Mutilate Rotation

[Denide]

I understand that some will counter this with positive and negative conclusions however I am posting because I am curious.


I am challenging all the mutilate rogues to only use envenom at 4-5 points ona target, no bleed effects, and post here if you see an increase or decrease in your boss damage.

Thanks,

[Amstelkid]

I wonder, I know for combat its better to not use rupture. So, I'm really curious how this will end for mutilate.
The only less good part is, if the mod doesn't have 'any' bleed effect on him. Then you need atleast 1/2cp rupture it :

[Annoying]

I wonder, I know for combat its better to not use rupture. So, I'm really curious how this will end for mutilate.
The only less good part is, if the mod doesn't have 'any' bleed effect on him. Then you need atleast 1/2cp rupture it :

I don't know what jacked site you are getting your info, but rupture is far and wide worth it for both mutilate with or without tier 8 4set. The only exception is hodir without 4set, the crit damage buff makes evisc or envenom more worth the energy.

[Denide]

I don't know what jacked site you are getting your info, but rupture is far and wide worth it for both mutilate with or without tier 8 4set. The only exception is hodir without 4set, the crit damage buff makes evisc or envenom more worth the energy.

Well, lets see some examples Annoying.

I imagine this will take 2 weeks per rogue to post. 1 week of just envenom and 1 week adding bleed effects.

[Grindfreak]

Well, lets see some examples Annoying.

I imagine this will take 2 weeks per rogue to post. 1 week of just envenom and 1 week adding bleed effects.

During this time they will in most cases not have the same raid group setup and some might have received gear upgrades.

[Annoying]

During this time they will in most cases not have the same raid group setup and some might have received gear upgrades.

Or during this period, they will have consulted a spreadsheet, researched on EJ, or looked at numerous WWS' already available that clearly show the advantage of rupture.

[Grindfreak]

Or during this period, they will have consulted a spreadsheet, researched on EJ, or looked at numerous WWS' already available that clearly show the advantage of rupture.

Hehehehehe

[Amstelkid]

I don't know what jacked site you are getting your info, but rupture is far and wide worth it for both mutilate with or without tier 8 4set. The only exception is hodir without 4set, the crit damage buff makes evisc or envenom more worth the energy.

I don't have 4/5 parts of tier 8, till then I'm using my best burst and thats evisc for me :
Yes, rupture is making use of your AP. But 8k rupture doesn't beat my 10k-12k Evisc.

[K4ge]

It's worth it, end of story...
Consult a spreadsheet.

[Taraxacum]

I'd say if you want to see how much of a DPS loss this is - go visit a target dummy.

The problem is that despite the envenom showing you a nice large number (presuming it crtis and does not get any resist) you are loosing quite a few DoTs. You loose the stack of deadly poision, which although will get built up it still wont do as much as if it's left there longer. You will also never get the DoT from the Rupture. Hopefuly you will have someone else providing the bleeds for you otherwise you'll loose HfB as well.

Taking a look at some stats from me in my average Ulduar gear (2 set T8 not the 4 set), my deadly stacks tick for around 2k and a rupture around 1k, so I'd be looking at around a 4k DPS loss IF I got the stacks back up nice and quick.

The only time this is a good thing to do is when the mob is NOT going to live to the end of the rupture, i.e. trash.

[Grindfreak]

I don't have 4/5 parts of tier 8, till then I'm using my best burst and thats evisc for me :
Yes, rupture is making use of your AP. But 8k rupture doesn't beat my 10k-12k Evisc.

Considering that you spent 35 energy on that eviscerate instead of 25 with rupture.

and the fact that you are gambling on that your eviscerate will crit or not.

Honestly doubt you'll end up making more overall dps with using eviscerate alone in the long run
unless you make some really lucky crit sprees.


btw, they are talking about mutilate rotations, which assumes envenom, you're talking about combat right?

[Voij]

I'd say if you want to see how much of a DPS loss this is - go visit a target dummy.

The problem is that despite the envenom showing you a nice large number (presuming it crtis and does not get any resist) you are loosing quite a few DoTs. You loose the stack of deadly poision, which although will get built up it still wont do as much as if it's left there longer. You will also never get the DoT from the Rupture. Hopefuly you will have someone else providing the bleeds for you otherwise you'll loose HfB as well.

Taking a look at some stats from me in my average Ulduar gear (2 set T8 not the 4 set), my deadly stacks tick for around 2k and a rupture around 1k, so I'd be looking at around a 4k DPS loss IF I got the stacks back up nice and quick.

The only time this is a good thing to do is when the mob is NOT going to live to the end of the rupture, i.e. trash.

If you envenom right after DP ticked, then use Mutilate before it ticks again, you'll end up with a 4-5stack DP on the next tick. (Requires quite some micro-management, but this actually does work and provides a nice dps-increase compared to just using your skills like a Combat Rogue would.)

[lament]

If you envenom right after DP ticked, then use Mutilate before it ticks again, you'll end up with a 4-5stack DP on the next tick. (Requires quite some micro-management, but this actually does work and provides a nice dps-increase compared to just using your skills like a Combat Rogue would.)

what's the name of that poison timer addon again?

[Voij]

what's the name of that poison timer addon again?

It's a combination of two:
a) sctd
b) "my eyes"

Just take a look at your combatlog/whatever and keep a watch out for when your DP ticks, it's not all that difficult. (You won't get it done 100% of the time though, which is natural.)

[GAfo]

Ok it's kinda obvious for all the decent rogues out there that rupture is the best option atm, but let's also make it clear for the ones that still think rupture < evis/envenom.

I'm talking about NO t8, with t8 rup is by faaaaar the best option.

+: Rupture has the best damage per energy
+: Rupture deal more damage then a non crit evis/envenom so unless you have 100% crit rup>evis/envenom (due to the energy you save)
+: Simple math, if you spend less energy (using rup) you'll be able to make more skills/finishers
+: more finishers = more energy gained

The only fights where it's worth to skip rupture sometimes are Hodir and Vezax(as mut);
Hodir due to the crit damage buff.
Vezax if your tank is kiting him near crashes so you can get the spelldamage buff (works with envenom+poisons).

If you make less dps with rupture it's simply becouse you are not doing the right things or you are using it on mobs that doesn't last alive for a full rupture (see trash/heroics).

Hope it helped.

[Denide]

I'm not in to theory crafting or spreadsheets, what I am in to is looking at my stats after a night of raiding, knowing my hit and exp caps and geming for ap. What I see is a pretty drastic inscrease in dps if I ip/dp and only mut and env my targets, especially bosses.

This is why I am posting this challenge here with my rogue peers to see if the same results are occuring, not on paper, but on your meters.

Thanks,

[Voij]

I'm not in to theory crafting or spreadsheets, what I am in to is looking at my stats after a night of raiding, knowing my hit and exp caps and geming for ap. What I see is a pretty drastic inscrease in dps if I ip/dp and only mut and env my targets, especially bosses.

This is why I am posting this challenge here with my rogue peers to see if the same results are occuring, not on paper, but on your meters.

Thanks,

Chances of surviving a hand-to-claw fight against a bengalian tiger is ~10%, so there's at least one person who succesfully did it.

Sooo... you gonna go and fight a tiger or what? I mean... somebody did survive it, so maybe your chances of surviving are actually higher then what statistics state? Just go at it and tell us the result, or... well... I guess we won't know whether you've won or lost if you lost the fight... Meh -.-

[Auchinfail]

It's a combination of two:
a) sctd
b) "my eyes"

I realize you mentioned monitoring combat log for ticks, but also watching sct. Nub question inc, but when SCT flashes 'Envenom', is it notifying you the DP has ticked, and is thus optimum envenom time?

[Nvaheal]

I'm not in to theory crafting or spreadsheets, what I am in to is looking at my stats after a night of raiding, knowing my hit and exp caps and geming for ap. What I see is a pretty drastic inscrease in dps if I ip/dp and only mut and env my targets, especially bosses.

This is why I am posting this challenge here with my rogue peers to see if the same results are occuring, not on paper, but on your meters.

Thanks,

Ok so if you are a GM and you dont know how to maximise your own classes Dps what the hell are you wasting our time. You want to know the ideal dps? Spreadsheet it. Why would a rogue who knows how to maximise their dps want to lower it by trying what you are proposing.

Instead of wasting your time waiting for a response go troll EJ's forums and try searching for this topic i am sure it has come up a million times before.

[Denide]

EJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJ

Come on guys, are you serious, do you really need everything on paper? This is a challenge to enlighten myself and the rest of you in attempting this rotation for a higher overall dps outcome. I accept that this will be knocked around a bit and thats fine, but atleast test it out and see it for yourself as I have.

I am 3/4 T8.5 so yes when I snag my 4th piece i'll be adding bleed effects back to rotation. If I dont see a difference, I will go back.

And yes, I am all about maximizing my dps to pull my raid weight, which is why I bring this to you all.