target fight. TTW Fireball is a better choice for this encounter.
    This boss is kited around the casters and ranged and will never be pulled outside of 35 yards making added range wasted.
    extrudedcow has made the argument that if a add becomes brittle and you have an instant pyro up that you have a better chance with Flamethrowing to be in range of this target to pop him if that is the duty you are on. Personally I have not noticed a problem with this because all you have to do is seperate a few ranged closer to one pool and a few ranged closer to the other so when one does turn brittle there is always someone in range. I can see where the argument can be made

    extrudedcow has made some good points about what fights he believes Flamethrowing to be a viable option for that I would suggest reading on page 2.

    That is a total of 6 fights in Ulduar that suit FFB in my opinion with 3 that are either or and 3 to TTW Fireball not to mention all trash for extra bust damage and AOE power goes hands down to FFB as well.
    I believe that in Nax due to the far greater amount of trash the AOE factor comes into play much more, but there are many bosses in that instance that benefit from FFB just as much as Ulduar even from a pure single target damage perspective in my opinion.

    Now, onto the changes I have made to the current cookie cutter FFB spec. Your old FFB spec was 0/53/18
    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...00000000000000

    Now that most of us are in Ulduar gear the people still using this spec are finding that mana is not an issue whatsoever. I have downed bosses using this spec and never gone below 15k mana for this reason. You can literally cast FFB forever and not go out of mana with full raid buffs and evocation in decent Ulduar gear. This is why I argue Frost channeling is just not needed increasing the cost of our spells by 10% and raising our threat for FFB and Blizzard by 10%. Remember we still have Burring Soul which gives us 10% threat reduction that does not stack for our Fire spells including FFB.

    One thing to note about Flame Throwing for FFB is that it doesn’t affect FFB itself; it affects all other fire spells. FFB’s rotation is (as long as you don’t have to scorch), Living Bomb, FFB…. Until hot streak procs then cast instant Pyroblast and back to FFB until Living Bomb falls off, always reapplying it when it does since it is by far your highest dps cast. TTW Fireball spec is basically the same only in that Fireball replaces FFB. Most of the mages already know this, but I am covering it due to a comment that was made on the third page of this post on how important the Flame Throwing talents are in that it provides added mobility by making your Pyroblast and living bombs range 42 yards while still leaving FFB at 40. The reason I argue otherwise is because, especially with the amount of extra mana the FFB spec has, we are able to blink around left and right instead of actually having to run where we need to be like everyone else does. You run at 6 yards per second and 7 yards with the run speed boot enchant. This means it takes every other class well over 2 seconds to move the 15 yards we can in about a 1.2 GCD with the haste. We also have Living Bomb and Hotstreak instant Pyroblasts that allow us about 2.5-3 seconds of mobility time during every rotation which means we are able to move about 15 yards in any direction while maintaining full dps. This is why I also argue that Icewalker is always a better choice for Mages instead of the run speed boot enchant which some people disagree with.

    Dpsing at 35 yards is plenty of room to work with in my opinion and remember, FFB is your main nuke so if you are standing at 35 yards and the tank moves the boss away you will still get that cast off even if he moves to about 45 yards and then just blinking where you need move to. So, though Flame Throwing is a nice, it is not at all a dps increase and is why I suggest dropping it like I and many others have also done with the TTW Fireball spec (Student of the Mind>Flamethrowing) for added spirit which does equal more Crit-Mana-DPS over a theoretical one. You must also remember that with so many instant casts proced from Hotstreak and also having to put up Living Bomb every 12 seconds we have about 3-4 seconds every rotation to remain mobile while still pumping out as much damage as possible. Use this! Do not remain stationary when you could be moving and only wait to blink till you are out of range. If the boss or adds are on the move do your best to move with them and only Blink when they are pulled so far out of range that you must as this does use a GCD.

    The last and most controversial point of the change I have made to my personal FFB Spec is that I have removed 2 points from Precision. (Can be avoided by dropping 2 more points in Frost Channeling, but I choose to take 2 out of Precision instead because like many mages in Ulduar now I have 342 hit on my optimal dps gear, which is perfectly soft hit capped for TTW Fireball, so I go for the added mana efficiency and threat reduction on Blizzard Frost Channeling provides above the hit I currently cannot utilize) This also increases the mana cost of all our spells by an additional 2% (5% combined with one removed from Frost channeling) and raising our hit cap from 263 fully raid buffed and 368 alone to 315 fully raid buffed and 420 alone. The reason I am able to do this is for the same reason I and so many others have changed to TTW Fireball specs which have no hit talents whatsoever. Because with Ulduar gear hit is no longer an issue. I have only been raiding in Ulduar for a two weeks (due to computer issues over the last few months) and I don’t even have the best in slot items from Nax on a few of my pieces and I still run with 342 hit without gemming for it at all (26 above soft hit cap for FFB humorously enough making even the one point spent in Precision a complete filler talent as well).

    So, what have we lost? Flame Throwing. Added range on our off casts that we don’t need in my opinion for the reasons listed above, a slight increase on mana consumption that will not even be noticed with this spec, an up to 10% increase (depending on whether you can utilize the extra hit from Precision or not) on threat from Blizzard which is completely mitigated by the slow and freezing effects it provides (the threat reduction from Frost Channeling does not affect your Living Bombs, Pyroblasts, or FFBs. Only frost spells), and 2% hit that most of us don’t need (which can still be speced for by losing an extra 5% mana efficiency if you can utilize the hit gained from Precision by letting go the remaining 2 points in Frost Channeling and putting them into Precision).

    With the 3.2 changes to Empowered Fireball,
    Empowered Fire: In addition to its existing effects, this talent now also grants a 33/67/100% chance to regain 2% of base mana each time the Ignite talent deals damage.
    Mana will be even less of an issue then it is now which is yet another reason why I believe Frost Channeling can be done without.
    As it sits right now though if not specing into Frost Channeling forces you to Evocate during a fight when you otherwise would not have then this is in fact a damage loss as Evocate is time spent not dpsing.

    What we are able to gain with these points for our "Improved FFB Spec" is 3 of 3 in Frostbite (the old FFB spec was 2 of 3 and was not utilized whatsoever because it takes one point in Improved Blizzard for this affect to work which 0/53/18 wasn’t able to apply without losing single target dps which was and is always a mistake), one point in Improved Blizzard which allows Frostbite to be proced (a 15% chance to freeze a target in place, with any spell that applies a slow, affect for 5 seconds), and 3 of 3 in Shatter (a 50% increase in critical strike chance on frozen targets which is also notable in that FFB can proc Frostbite on adds and trash itself making it a significant single target dps increase as well).

    I just did a test in Ironforge on the two training dummies where I cast nothing but Blizzard until I reached 10,000,000 million overall damage. Using nothing but Molten Armor, Arcane Intellect, and an Elixir of Spellpower with my own base crit for Frost at 25.38% and World in Flames in the fire tree buffing Blizzards crit by an additional 6% I should crit with Blizzard at around 31%. Casting nothing but Blizzard with the 3-3 Shatter / 1-3 Improved Blizzard / 3-3 Frostbite combo in my 10,000,000 damage test I crit with Blizzard at 60.7%. This is just under a 30% bonus to crit percentage alone, but when 2 mages stack effect what you find is it is closer to 45% because every target is frozen all the time. An almost 30% crit chance bonus alone to our AOE by dropping range that 99% of the time cannot even be utilized and mana efficiency we do not need. I personally think that is pretty significant which is why I am calling this the Improved FFB Spec.

    One person commented that Frostbite is not always welcome if the tank has to move targets around constantly in that freezing them in place will result in some of the adds being pulled out of the AOE group. I reply to that by saying it is up to the mage himself to decide when to use his talents and when not to. You can't just run up the boss and blow all your cooldowns less than 1 second in to the encounter (obviously we have Mirror Image, but I think you all get what I am trying to say). You have to know when to push it and when not to. This is in fact a higher AOE damage spec in that you really don't have to use Flamestrike in your regular AOE rotation, but if the tank is moving the targets from one place to another (which he should be calling out) then maybe for that instance you can use the lower of your two AOE spells (Flamestrike) to maintain a steady stream of damage while things are on the move. Another small, but I think necessary comment.

    One other note about the nature of Frostbite/Shatter combination is in relation to FFB itself on lower level targets. Your FFB now has a 50% greater chance to crit a target it freezes because it too procs Frostbite upping your overall damage on even single target adds and or single target trash as well as a significant AOE bonus with one talent in Improved Blizzard.

    Personally I love having a duel spec for PVE because I am able to switch from the FFB and TTW Fireball specs at will in between fights. So, on all trash (which is in fact important in the sense that the quicker you get through trash the more bosses you are able to down) and some bosses I stick with FFB, but on others I am able to change to the higher single target dps spec of TTW Fireball. If PVP wasn’t a factor I would suggest all mages do the same, but since so many people PVP even more than they PVE this is in fact impossible for most.

    I just want to repeat this so no one is confused, one alternative for my spec if you are not hit capped like I am (I am currently unable to drop below 342 hit) and Need Precision to be hit capped, would be to take 2 points out of Frost Channeling and put them in for 3 of 3 in Precision like the link that I posted first below the 0/51/20 FFB Spec. You would then lose 10% overall mana efficiency (FFB specs have too much mana so this is not an issue as it is at its base more mana efficient then Arcane or Fireball specs), have a bit more threat on Blizzard, and lose 6 yards range that 99% of the time can be completely done without, but you would remain hit capped through talents with a Much stronger AOE.

    Lastly I would like to cover a common misconception. Some people are under the impression that FFB does not scale well.

    "The more sellpower you get, (As in, new tiers) the worse FFB spec will become. Scaling is the key for the DPS, and is one of the main problems for Arcane aswell. Arcane Missiles scaling is excellent, while Arcane Barrage, thanks to Arena fix, is terrible. The spell will see little use once we are into 3.3 and beyond, and FFB will be forgotten by then."

    If conjecture Scorage has made is true then that means, because I have far from the best in slot gear, that if I did have the best in slot gear the damage output between FFB and TTW Fireball will spread so far apart that by T9 as he just stated, "FFB will be forgotten".

    My gear currently sits at the following outputs.

    TTW Fireball - 20/51/0 - 6929.12 DPS
    FFB Spec - 0/51/20 - 6651.49 DPS


    Divid these two numbers and you get a 4.2% differential as I listed before. These specs are very similar in single target dps with TTW Fireball slightly ahead on single target encounters as long as TTW is able to apply.

    Now what happens when I put the best in slot gear on for each spec (TTW Fireball favoring gear with haste and 3% more hit and FFB favoring gear with 3% less hit and crit instead of haste)? Shouldn't that differential fall farther and farther down the more spellpower, crit, and haste we get until FFB is gone forever? Let’s look.

    Best in slot gear damage outputs for TTW Fireball and FFB in a pure single target dps race.

    TTW Fireball - 20/51/0 - 7734.07
    FFB Spec - 0/51/20 - 7499.64

    (Now taking Precision over Frost Channeling because I am able to utilize the Hit with all the best in slot gear)

    Dived these numbers and you get 3.1% differential, but wait, I thought as our gear got better with rising spellpower due to the coefficient of FFB that it would be forever forgotten? This theory is completely disproven once again thanks to RAWR (thank you again elitistjerks.com). As it would seem the more Spellpower, Crit, and Haste we get the closer and closer FFB gets to being on par with TTW Fireball on pure single target fights. With the T9 set bonuses giving us even more Crit (which favors FFB more than TTW Fireball) I would not be surprised at all if the best in slot for T9 puts FFB ahead in the only thing that TTW Fireball is supposed to be better at, pure single target dps while also having a much more powerful AOE better (untalented) range on its main nuke (FFB 40 yards instead of Fireballs 35) and remaining of course far more mana efficient.

    I know this was a long post, but I wanted to be as thorough in my explanations as possible to best eliminate any chance of confusion. So, thank you for your time and Happy Hunting mages.

  2. #2

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and More,,,

    I see you have put 40 points in the fire tree 18 in arcane and 13 in frost, but for some reason my loader is having trouble with that page. As for a viable raiding spec you will not find this on any site because it lacks single target damage. The fire trees highest single target damage ability is not Fireball, FFB, or instant Pyroblasts proced from Hotstreak. It is Living Bomb. By not specing down 51 points into the fire tree you lose this ability. Living Bomb is double the single target dps for the time spent casting than any other spell which is why for a fire build it is vital. If you are asking for my honest opinion I would suggest going with one of the 5 raid specs I have listed above.

  3. #3

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and More,,,

    I agree in that it is allot of information to cover, but I did the best job I could in explaining my opinions which is all I can do. I understand if you or anyone else does not want to read it all and take no offense if that is the case. It is over 10 pages of material.
    Thank you for you your compliment though. I do appriciate it.

  4. #4

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and More,,,

    Your numbers clearly show that TTW specs do more DPS (even if slightly) than Frostfire. Having played a Fireball Mage through Ulduar since 3.1, I would have to say that mana is rarely an issue in 25-man raids, where you have things like Mana Tide totems, Replenishment, Judgment of Wisdom, ect., and thus, does not come into consideration while choosing your 'max dps' spec. Sure, you might go oom twice as fast on a target dummy, but with all of these regen effects active in a Heroic raid, mana simply isn't a problem. I can honestly say that I can go through probably all of the bosses in Ulduar except Yoggy without having to Evocate. If I absolutely must use Evocation, then I wait for the last second of Bloodlust + Speed Potion to greatly reduce its cast time. That way, your Evocation time is cut in half, and it doesn't waste any time on your hasted effects.

    That said, the only encounter where mana is incredibly tight is General Vezax's Hard Mode, in which case you should be Frost spec anyway.

    Also, I'm not sure if you mentioned it in your post, but the reason that Fireball mages don't utilize Combustion in their spec is because Living Bomb ticks will consume charges from it, and they don't proc Hot Streak.

    TL;DR : Fireball is still better, mana is not an issue.

  5. #5

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishwar-Area52
    I did take this post to EJ.com and though it was welcomed as a viable spec and my theory crafting was not criticized, as you can see it is a long post and they do not like anything but small precise answers and could care less about anyone’s opinion other than their own truly living up to their name, the elitist jerks.
    Once again, I think you've missed the point.

    As before, this is NOT a flame. It's simply that your spec was nothing that had not been discussed several hundreds of times before. In fact, as it says on the EJ thread, the options you mentioned are dicussed in the first post of the FFB/FB thread.

    You were banned from EJ for purposefully arguing the same point repeatedly, when in fact people got your point, it was just that they'd seen the same spec about 5 months previously, and dismissed it for reasons that it provides inferior dps.

    Again, as with the last thread, there's no problem with your spec. It's just that AoE in Ulduar does not need a dedicated spec. It's that simple an answer. The issue people have is you hyping your spec, when it is, essentially, pointless.

  6. #6

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    I really am not trying to flame here, but your "new" spec is really a minor variation of the cookie-cutter 0/53/18 spec. Yes, maybe no one has discussed the EXACT spec, but with the flexible talent points in this spec, of course what you arrived at is "logical". Your current gear has the highest optimum DPS score without full Precisions but NO BEST CASE SCENARIO would include less than 3/3 in Precision.

    I dont know really what you are trying to accomplish with the massive posts? Community wide acceptance/respect?

  7. #7

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    Quote Originally Posted by Terasoli
    Your numbers clearly show that TTW specs do more DPS (even if slightly) than Frostfire. Having played a Fireball Mage through Ulduar since 3.1, I would have to say that mana is rarely an issue in 25-man raids, where you have things like Mana Tide totems, Replenishment, Judgment of Wisdom, ect., and thus, does not come into consideration while choosing your 'max dps' spec. Sure, you might go oom twice as fast on a target dummy, but with all of these regen effects active in a Heroic raid, mana simply isn't a problem. I can honestly say that I can go through probably all of the bosses in Ulduar except Yoggy without having to Evocate. If I absolutely must use Evocation, then I wait for the last second of Bloodlust + Speed Potion to greatly reduce its cast time. That way, your Evocation time is cut in half, and it doesn't waste any time on your hasted effects.

    That said, the only encounter where mana is incredibly tight is General Vezax's Hard Mode, in which case you should be Frost spec anyway.

    Also, I'm not sure if you mentioned it in your post, but the reason that Fireball mages don't utilize Combustion in their spec is because Living Bomb ticks will consume charges from it, and they don't proc Hot Streak.
    I completely agree that that Fire even before 3.2 hits does not have mana issues and is why I argue that Frost Channeling just like Flamethrowing is an all by it nice talent that we can easily live without.

    TTW Fireball is better single target dps only if TTW is able to apply. I listed my fight per fight breakdown of why I think FFB is ahead on some and TTW Fireball is on others. I am fortunately able to duel spec and change before these fights to which ever suits the encounter best.
    Would you care to explain to me what fights you disagree FFB is ahead on and for what reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiharu
    You were banned from EJ for purposefully arguing the same point repeatedly, when in fact people got your point, it was just that they'd seen the same spec about 5 months previously, and dismissed it for reasons that it provides inferior dps.
    I was temporarily banned not because this spec isn't viable, they actually agreed it was, but for sharing my opinions, in this admittedly long post, that they do not care to hear period. I was not banned for claiming that it provides better single target dps because it does not and I never said it did.
    Frost Channeling is not needed to maintain damage in my opinion because FFB has too much mana to begin with so why spec for more?
    Flamethrowing is an all be it nice talent that I, and many people on EJ as well, have argued can be done without for the reasons I also listed in my fight per fight breakdown on my original post.
    Care to explain to me why what I have concluded is incorrect? I am here to learn as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiharu
    Once again, I think you've missed the point.
    Again, as with the last thread, there's no problem with your spec. It's just that AoE in Ulduar does not need a dedicated spec. It's that simple an answer. The issue people have is you hyping your spec, when it is, essentially, pointless.
    If you do not like the spec then don't use it Chiharu. I have not told you or anyone that they must or they fail, only that I am able to sustain the same single target damage I was with the cookie cutter one (confirmed by RAWR) while buffing my overall AOE damage and single target damage on lower level targets. I personally contest that this is an improvement for the reasons I extensively listed. You are more than welcome to disagree though.


  8. #8

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinzah
    I really am not trying to flame here, but your "new" spec is really a minor variation of the cookie-cutter 0/53/18 spec. Yes, maybe no one has discussed the EXACT spec, but with the flexible talent points in this spec, of course what you arrived at is "logical". Your current gear has the highest optimum DPS score without full Precisions but NO BEST CASE SCENARIO would include less than 3/3 in Precision.

    I dont know really what you are trying to accomplish with the massive posts? Community wide acceptance/respect?
    TTW Fireball - 20/51/0 - 7572.47
    My FFB Spec - 0/51/20 - 7333.87
    (Now taking Precision over Frost Channeling because I am able to utilize the Hit with all the best in slot gear)

    I am no longer calling this the "new spec" Cinzah because I am sure someone in this world has tried this variation before me even though it is new to me and most of the people I have come in contact with and as I listed above I also agree that with the best in slot gear you should without question take Precision over Frost Channeling.
    If you noticed I even linked the spec that goes into Precisoin first when I started talking about FFB above.

    I agree that it is a minor change and never meant to imply that it was monumental by any stretch.

    I listed the reasons why I made this thread already.
    "I have created this thread to help people who are interested in learning about the mage class in general and in helping them decide what spec is optimal for what fights in Ulduar, also to show the minor changes I have made to the cookie cutter FFB spec to buff its overall damage without losing single target dps and lastly to cover some scaling misconceptions of FFB itself."
    Not for fame, respect, or community recognition. As I said above, I am here to learn as well.

  9. #9

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishwar-Area52
    I listed the reasons why I made this thread already.
    "I have created this thread to help people who are interested in learning about the mage class in general and in helping them decide what spec is optimal for what fights in Ulduar, also to show the minor changes I have made to the cookie cutter FFB spec to buff its overall damage without losing single target dps and lastly to cover some scaling misconceptions of FFB itself. " not for fame or comunity recognition.
    Right, this is my last post, as I feel rather like I'm banging my head against the wall with you. Nothing personal, I can see what you're doing, but I just personally feel you're going about it the wrong way.

    You want to tell people that they can swap some minor points around in the standard FFB to get improved AoE. That's cool, I have no issue there.

    However, you could have accomplished the same thing without posting your whole raiding history, your guild history, and essentially replying to every single comment with the exact same thing that you said in your first post, namely:

    -You're overcapped with hit (we get it)
    -FFB has no mana issues (we already knew that since WotLK shipped)
    -10% threat reduction doesn't stack (we already knew that since WotLK shipped)

    If you'd posted, and said "Here's an alternative FFB spec, sacrificing mana efficiency for increased AoE damage" you'd have got some decent replies, and some 'Well, that's pretty obviously easy to do, since it only involves moving ~5 talent points" replies. And you could have accomplished more by doing that than by positioning this as some grand new paradigm in Mage specs, accompanied by a very obvious thesis on very obvious talent points, that anyone who's played a mage for more than a week (or even just read the talent descriptions) could understand.

    And with that, I'm out. All the best with your guild and raiding in the future.

  10. #10

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    ive been reading your toppic & your posts for some time now

    all vrry interesting & fun to read.

    im not going to bash u, neither will i say your right!

    but what do u think about this idea, in & raid of 25 people our rolles have changed alot trough the years & patches thats came & went. & its important to change & adjust towards what your class is -> BEST <- for or what your class uniquely provides the raid with

    if u compose a new all improved radical FFB build with aoe outputpower way above what we normally do then i hope u are trying to help the people that are raiding 25s without a kitty dps / sp / dk or hunter.

    cause even without being totally specced towards it they kick our ass (speakin as mage here) without breakin a sweat.
    they all have higher survivability incase there focus aoe makes for a overaggro.

    i think the reason for all the contraspam u are getting is that its hard to see the logical path of reasoning u took to come to the post : New & improved FFB spec
    & originally when u talk about FFB specc u were talking about a specc that is / was ments as a good single target output

    i dont see a mage as the knight in shinning armor that comes to save the day when large nrs of mobs are attacking my presious raidmembers
    when the raid is done & im lookin on the wss reports in a dps related kind of way -> i even try to exclude the aoe during the raid (if not on bossfights), having a high overall dmge & dps trough trash aoe gives a distorted view on your contribution at the hard to concer parts of the raid

    try to see a mage as the safe crowd controler at trash (thats what we are unique at) instead of the lord of oae


    well enough said

    good luck convincing the rest of the world of the pro-ness of the build & maybe till we talk in posts again

  11. #11

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiharu
    Right, this is my last post, as I feel rather like I'm banging my head against the wall with you. Nothing personal, I can see what you're doing, but I just personally feel you're going about it the wrong way.

    You want to tell people that they can swap some minor points around in the standard FFB to get improved AoE. That's cool, I have no issue there.

    However, you could have accomplished the same thing without posting your whole raiding history, your guild history, and essentially replying to every single comment with the exact same thing that you said in your first post, namely:

    -You're overcapped with hit (we get it)
    -FFB has no mana issues (we already knew that since WotLK shipped)
    -10% threat reduction doesn't stack (we already knew that since WotLK shipped)

    If you'd posted, and said "Here's an alternative FFB spec, sacrificing mana efficiency for increased AoE damage" you'd have got some decent replies, and some 'Well, that's pretty obviously easy to do, since it only involves moving ~5 talent points" replies. And you could have accomplished more by doing that than by positioning this as some grand new paradigm in Mage specs, accompanied by a very obvious thesis on very obvious talent points, that anyone who's played a mage for more than a week (or even just read the talent descriptions) could understand.
    Honestly Chinharu, and I am not saying this to bash people who are just entering the game at all, there are allot of people out there who have not know these things since "WOTLK shipped".

    As far as the one paragraph I posted about my raiding history. I personally think that when you are trying to create a thread as long as this one that covers so much information it is important to let people know you come from experience so wrote three sentences about myself to show that I do. I in no way meant to come across as the guy who thinks that WOW makes him cool seeing as how if anything is more likely true it is the opposite.

    Your comment about the title is noted as well, but titles are supposed to be short and not entire sentences. I do believe this is an improvement over the cookie cutter FFB spec, I do talk about Ulduar, but I also cover allot more then that which is what I put ",and Much More. I am sorry if this title does not suit you or what you think this thread should be about, but it is the best I could come up with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiharu
    All the best with your guild and raiding in the future.
    Thank you and the same to you Chiharu.

  12. #12

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    Please let go of this redundant crusade for AoE, or FFB Spec. The spec has its limitations, if you like it, play it. Ones that want to maximise damage output will go Arcane or TTW. That's it. No amount of walls of text will change this.
    "So, he sent a succubus to seduce you, and lure you down to his side. And yet, first thing you do is to check her ass? Ah, kid, you've got much to learn.."

  13. #13

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorage
    Please let go of this redundant crusade for AoE, or FFB Spec. The spec has its limitations, if you like it, play it. Ones that want to maximise damage output will go Arcane or TTW. That's it. No amount of walls of text will change this.
    Arcane is behind both TTW Fireball and FFB specs as proven by RAWR.
    Walls of text are just that, walls of text. Not several pages properly written.
    I also believe there are many fights that suit FFB far greater than TTW Fireball for the reasons I have listed above.
    I do duel spec TTW Fireball and use it often in the fights I believe it is suited for.

    Quote Originally Posted by piffer
    ive been reading your toppic & your posts for some time now

    all vrry interesting & fun to read.

    im not going to bash u, neither will i say your right!

    but what do u think about this idea, in & raid of 25 people our rolles have changed alot trough the years & patches thats came & went. & its important to change & adjust towards what your class is -> BEST <- for or what your class uniquely provides the raid with

    if u compose a new all improved radical FFB build with aoe outputpower way above what we normally do then i hope u are trying to help the people that are raiding 25s without a kitty dps / sp / dk or hunter.

    cause even without being totally specced towards it they kick our ass (speakin as mage here) without breakin a sweat.
    they all have higher survivability incase there focus aoe makes for a overaggro.

    i think the reason for all the contraspam u are getting is that its hard to see the logical path of reasoning u took to come to the post : New & improved FFB spec
    & originally when u talk about FFB specc u were talking about a specc that is / was ments as a good single target output
    good luck convincing the rest of the world of the pro-ness of the build & maybe till we talk in posts again
    I think you will be surprised as to the amount of AOE damage this spec can put out with two mages stacking the benefit of Frostbite/Shatter. EJ.com says it can work out "excellently" as well.

    Our survivability has also gone up considerably with being given Mirror Image, even further with the 3.2 change to Invisibility not being interruptible, and not to mention all mages being given Iceblock a while back. Cast Mirror Image when you know you might have a large amount of AOE and 25 seconds in if you think threat will be an issue then pop your Invisibility and even if you miss it and do pull Iceblock will be there to save you.

    Even if other classes can keep up with this stacking affect, which I have personally not yet seen happen, there is no question it is more AOE power, so even if it was still behind these classes I would argue that it's still an "improvement".

    I will not say that this is the "New FFB Spec" even though it is new to me and I believe many others. Over 90% of the FFB mages out speced 0/53/18 and I just wanted to show what I believe to be a viable alternative.

    I appreciate your input though Piffer and thank you for your compliment.

  14. #14

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    OMG YOU STOLE MY REVOLUTIONARY NOT SPEND POINTS ON THE HALF USED FROST CHANNELING SPEC

    Glad to see you'll at least let a bit soak into that thick skull of yours. Btw, I'll be here to flame you till you stop posting.

    You can't just run up the boss and blow all your cooldowns less than 1 second in to the encounter.
    Uhh, yes.. you can. Mirror Images bro. l2 not suck.

  15. #15

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    Quote Originally Posted by Backwardpawn
    Glad to see you'll at least let a bit soak into that thick skull of yours. Btw, I'll be here to flame you till you stop posting.
    See now these are the type of comments I would appreciate if the rest of you who choose to write on this thread would refrain from, thanks.

    Technically if you blew all your cooldowns "less than 1 second into the encounter" you obviously didn't pop Mirror Image because it uses a GCD which is over 1 second and if you hit all your cooldowns then hit Mirror Image then you wasted a GCD of your cooldowns dps time which is also a mistake, but whatever.
    That's not really what I was talking about now was it? I was speaking about being aware of what to and what not to do in relation to how Frostbite can negatively affect the raid and how when it can, using Flamestrike is the answer.

    "One person commented that Frostbite is not always welcome if the tank has to move targets around constantly in that freezing them in place will result in some of the adds being pulled out of the AOE group. I reply to that by saying it is up to the mage himself to decide when to use his talents and when not to. You can't just run up the boss and blow all your cooldowns less than 1 second in to the encounter (obviously we have Mirror Image, but I think you all get what I am trying to say). You have to know when to push it and when not to. This is in fact a higher AOE damage spec in that you really don't have to use Flamestrike in your regular AOE rotation, but if the tank is moving the targets from one place to another (which he should be calling out) then maybe for that instance you can use the lower of your two AOE spells (Flamestrike) to maintain a steady stream of damage while things are on the move. Another small, but I think necessary comment."


  16. #16

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    No it's not a mistake.

    One GCD in trade off for being able to use them a second time on most fights. One GCD in trade off for monster aoe dps on trash and not having to worry about pulling aggro. Besides if you are doing it right you'll have popped all that and be mid cast as the boss is being pulled.

    Oh, and fyi.. you should be using flamestrike in your aoe rotation anyways.


  17. #17

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    You are correct that in a cookie cutters standard AOE rotation they will cast,

    Living Bomb, Flamestrike (Rank 9), Flamestrike (Rank 8 ), Blizzard. The reason we cast Flamestrike rank 9 and then rank 8 is because the dots do stack.

    A mage specing for 3/3 Frostbite/1 Improved Blizzard/ 3/3 Shatter combination does not need to Flamestrike at all as his Blizzard now far out damages Flamestrike and also if he is Flamestriking when there is another 0/51/20 then he is wasting the amazing stacking effect that duel mages can have utilizing these buffs. With say the adds just before XT-002 Deconstructor where Frostbite might hold one of the adds in the force fields they put up where the tank has to drag them out so the raid can once again effectively dps them a mage with this spec should not use Blizzard at all and should just stick with the lower dps AOE Flamestrike which is what I was talking about when you miss quoted me, but for 99% of other pulls a mage using this spec will only need to cast the following.

    Living Bomb then Blizzard (Mirror first is you are using your cooldowns or "Win" macro because you will be pulling very large amounts of threat).

    You should be poping mirror image at the start of a fight, but it should not be in your cooldown macro because if your macro looks like this,

    /cast Combustion
    /cast Icy Veins
    /use Mana Sapphire (if you have the 2 set T7 bonus on for the added 225sp for 15 seconds)
    /use Potion of Wild Magic or Potion of Speed
    /use Trinket
    /cast Mirror Image

    Then you have wasted a GCD of your cooldowns uptime.
    You should cast Mirror Image, then hit the macro above with Mirror Image removed from your "Win" mage macro because...

    "if you hit all your cooldowns then hit Mirror Image then you wasted a GCD of your cooldowns dps time which is also a mistake."

    Your mage "Win" macro should look like this and you should only hit it After you have cast Mirror Image.

    /cast Combustion
    /cast Icy Veins
    /use Mana Sapphire (with 2 set T7)
    /use Potion of Wild Magic or Potion of Speed
    /use Trinket
    /cast Frostfire Bolt(Rank 2)
    or if you are a TTW Fireball mage (obviously removing Icy Veins from this macro).
    /cast Fireball(Rank 16)

  18. #18

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    lol macro lessons now? nice. Where exactly did I say I was popping images after the rest of my cd's?

    gtfo

  19. #19

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    You did with your comment

    Quote Originally Posted by Backwardpawn
    Uhh, yes.. you can. Mirror Images bro.
    In reply to my statment

    "You can't just run up the boss and blow all your cooldowns less than 1 second in to the encounter."

    If you blew your cooldowns less then 1 second in then you did not have the time to cast Mirror Image because your GCD is over a 1 second cast. If you did pop Mirror with your cooldowns, as I listed above, this would also be a mistake because you wasted a GCD of your cooldown uptime. Not to hard to follow.


  20. #20

    Re: The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

    I'm still wondering why you're advocating a spec (one that has several flaws that have been pointed out numerous times, yet you've chosen to ignore) that boosts aoe damage at the cost of single target damage. Sure, it could help speed up naxx runs a bit, but ulduar has very few fights where blizzard is even worth casting. Every single one of these fights is either a trash pack, or doesn't have any pressing time constraint.

    Purely for the sake of argument, here's the numbers I've pulled from rawr using my own character, optimizing gear for each variation of the frostfire spec. (Note: this is based off what gear I have available, not best in slot gear)
    Standard spec:
    single target: 6737.92 dps, blizzard (5 target): 11704.7 dps
    Ishwar's Frostfire:
    single target: 6696.74 dps, blizzard (5 target): 12983.54 dps

    Yes, it does increase blizzard damage by a significant factor without sacrificing much single target damage. However, 10% more blizzard damage is of very little value, as two of the three boss fights in ulduar that have a notable aoe portion are either very easy (razorscale), or leave more than enough time to finish the aoe portion (mimiron phase 3 transition). Aoe damage is important for the lasher swarm in the Freya encounter, but 10% more blizzard dps is a drop in the bucket when the entire raid is focused on aoe. The increase in blizzard damage is also reliant on frostbite, which can get other players killed.

    Ishwar, your comments would be met with more acceptance if you stopped stating opinion as fact. Back up your claims with numbers, and listen when people post valid arguments that contradict what you believe.

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