The Improved FFB Spec, Ulduar, and Much More

[Ishwar-Area52]

Purely for the sake of argument, here's the numbers I've pulled from rawr using my own character, optimizing gear for each variation of the frostfire spec. (Note: this is based off what gear I have available, not best in slot gear)
Standard spec:
single target: 6737.92 dps, blizzard (5 target): 11704.7 dps
Ishwar's Frostfire:
single target: 6696.74 dps, blizzard (5 target): 12983.54 dps

Ishwar, your comments would be met with more acceptance if you stopped stating opinion as fact. Back up your claims with numbers, and listen when people post valid arguments that contradict what you believe.

That is because you have chosen the spec that does not spec for Precision which is a single target dps loss if you can utilize the hit. Try the First spec I listed under the 0/51/20 FFB Spec and your numbers will be the same because the only thing the seperates this spec from the cookie cutter 0/53/18 FFB spec is not specing into Flamethrowing (0 dps on RAWR) and Frost Channeling (0 dps on RAWR).

http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...00000000000000

Try the spec I listed above and show me single target dps loss extrudedcow.
Not the one I listed Below it where I said and I quote.

"Or if you cannot utilize the Hit from Precision, like I am currently unable to do, then this is a better choice for added mana efficiency and threat reduciton for Blizzard."
http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...00000000000000

By the way 30% more crit chance with Blizzard (40-45% with two mages stacking) that benefits from Ice Shards and Piercing Ice is far from only a 10% increase in damage. Test it yourself like I have and see.

"I just did a test in Ironforge on the two training dummies where I cast nothing but Blizzard until I reached 10,000,000 million overall damage. Using nothing but Molten Armor, Arcane Intellect, and an Elixir of Spellpower with my own base crit for Frost at 25.38% and World in Flames in the fire tree buffing Blizzards crit by an additional 6% I should crit with Blizzard at around 31%. Casting nothing but Blizzard with the 3-3 Shatter / 1-3 Improved Blizzard / 3-3 Frostbite combo in my 10,000,000 damage test I crit with Blizzard at 60.7%. This is just under a 30% bonus to crit percentage alone, but when 2 mages stack effect what you find is it is closer to 45% because every target is frozen all the time. An almost 30% crit chance bonus alone to our AOE by dropping range that 99% of the time cannot even be utilized and mana efficiency we do not need. I personally think that is pretty significant which is why I am calling this the Improved FFB Spec."

As far as the flaws.
Why should we spec for the added mana efficiency of Frost Channeling as FFB mages when we are already to begin with more mana efficient than Arcane or Fireball mages?
Why should we be specing for the added range of Flamethrowing over a significant increase in AOE damage when we do not even need it to effectively dps as I listed in my Ulduar fight per fight breakdown?

These are the only talents you lose. Please explain to me why we need them as no one else has yet been able to.
I mean even Backwardpawn, who doesn't agree with anything I say ever, says we don't need Frost Channeling for FFB either.

OMG YOU STOLE MY REVOLUTIONARY NOT SPEND POINTS ON THE HALF USED FROST CHANNELING SPEC

I do understand that this is a long post and it is easy to miss some of the things that I wrote though. Not a big deal.

[Reiko]

My 2 cents.

I got bored after reading the first page.

My 2 specs, 20/51/0 and 0/51/20.

Yes I sacrifice flame throwing, I do in both of my specs. For my FFB I put those 2 pts from flame throwing into imp blizzard, mainly for IC medium mode or Xt.

The greater point is, I dont think the changes I've made to the standard spex are so amazing that it needs to be posted or even discussed. I'm a raider who spends 20-30 hours a week in Ulduar and I know what I want and I dont need approval from the overall mage community.

[Ishwar-Area52]

The greater point is, I dont think the changes I've made to the standard spex are so amazing that it needs to be posted or even discussed.

I think improvements should always be discussed, but you are correct in saying that 2 points in Improved Blizzard does nothing for AOE damage and really need not be discussed itself. It is only when you stack Shatter/Frostbite/Improved Blizzard will you see and AOE dps increase. Thanks for your two cents though.

[extrudedcow]

The central point is that your changes to enhance blizzard damage center on the frostbite talent, which will potentially cause the deaths of other players. You're risking losing other members of the raid (plus sacrificing some utility talents) to get a 10% increase in damage in what is a rather unimportant area. Without frostbite investing points in shatter is utterly useless. If you truly want to focus on aoe damage and provide raid utility, I would recommend something along the lines of http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...00000000000000 . It provides a 57% movement speed snare while avoiding talents you feel are 'useless', and offers a 3.5 second duration debuff that should trigger TTW for any other mages in raid specced into it.

Dummy tests will be extremely inaccurate when compared to an actual raid scenario. The incoming damage from other raid members will break any frostbite procs quickly, so you'll only get the frozen benefit of a frosbite proc on the wave following the wave that triggered it.

As far as missing the talent tree you posted, I skimmed over the bulk of your extensive post as much of it was simply a recap of what is posted in numerous other threads. The rawr numbers are based off the spec you currently have on the armory. In any case, for some reason you continue to ignore the benefits of having flame throwing that has been explained by numerous posters both here and on the EJ forums.

Based off your achievements, you haven't downed Vezax or Yogg yet. These are both fights where extended range and mana efficiency are valuable, while enhanced aoe ability is absolutely useless. I would recommend you focusing on being the best you can be at contributing towards the progression of your raid, rather than trying to pad your numbers with a minor bump to blizzard.



Edit: Well crap, you apparently do want someone to explain why you should have Flame Throwing and Frost Channeling. The simple answer is you should never spec into Frostbite for raids, rendering Shatter useless. Choosing the best talents from the rather bland pool of weaker talents left to choose from, Frost Channeling and Flame throwing are some of the better ones.

Frost Channeling - The reduced Blizzard threat is marginally useful, while the boosted mana efficiency is unnecessary if you can properly time an Evocation. Frost Channeling reduces the odds that you'll need to Evocate or run OOM when a fight goes poorly. Not having to Evocate means more time spent doing damage.

Flame Throwing - The extended range means less repositioning needed in fights with movement. It also allows you to position yourself further away in situations where you need to remain spaced out from other players. Yes, with an intelligent raid most of the movement can be avoided, but it only takes one idiot to screw things up. Here's a few situations in Ulduar where extended range can be useful:
Ignis: There's a golem that needs shattering, and you have Hot Streak up. Thanks to the extra 6 yards range, it's more likely you're going to be in range and able to cover for the person that should have been shattering it, but failed. Sure, you could wind up another Frostfire Bolt, but by then it could be too late, or you could be interrupted by flame jets.
Iron Council: Molgeim just tossed down a rune. If it's a death rune, you have more options as to where to exit and still be able to do damage while remaining outside of chain lightning/static disruption range from another player. If it's a rune of power, it's more likely you'll be able to stand in the rune and dps the current target. If you're doing Brundir last, you'll be able to get off more casts while he's flying through the air.
Hodir: Fires and beams can be positioned poorly at times. An extra six yards can be the difference between being able to stand in a fire/beam and cast, or having to reposition.
Freya: This fight is full of movement. Not having to move to dps a tree, find a closer mushroom, or to get within range of an add is a big plus.
Mimiron: Spreading out in phase 1 is helpful. Additional range allows you to stand near the back, and helps keep the raid grouped up within range of the healers. It also helps avoid out of range errors right after a shock blast, if the tank moved away from you to avoid it.
Vezax: Additional range means more Shadow Crashes available to dps in. Not terribly relevant for FFB (you will likely be sticking to FFB spam), but very useful for Fireball spec.
Yogg: Extended range can be very useful in phase 1, depending on the strat being used and your job. In phase 2 it will on average result in less movement, and therefore more dps time.

[Ishwar-Area52]

The central point is that your changes to enhance blizzard damage center on the frostbite talent, which will potentially cause the deaths of other players. You're risking losing other members of the raid (plus sacrificing some utility talents) to get a 10% increase in damage in what is a rather unimportant area. Without frostbite investing points in shatter is utterly useless. If you truly want to focus on aoe damage and provide raid utility, I would recommend something along the lines of http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...00000000000000 . It provides a 57% movement speed snare while avoiding talents you feel are 'useless', and offers a 3.5 second duration debuff that should trigger TTW for any other mages in raid specced into it.

The only real contention that I have heard in relation to Frostbite is on Freya. Procs of Frostbite on trash will not cause people to wipe as they are not often moved from place to place and in the instance that they are you can always switch to Flamestrike.
I would say that if Blizzard/Frostbite procs on Freya hardmodes is an issue then why not just use Flamestrike for this encounter?
Also on the adds approaching XT that put up the bubbles that they must be moved out of to once again resume dpsing them. Why not use Flamestrike on these adds? I don't see the few instances where you can in fact use the lower dps AOE as a reason to drop the Shatter/Frostbite combination all together personally.
Auriaya, Mimiron (which I suggest TTW Fireball on anyway), Thorum (if you are in the Arena), and Razorscale will have no Frostbite proc issues. As far as trash or in the rare situation that it will have problems like the adds you face approaching XT, just use your lower dps cast Flamestrike. Do you think this is not a viable option?

I understand what you are saying about the downsides of Frostbite. I personally contest that they can be mitigated by a mage that knows what to do and when to do it though. As for the spec you linked. I do understand that 2 points in Improved Frostbolt is an alternative to getting to the 10 point tier if you want to avoid Frostbite. I also see that with 3 of 3 in Improved Blizzard and 2 points in Permafrost that you get a 57% movement speed reduction for 3.5 seconds. I have heard people make the argument against even 1 point in Improved Blizzard on Freya due to it not letting the detonating lashers spread out as quickly as they should. I think this is a weak argument personally as 1 in Improved Blizzard only slows a target down by 25% for 1.5 seconds, but with 3/3 in Improved Blizzard and 2 in Permafrost this may in fact become an issue.

I understand what you are saying about TTW being buffed by the slow effect, but wouldn't the same be accomplished with just 1 in Improved Blizzard and 3 in Frost Channeling with nothing in Permafrost? You would still get the slow effect as long as you were casting Blizzard to buff the TTW Fireball or Arcane mages and all you would lose is the Frostbite some may not want and Flamthrowing many spec without anyway in your 20/51/0 TTW Fireball spec that I currently use as my alternate duel spec. You would even have 1 point left over to put where you saw fit. Maybe 1 in Flamethrowing?
Just a thought, but maybe something like this.
http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...00000000000000

Based off your achievements, you haven't downed Vezax or Yogg yet. These are both fights where extended range and mana efficiency are valuable, while enhanced aoe ability is absolutely useless. I would recommend you focusing on being the best you can be at contributing towards the progression of your raid, rather than trying to pad your numbers with a minor bump to blizzard.

Good points. I completely agree that on General V added range can be very useful and I have not seen Yog yet other then watching my cousin down him from a tank perspective. I will take your word for it that on Yog the extra range is useful as well.

I admited that on General V range is very useful when I said in my fight breakdowns,
"This fight might be the one exception where Flamethrowing becomes a very useful talent to spec into and the added mana efficiency that 3 of 3 in Frost Channeling which the original 0/53/18 FFB spec provides."
I completely agree with you and I even respeced for this fight last week when we had a night to try and get him down.

You are also right that the guild I am in is not like the one I used to be. We are only on General Vezax at the moment and will not be starting any hardmodes until we get Yogg down. I was in a guild that raided 5 days a week for 3:30-4hrs a night. This guild raids 4 nights a week for 3hrs a night. After raiding hardcore for so long even after having a break for the game as long as I did I honestly really am enjoying the more casual approach to the game. As you can see my current guild does not progress through Ulduar as fast for this reason, so I gear towards helping them get through the instance as fast as possible which I think an added AOE bonus does help us do.

I honestly have seen more than a 10% rise in my AOE damage. I am not as geared as you are and I can tell you that on the flower adds approaching Freya and on the Worms near Hodir I am holding 16-17k dps which is far above any other ranged or caster in my group and I am not the best geared, mostly because I have been gone for the past 6 months. I had never held over 12-13k dps before this change, but I have gotten many upgrades in the past two weeks so I am sure that has had a considerable effect as well. The real benefit of this spec is when two mages stack this buff though. You will see a significant rise in your AOE crit % when a second mage stacks Frostbite for you as well. Even EJ.com notes that it works "excellently”.

Frost Channeling - The reduced Blizzard threat is marginally useful, while the boosted mana efficiency is unnecessary if you can properly time an Evocation. Frost Channeling reduces the odds that you'll need to Evocate or run OOM when a fight goes poorly. Not having to Evocate means more time spent doing damage.

Flame Throwing - The extended range means less repositioning needed in fights with movement. It also allows you to position yourself further away in situations where you need to remain spaced out from other players. Yes, with an intelligent raid most of the movement can be avoided, but it only takes one idiot to screw things up. Here's a few situations in Ulduar where extended range can be useful:
Ignis: There's a golem that needs shattering, and you have Hot Streak up. Thanks to the extra 6 yards range, it's more likely you're going to be in range and able to cover for the person that should have been shattering it, but failed. Sure, you could wind up another Frostfire Bolt, but by then it could be too late, or you could be interrupted by flame jets.
Iron Council: Molgeim just tossed down a rune. If it's a death rune, you have more options as to where to exit and still be able to do damage while remaining outside of chain lightning/static disruption range from another player. If it's a rune of power, it's more likely you'll be able to stand in the rune and dps the current target. If you're doing Brundir last, you'll be able to get off more casts while he's flying through the air.
Hodir: Fires and beams can be positioned poorly at times. An extra six yards can be the difference between being able to stand in a fire/beam and cast, or having to reposition.
Freya: This fight is full of movement. Not having to move to dps a tree, find a closer mushroom, or to get within range of an add is a big plus.
Mimiron: Spreading out in phase 1 is helpful. Additional range allows you to stand near the back, and helps keep the raid grouped up within range of the healers. It also helps avoid out of range errors right after a shock blast, if the tank moved away from you to avoid it.
Vezax: Additional range means more Shadow Crashes available to dps in. Not terribly relevant for FFB (you will likely be sticking to FFB spam), but very useful for Fireball spec.
Yogg: Extended range can be very useful in phase 1, depending on the strat being used and your job. In phase 2 it will on average result in less movement, and therefore more dps time.

Great Points.

I personally do not think that Frost Channeling is neccisary for FFB because as I stated before FFB is already more mana efficient than TTW Fireball at its base and TTW Fireball mages have been doing fine for the most part.
I agree that if you must Evocate that this is time spent not casting making it a damage per minute loss so if not specing into Frost Channeling forces you to do this when you otherwise wouldn't have it could in fact be a negative to your dpm.
Once 3.2 hits with the changes to how mana will be returned by our Ignites this may be a mute point though.

Very good points on the fights you listed.

Ignis I would have to say I disagree only in that if you position a few of your casters and ranged close to one pool and a few casters closer to the other then range shouldn't be an issue and also hoping that you have a Pyroblast when they have gone brittle just may not work out. I recommend TTW Fireball for this fight and I personally leave Flamethrowing out of that spec as well for 3/3 in Student of the Mind for the added Crit/Mana/DPS it provides instead of the theoretical one that Flamethrowing does. Lastly, to be honest I have not even been on this duty at all the last few times I have downed him, but that's just me. I can see how it could be useful if you were.

On Hodir I am not so sure I agree either because these light beams for me always seem to be everywhere. I have not had trouble staying in range at all personally, but I can see where the argument can be made. This is a very mobile fight so if the added range can help you stay put more then it might in fact be beneficial esspecially if you are going for a hardmode which requires as much time spent casting as possible. My more casual guild is not there yet either, so example might not apply to me as much as someone who was going for a hardmode. I can see where the argument can be made.

I have not done Iron Council on hardmode, so if your statement is geared toward that then I would have to give it to you as you have done it and I have not. If a rune is down from my experience the tank then brings Molgeim at least within 35 yards because many ranged and casters have this range on their casts as well. To have plus 40 yards range is not the norm and that is why it is a talent for us. I agree that while on Brundir as he is flying through the air some added range could help, but as this is the easy mode once you get to him it's pretty much gg anyway and technically aren't you supposed to be spreading out during this phase to avoid the lightning? Getting greedy while he is in the air for a few extra hits could also get you killed which would be a very bad tradeoff don't you think?

Freya I agree with you that if the added range can help you take down the trees faster than this is a benefit, but so is added AOE power on this fight as well. I think it is the same argument as on Ignis where if you have that instant Pyroblast up (which may or may not be the case) while you’re standing at 41 yards when the tree pops up then it will allow you to cast it right away instead of wasting time moving. I think you should base this decision on one whether or not your guild is having trouble getting the trees down quick enough, and two if you do in fact find that Frostbite is causing problems for the raid on this encounter.
I have not personally had any problems with Frostbite on the AOE portion of this fight (again you could always use Flamestrike), but I am also not doing any hardmodes, so that could completely change in the future. As far as the Snaplasher comments that I have heard. Yes Frostbite can be detrimental to the tank who is on the Snaplasher, so target the Stormlasher and your problem there is solved.

I use TTW Fireball on Mimiron and since this is such a big room and you can spread out all around him do you honestly think that added range is a benefit? I have not noticed any problems making room for people on this fight at all personally, but again hardmodes change everything.
I do not understand what you are saying about the "ranged errors" could you elaborate?

General Vezax is one that I completely agree with you as I said above. My guild had one night on him last week where we were not fortunate enough to get him down because we tried him without any rouges making kicks and interrupts much more difficult. I respect for 2/2 Flamethrowing and 3/3 Frost Channeling because both of these are very useful on this fight (the standard 0/53/18 spec).

Yogg is one that I am just going to have to give to you because you have done him and I have not. I have seen him from a tank perspective only. If you think that added range will be a significant factor then I might consider leaving the range and mana efficiency I spec for on General for Yogg as well and see how it goes from there.

In either case you have brought logic and solid conclusions as to why you believe Flamethrowing to be a serious benefit.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. They have been well noted.

[axxey]

You do know mirror images scale?
What's the opportunity cost of not casting them while your cooldowns are up?

My images personally solo without raid scaling pop up +5k damage if I spend that one global cooldown on them while my cooldowns are running.


I also agree with the many posters and EJ basically saying you're beating a dead horse.
Obvious info repeated over and over, not at all origonal spec.

Half your fight by fight info on TTW uptime is wrong also btw.
Your Rawr quotes are theoretical paper pushing, BiS varies by spec.

[flammadeus]

we get it you like your FFB spec but please condense your information we dont really need your opinion what people want to know is facts. What your doing right now seems like you are trying to force your spec upon others by offering all of your opinions in a massive wall(s) of text. and you have even go off of your own topic by going to macro's. please post your information, or rather your facts and then lock the thread, because to be honest people will "flame" you, and you dont seem to take "flame" very well.

[bluefox]

Ok... firstly, yes well done, greater aoe dmg.(not sarcastic, even if it sounds it)

I will however just say that what RAWR says does not mean that is how it actually occurs in game. Yes it is a good tool but it isn't flawless. Arcane is very viable so don't just write it off because RAWR says it has lower dps. Does RAWR take into account disc priest bubbles on you, or innervate?

Also in terms of pure burst dmg, arc with its cds will pull incredible dmg. I'm not trying to say arc is the best spec, or even better, but at the start of hodir with cds blown it can pull over 20k dps quite easily with max dps rotation. (obviously this is not sustainable) and it drops down to 10k in my gear for the fight. (yes ffb is better over all for this fight.). The point of this is to show the burst potential of arc, and my gear isn't the best in the world.

For grounding razorscale i personally believe the burst from arc is more effective then ffb. (i have used both specs, my current offspec for purposes of testing is ffb).

just my 2 cents

[wannaspoon]

are you geared for ffb on rawr? because ttw/fb scales a lot better with sp, with more haste it destroys ffb. also that isn't a *new* ffb spec...just wasted points in imp blizzard for trash...despite what some believe aoe trash dps doesn't matter, that's when your suppose to take a piss or grab another beer imo, and for boss fights with adds...i'm not gonna be sitting there casting blizzards

[rathofvol]

a great read. I enjoyed it thoroughly.
As FFB is my dual spec, i will certainly try it out on fights like kolo, and yogg. Guess I should of kept the TtW tracker up on Scorchio so i could of realized that damn right arm doesnt get the debuff!

[Ishwar-Area52]

You do know mirror images scale?
What's the opportunity cost of not casting them while your cooldowns are up?

My images personally solo without raid scaling pop up +5k damage if I spend that one global cooldown on them while my cooldowns are running.


I also agree with the many posters and EJ basically saying you're beating a dead horse.
Obvious info repeated over and over, not at all origonal spec.

Half your fight by fight info on TTW uptime is wrong also btw.
Your Rawr quotes are theoretical paper pushing, BiS varies by spec.

I did not say you shouldn't pop Mirror Image and the start of a fight. My rotation when I approach a boss is Living Bomb, Scorch if I have to, Mirror Image, and then pop all cooldowns and trinkets. All backwardpawn was trying to do was "flame me" which was easy to deffend against by saying you should not be poping your Mirror Image along with your cooldowns "less then one second into the fight" because you have wasted a GCD of your cooldown uptime. Notice he had nothing other to say then GTFO. From a debate perpective that is winning.

They did not say I was beating a dead horse on EJ.com they said it was a viable spec, but just to long and if you read there rules they can discriminate against anyone they want too because they specifically state they do not want other peoples "opinions".
I admit that this post is full of mine, but it also has many facts backing them up.

As far as your BIS statement. You are correct that BIS varies from spec to spec and that is why the gear I used to find the best in slot damage for TTW Fireball and FFB were not the same.

we get it you like your FFB spec but please condense your information we dont really need your opinion what people want to know is facts. What your doing right now seems like you are trying to force your spec upon others by offering all of your opinions in a massive wall(s) of text. and you have even go off of your own topic by going to macro's. please post your information, or rather your facts and then lock the thread, because to be honest people will "flame" you, and you dont seem to take "flame" very well.

I am sorry if you did not enjoy my post. I did open up by saying this was a long read and if that does no suit you then this is not the thread for you.

Walls of text are just that, walls of text. Not several paragraphs properly written.

I have no interest of locking the thread or do I care if people flame me as long as they support there "flames" with solid conclusions as extrudedcow did excellently on his thoughts as to why he believes Flamethrowing to be worth specing into for a few encounters. Whether I take his advice or not, as I am not currently in the Hardmodes that his suggestions seemed to mostly be based on, at the moment has nothing to do with the fact that I can completely see why he thinks what he does and respect him for coming up with solid answers as to why he believes them to be true. I hope the rest of you can follow his example. When a guild tries hardmodes for the first time they usually spend a night on him so for say Hodir hardmode after we do get Yogg down I will most take his suggestion and respect for that fight as I will with General Vezax and Yogg (Unless I find that TTW Fireball is ahead on this fight even though the tentacles will not have the benefit of TTW).

The facts you say I do not have in this post is also incorrect. I stopped to quote RAWR, wowwiki.com, and elitistjerks.com as often as I could almost to a fault as you so eloquently put that this post is just too long.

are you geared for ffb on rawr? because ttw/fb scales a lot better with sp, with more haste it destroys ffb. also that isn't a *new* ffb spec...just wasted points in imp blizzard for trash...despite what some believe aoe trash dps doesn't matter, that's when your suppose to take a piss or grab another beer imo, and for boss fights with adds...i'm not gonna be sitting there casting blizzards

For only being in Ulduar 2 weeks now to be Under the BIS dps by 700 I think is pretty solid in my opinion, geared for FFB or not. You want to make the claim that FFB scales better than TTW as it relates to haste then you are very correct sir. I disagree that it scales better with overall gear as I showed in my example of what the best in slot gear puts out for both specs though. I guess you are asking why I took an item like The Lifebinder when as it has 120 haste on it and why the few yellow sockets I have are gemmed with SP and Haste instead of SP and Crit gems. One because that mainhand was a massive upgrade, two because I do use TTW Fireball on many of the Boss encounters in Ulduar which haste is better for, and three because as far as the 3 gems in my gear are concerned we are talking like a 5 dps difference from haste over crit for these gems as it relates to FFB with that 5 dps going to TTW Fireball.

I agree completely that Arcane has incredible burst damage and can be very alluring to someone who says "hey I just spiked to 20k on Hodir" or even 25-30k on General, but as far as sustained damage is concerned, which in my opinion is what Ulduar is about, Arcane falls behind FFB and TTW Fireball as noted by RAWR. I think this is mostly due to PVP nerf it got not too long ago, but we will see how the 12% nerf to the mana cost of Arcane Blast effects its overall rotation. If you can spend more time on Arcane Blast then before then it might once again be competitive. Hodir may be a prime example in Ulduar for Arcane because that fight is all about run to the beam and burst damage, oh an iceblock is falling on my head, run to the next beam and burst damage, get on the snowpile then run to the beam and burstdamage. If this fight suits Arcane better then FFB or TTW Fireball in your opinion then I might be willing to try it out if and when we do him on hardmode. Though I must say that this would be even more of a range hit that extrudedcow believes to be very important on this encounter.

Casting Blizzard on boss fights with adds is exactly what you should be doing and if you are "taking a piss or grabbing another beer" while others are carrying you to the next boss don't you think that makes you "dead weight"?

a great read. I enjoyed it thoroughly.
As FFB is my dual spec, i will certainly try it out on fights like kolo, and yogg. Guess I should of kept the TtW tracker up on Scorchio so i could of realized that damn right arm doesnt get the debuff!

Thank you for your compliment.
I did the best I could in explaining my opinions as to why I think this spec to be an Improvement over the old one for what cases I believe it to be. I know it is long, but thank you for reading it.

[Backwardpawn]

You dodge shit so well ish, it's like some sort of super power.

[Ishwar-Area52]

You dodge shit so well ish, it's like some sort of super power.

I am at a loss as to what has been dodged as I have replied to every comment made to the best of my ability, but I guess that sounds like more of a compliment then a burn. Thanks?

[Weenietot]

You dodge shit so well ish, it's like some sort of super power.

I haven't decided if he's like the Energizer Bunny (he keeps going and going and going) or the Teflon Don of WoW (because nothing sticks on him and he dodges everything like Neo from the Matrix).

I'm so proud of my little Ishy, using quotes!

[jhemfl]

You need to be banned for this crap, or at least have your post size limited. If a guild is serious in Ulduar, not a single decent raid leader will give a damn about trash and AoE damage. Improving your DPS for AoE and trash is so completely irrelevant to anything involved in raiding. Not a single fight in Ulduar is based on AoE damage to the point where you need to spec for it. Drop the lame topics, you are completely wasting brain power by scheming this crap up.

Single target, Fireball blows FFB out of the water every single time. Plus, FFB is completely more RNG than Fireball is.

[errosync]

I tried to read all of the really long walls, I really did. I liked the evidence you presented, and it sounded good.

But it still has fatal flaws, namely:

1. You're using a simulator. Simulators are great, but this takes into account the Best Possible raid comp, best possible buffs, best possible fight (Tank and spank with no movement). Simulators will give you a Patchwork esque-fight readout, and that's about as useful as it gets. It is a crutch and a guide, nothing more. Many people who shaman craft quote readouts by EnhanceSim and RAWR and fail to realize that fights are not built around standing around. Sims are guides, not tools that should be believed 100% truth.

2. Trash does not matter. Ever. Most players quote meters that are influenced strictly on trash, which is why I tell anyone in heroic blues to shut up about their terrible dps. Only boss dps matters in a raid setting because , no matter how much trash you kill, you'll always see results from a boss, as well as rewards, and rarely if ever from trash. It offers skewed damage and DPS representation. When I raid, I'm not taken for the 20k or so dps I can do with stuff popped on trash, I'm taken for the fact I can descurse, spellsteal, counterspell appropriately and for the singular fact that when I get to a boss, I do what I'm supposed to to kill him. And I do take piss breaks and food breaks during trash. It does put me lower on the overall, but it doesn't matter since I'll still be doing 5k on bosses.

3. The walls of text, though insightful, were unecessary. Wording needs to be concised down if you truly want anyone to read what you're saying and not respond as if they came off a 10 hour shift. This is a wall of text that I'm writing that is cleverly disguiesd by spacing of paragraphs and well used spelling and grammar. That doesn't change the fact that "wall" means large amount of text, not just innane babble of text that doesn't do anything useful. The intro, like many have already said, is more or less "FFB can have more AoE capability than it does, and here's the spec", which doesn't even apply to any bossfight outside of Freya or XT if you still tank him not between two piles.

As for the spec variations themselves: Why put points into shatter? You don' thave Fingers of Frost, which is the only benefit FFB could get from the talent, and that makes a hybrid tree, which makes for terrible raid dps. Why do you have Flame Throwing in two of your builds, when it doesn't affect FFB at all? Why is there Combustion in all your specs, when it is a lackluster talent at best, and adds to RNG. As well, if you're FFB and hitcapped, you should have plenty of crit to make Combustion all but worthless. Also, we know that threat isn't additive, but the point of Frost Channeling is the Mana reduction. I know you're advocating 16k dps on trash, but what's the advantage of no Mana Reduction overall for extra AoE damage that only works on a singular fight?

I ran out my own spec:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...&version=10072

The only quesitonable talent happens to be Frost Warding, and I only took it for mana conservation purposes on select boss fights. I know FFB and FB don't have many mana issues, but mana back equates to more time dpsing and less times using gems, pots and Evocates. As well, I couldn't find a better talent to sink 2 points into.

I have nothing else to say except a TLDR: I apologize for the wall, and thank you for your specs and opinions. It's been thought of before, and in the interest of not considering mostly unhelpful trash DPS counts, it's not the cookie-cutter spec, or improved. It's simply an AoE variant, and while interesting, isn't enough to make myself personally respecc, or convince myself or others that the added AoE dps really puts it above Arcane of Fireball/TtW.

[coolcatchris]

wall of sense.

what errosync said, in entirety.

[taureninator]

i dont think theres any debate on the fact that having ffb and fireball dual specced is useful as you can switch depending on the situation, but since i pvp frost i was forced to choose one that brought the most dps and that is the fireball spec

if you go and look at all the top damage done by mages in the world on WMO you will see 90% of them are all fireball spec, and the rest being arcane

this becomes even more clear as guilds start working on hardmodes, where if you can bring that extra little dps it can make or break a fight

as to your point on hodir HM i was wondering if you had a wws or any proof to FFB being more dps on that fight, because i have tried it and had very negative results

also, the fact your guild has not downed yogg yet unfortunately hinders the validity of your claims - im sorry but it does - you cannot expect to make claims about a spec being better when you have not done much of the hardest content out there

[Ishwar-Area52]

1. You're using a simulator. Simulators are great, but this takes into account the Best Possible raid comp, best possible buffs, best possible fight (Tank and spank with no movement). Simulators will give you a Patchwork esque-fight readout, and that's about as useful as it gets. It is a crutch and a guide, nothing more. Many people who shaman craft quote readouts by EnhanceSim and RAWR and fail to realize that fights are not built around standing around. Sims are guides, not tools that should be believed 100% truth.

I used much more than just RAWR in my post, but you are correct in that it is a simulator. You are incorrect that you cannot change any statistic of a fight in this simulator that you see fit. You can change dps time in relation to how long the fight is itself. You can change what buffs the raid does and does not have. You can change how long the fight is itself. You can change how many adds you might come in contact with and also the level of these adds. You can change every mechanic about the fight as you see fit, so as you can see it is far from just a Patchwork simulator. It is a nice attempt to devaluate RAWR to suit your own personal opinions that go against what it says though even if it didn't exactly work out for you.

2. Trash does not matter. Ever. Most players quote meters that are influenced strictly on trash, which is why I tell anyone in heroic blues to shut up about their terrible dps. Only boss dps matters in a raid setting because , no matter how much trash you kill, you'll always see results from a boss, as well as rewards, and rarely if ever from trash. It offers skewed damage and DPS representation. When I raid, I'm not taken for the 20k or so dps I can do with stuff popped on trash, I'm taken for the fact I can descurse, spellsteal, counterspell appropriately and for the singular fact that when I get to a boss, I do what I'm supposed to to kill him. And I do take piss breaks and food breaks during trash. It does put me lower on the overall, but it doesn't matter since I'll still be doing 5k on bosses.

I disagree that trash does not matter "ever". It matters in that the faster you get through trash the quicker you get to the boss.

There is AOE on Razorscale, XT, Auriaya, Freya, Thorum (if you are in the arena before phase 2), and minimal AOE on Mimiron though I agree that in most of these encounters the added AOE damage boost of one or even two mages will most likely not make or break your fight.

You should not be taking "food or piss" breaks during trashs as you are nothing more than dead weight if you do.

I also do well over 5k on bosses while leading overall damage too, so which is better?

3. The walls of text, though insightful, were unecessary. Wording needs to be concised down if you truly want anyone to read what you're saying and not respond as if they came off a 10 hour shift. This is a wall of text that I'm writing that is cleverly disguiesd by spacing of paragraphs and well used spelling and grammar. That doesn't change the fact that "wall" means large amount of text, not just innane babble of text that doesn't do anything useful. The intro, like many have already said, is more or less "FFB can have more AoE capability than it does, and here's the spec", which doesn't even apply to any bossfight outside of Freya or XT if you still tank him not between two piles.

I disagree that what you wrote is a wall of text. A wall of text is something that is not properly spaced, punctuated, or correctly broken up into paragraphs.
Your own opinion on what is a wall of text is noted, though from a factual perspective is just incorrect.

If you disagree that added AOE damage is not useful which makes alot of sense in that whoever you raid with completely carries you from boss to boss (this would get you kicked from any top guild that I have ever heard of by the way) then I completely understand that any spec which offers added AOE damage at the loss of Flamethrowing and Frost Channeling would mean nothing to you.

You want me to cut down my titles and long ongoing conclusions when you could have done the same by saying something like. "While my guild (or pug) is working hard to get from boss to boss I stand around and get drunk, so I could care less about AOE and even during boss fights when large amounts of AOE are going on I could also care less."
Wouldn't that have about summed it up?

As for the spec variations themselves: Why put points into shatter? You don' thave Fingers of Frost, which is the only benefit FFB could get from the talent, and that makes a hybrid tree, which makes for terrible raid dps. Why do you have Flame Throwing in two of your builds, when it doesn't affect FFB at all? Why is there Combustion in all your specs, when it is a lackluster talent at best, and adds to RNG. As well, if you're FFB and hitcapped, you should have plenty of crit to make Combustion all but worthless. Also, we know that threat isn't additive, but the point of Frost Channeling is the Mana reduction. I know you're advocating 16k dps on trash, but what's the advantage of no Mana Reduction overall for extra AoE damage that only works on a singular fight?

The only thing that this spec loses from a Boss dps standpoint is possibly having to Evocate due to not specing into Frost Channeling which will not even be a forethought once 3.2 hits with the added mana returned from Ignite.

I do not have Flamethrowing in either of my two specs so I do not know what you are going on about there at all.

Combustion may be a smaller dps talent than it used to be, but RAWR still gives it 32 dps and I always take talents that boost dps minimal as they may be.

I personally do not have any mana issues at all with or without Frost Channeling and only spec into it because I am hit capped without it currently (this will change soon enough). FFB has too much mana in my opinion. I say that because I have ended boss fights without using Potions or Evocating with over 18k mana left on my bar from Mana gems and raid mana regeneration alone. If this is the case then why spec for more mana (especially once 3.2 hits)?

Basically what you’re saying is that you do not like the FFB spec period. My question then is why did you even begin to read this thread or comment on it at all?

I have nothing else to say except a TLDR: I apologize for the wall, and thank you for your specs and opinions. It's been thought of before, and in the interest of not considering mostly unhelpful trash DPS counts, it's not the cookie-cutter spec, or improved. It's simply an AoE variant, and while interesting, isn't enough to make myself personally respecc, or convince myself or others that the added AoE dps really puts it above Arcane of Fireball/TtW.

Again what you wrote was not a wall of text.

I understand why someone like yourself would say this is not an improvement. For a guy who gets wasted while others carry him from boss to boss I get that AOE means nothing to you, so even an AOE variant that sacrifices nothing but Flamethrowing (which you said we don't need yourself) and Frost Channeling (when you know we do not have mana problems at all) would of course mean nothing to you even if it does help on some bosses as well.

Please do not assume to speak for anyone but yourself because you do not.

You are right that it is not the cookie cutter FFB spec.

Arcane is behind both FFB and TTW Fireball specs.

FFB is less than 5% behind TTW Fireball and ahead on fights where TTW is unable to apply, where significant AOE is a factor, and when heavy burst damage comes into play.

[taureninator]

i will go arcane and demolish your ffb spec anyday