Elemental Warding

[ramsesakama]

Personally, I dropped Eye of the Storm for EW, with the reason "You shouldn't get much interrupted in raids".
Now I'm not so sure anymore. Bosses such as Mimiron and Freya can be rather anoying with spell pushback.

I tried this once, but Vesperon's Twilight Torment would cause pushback on 3-drake Sartharion, so I decided it wasn't worth it. It's possible that Frozen Blows and other AoE effects do the same thing, but I never investigated.

[ramsesakama]

/bump

Here's a video of me doing hard mode Thorim, with 3 points dropped from Convection and placed instead in Elemental Warding:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hphta3CY7Ic

Note that, past 2:15 I don't even bother to refresh water shield, or use TS even once. Yet, by the end of the fight I still have 60+% mana.

It's dumb not to have 3 points in Elemental Warding.

[Deleted]

and BLOODLUST will NOT get you through hardmodes if your raid can't do it without using BL.

/fixed

I know this is drastic.. just wanted to show something... (Blizz said that fights should not be impossible without Bloodlust)

It's true that nothing really changes when one player in the raid takes 6% less damage. It's tiny, mostly not even worth mentioning.
But it IS better than doing nothing at all.

The best example has already been said... Algalon.
Now... for the best guilds it's not THAT important if one person dies.
But for guilds who still have great problems with him, it might be unacceptable if a person dies.
Because if you die, your raid loses ~50-100k damage, or heal, or whatever, even when ressing you.
Now... you have 1 hour each week... what would happen if you'd have exactly one nearly perfect try... and in exactly THAT try, YOU took 1300 damage too much. It doesn't happen that often, but it happens... and all because you didn't take EW.
So because you choose 80% mana over 60% mana at the end of the fight, your guild couldn't kill Algalon. (well, at least you've killed that one try)


Soooo... as many have said... it's just plain STUPID not to take it. The other talents are just bad... so you could see those points as free points.
And we all how to spent free talent points.

[Deleted]

Usually I would not spec into something like this.

But seeing as I can go 5 minutes in a normal 10 man raid using TS every CD and killing the boss with 5kdps and 85% of my mana left, WHY THE FUCK NOT?

[Clockwork Pinkie]

So you want me to get 6% reduction because a healer cant heal a shammy?
1) If you need it, get a better healer.
2) If you're getting hit by trash to much, do less deeps.
3) If AoE damage on XT, Hodir, drops you down to low, get more gear.
4) f you're taking damage other than AoE damage, you or the raid is doing something wrong.
5) PvP talent is PvP talent.

There are other, and far more important things to use the 3 points in.

[Deleted]

So you want me to get 6% reduction because a healer cant heal a shammy?
1) If you need it, get a better healer.
2) If you're getting hit by trash to much, do less deeps.
3) If AoE damage on XT, Hodir, drops you down to low, get more gear.
4) f you're taking damage other than AoE damage, you or the raid is doing something wrong.
5) PvP talent is PvP talent.

There are other, and far more important things to use the 3 points in.

It's NOT about healers not healing a shammy. It's about shammies DIEING from to much damage at once. And THAT's something that can situationally be stopped by EW.
Sooo... if you take 25k damage on Algalon, because you're unlucky with the Cosmic Smashs and at a collapsing star dies in the same second, you need to get better healers? Or better gear?
I mean.. don't know about you, but getting >20k damage in less than one second isn't that uncommon. (At least at Algalon.. might be a fight very few of you ever see, but still)

There is simply no better talent. Period.
And here's the important thing...


IT DOES NOTHING FOR YOUR RAID WHEN YOU END A FIGHT WITH 80% MANA!
So just end it with 60% mana and take less damage.

[Clockwork Pinkie]

It's NOT about healers not healing a shammy. It's about shammies DIEING from to much damage at once. And THAT's something that can situationally be stopped by EW.
Sooo... if you take 25k damage on Algalon, because you're unlucky with the Cosmic Smashs and at a collapsing star dies in the same second, you need to get better healers? Or better gear?
I mean.. don't know about you, but getting >20k damage in less than one second isn't that uncommon. (At least at Algalon.. might be a fight very few of you ever see, but still)

There is simply no better talent. Period.
And here's the important thing...


IT DOES NOTHING FOR YOUR RAID WHEN YOU END A FIGHT WITH 80% MANA!
So just end it with 60% mana and take less damage.

Really? So being the reason you spec into said non-PvE talent is because you get unlucky on fights? If that is so, learn the fights, get DBM. It's better to have mana than no mana and sit their doing nothing, waiting for mana, espically when you're carrying the raid in dps.

[Perudo]

Why do I think that the nay sayers in this thread is the dps horny people in a raid?

I would say its darn useful on many of the hard modes in Ulduar. (yes, I know im not a raider. Never done any hard modes in Ulduar25. But I have seen my friend do a couple of them.)

think like this, a dead dps is zero dps, so taking 6% less damage is a darn good thing.

[Deleted]

Really? So being the reason you spec into said non-PvE talent is because you get unlucky on fights? If that is so, learn the fights, get DBM. It's better to have mana than no mana and sit their doing nothing, waiting for mana, espically when you're carrying the raid in dps.

Great thing there's armory.... so how should I start...

First of all: There is absolutely NO f'king fight in Ulduar where you can go oom. NON!
I've done ALL 25 man Hardmodes and there is NO FIGHT where you can run oom. And that's with ZERO points in Convection and not even using TS on CD.
Even Vezax Hardmode is no problem, you'll just have to change your spec for that. (I put 5 points into Convection and still end the fight with ~40-50% mana, so I could take some out of it too.)
Here's my armory, for you to see those specs:
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-ta...Dadimi&group=1
I know I've got 2 points in Guardian Totems in my first spec and I'm keeping 'em there. Why? BECAUSE IT DOES MORE FOR ME THAN CONVECTION!
I just don't need Convection. And YOU shouldn't need it either.


Now to you...
You've done nearly no Hardmodes... not even one 25man Hardmode... Guess you've not even seen a whole Algalon Fight.(Video) So let me tell you something...
At Algalon there is Damage you can't avoid.
1.) www.wowhead.com/?spell=65108 :Happens when you kill a collapsed star. (Must be killed and are killed ~every 15-20 seconds, I believe)
This damage affects THE WHOLE RAID and can't be avoided.
2.) www.wowhead.com/?spell=64596 : Now what isn't written there, is that you only get that huge damage when close to the impact point. (marked as the "void zone"-spell you know from KT)
BUT, everyone gets damage from those. When they are on the other side of the room, you still get (don't know the exact amount) ~3k damage. When they spawn around you (let's say in a triangle directly around you), you won't get off with less than 9k damage.
3.) www.wowhead.com/?spell=64599 : This is being used by the Living Constellations... there are ways to deal with them, but when they spawn the first few shots go to random players. (had the feeling that it happens later too... but not sure)

Sooo... let's say you get unlucky and don't absorb much from Black Hole Explosion. At the same moment a Living Constellation fires at you. And half a second later the three Cosmic Smashs hit the ground. Now... there is a chance that, with EW, you'd survive it, while you'd die without it. (at 24k HP, EW equals 1.44k HP)
Or you get a whole lot of damage and one more healer gives you a flash heal.. and at the same time another player takes unexpectedly high damage and then dies, because they had to heal you instead of the other one. (ain't happening often.. but still)


So.. to our next point... how do YOU dare telling people how to spec?
You've got TWO specs with 3/5 Thundering Strikes and 2/2 Improved Ghost Wolf.
I can understand that you do so for your PvP-Spec... but doing this for PvE ist plain stupid and shows that you have no clue about your shaman.
Another clue for that is the choice of your gems. I mean... come on, how much can people fail with gemming?
It ain't that hard... you put 19 SP in red sockets, 27 SP in blue sockets and 9 SP/8 Haste in yellow sockets. (Assuming you need the socket bonus)
Replace the gem in your bracers with a 19 SP one.
Put the prismatic into your head.
Take that 16 Crit out of your chest and replace it with 9 SP/8 Haste. (Or 9 SP/8 Crit... if you really don't want to have any more haste)
Take the prismatic from your neck and replace it with 19 SP.
Put a 9 SP/8 Haste (or 8 Crit) into your hands.
Put the prismatic from your neck into your legs.
Aaaand put on your hit-trinket.



Well, that's all for now.. just accept it, EW is better than the other talents we can take.

[Clockwork Pinkie]

Hmm, no. All you're showing me is raid damage done if "to close" to something or if you're standing in something you shouldn't be standing in. Do you put those points in so you can get an extra cast off/Or that you want to look good on meters and move halfway out to do more damage? That's not being very helpful to your raid now is it. They'd rather have you move out and loose that dps for the 2 seconds than be dead the whole fight. Don't criticize my spec for you miscalculations. Raid damage happens. If you want to avoid it fine, but opinions will be opinions. Don't get to cocky that you got carried through hard-modes.

[Deleted]

Hmm, no. All you're showing me is raid damage done if "to close" to something or if you're standing in something you shouldn't be standing in. Do you put those points in so you can get an extra cast off/Or that you want to look good and meters and move halfway out to do more damage? That's not being very helpful to your raid now is it. They'd rather have you move out and loose that dps for the 2 seconds than be dead the whole fight. Don't criticize my spec for you miscalculations. Raid damage happens. If you want to avoid it fine, but opinions will be opinions. Don't get to cocky that you got carried through hard-modes.

Black Hole Explosion affects the whole Raid. THE F'KING WHOLE RAID. YOU CAN'T MOVE OUT OF IT. If you still don't understand... just think of Naj'entus in BT, where everyone took the damage when his shield was destroyed. You can't avoid it in any way. (Shield destroyed = Collapsing Star killed)
Cosmic Smash also hits THE WHOLE RAID. It's just that you get launched into the air and take 50k damage when you stand directly in it. The damage is lowered the farther you're away from it, but even when you're ~15 yards away you'll still get hit by ~3k. (From ONE of those... three are there in 25man)
And the damage from living constellations can't be avoided either, as they move through the room. (And arcane barrage can hit everyone too...)
So don't talk about shit you have no clue about.

And don't look down on me... In contrast to you I know how those fights work and what I have to do... and I don't fail at those things.
Now.. for your spec... it's got nothing to do with miscalculations or anything, when you put 2 points into Improved Ghost Wolf instead of taking those 2% crit.
There are 3! bosses in Ulduar, where you can use Ghost Wolf. That's Razorscale, (minimal use... not really worth it) Ignis (nearly no use at all) and Xt. (pretty useful here)
In contrast to that you have 13! bosses where those 2% crit give you more dps. It's just plain stupid to take Improved Ghost Wolf over a DPS-talent. (pve-wise)


PS: Raid damage happens... well, too much damage happens too and if you'd have survived with 1.4k more HP but instead died... it may not be seen like that, but it is >YOUR FAULT FOR NOT TAKING EW!<
PPS: Here's the deal... let me see a fight where you go OOM and then we can discuss further.

[Clockwork Pinkie]

Kay, so, black hole affects the whole raid, you cant miss it, does everyone spec into damage reducing, just for Algalon? No, they do not. Getting hit for 3kx3 is what happens on Algalon, should i spec into it just for the Algalon fight that i know i wont be visiting any time soon? Nope. So please, tell me why i should spec 3/3 into it, if all you're showing me is damage done by Algalon. Should we rename this thread "Spec 3/3 EW for Algalon?". And again, this thread you made is about your spec, not mine, stay on topic please.

[Deleted]

Kay, so, black hole affects the whole raid, you cant miss it, does everyone spec into damage reducing, just for Algalon? No, they do not. Getting hit for 3kx3 is what happens on Algalon, should i spec into it just for the Algalon fight that i know i wont be visiting any time soon? Nope. So please, tell me why i should spec 3/3 into it, if all you're showing me is damage done by Algalon. Should we rename this thread "Spec 3/3 EW for Algalon?". And again, this thread you made is about your spec, not mine, stay on topic please.

I write it again... tell me ONE fight where you go OOM. Just ONE is enough... because... well... if there is no fight where you're in danger of going oom... then why put the points in Convection? It's the same argumentation you use, though mine makes sense.
Algalon is the extreme... I don't know any other fight where you get so much damage in that short amount of time.
BUT 6% reduced damage helps in nearly every fight where there is raid damage involved.
It's just that in most fights, the healers can make the talent nearly unimportant... but still, it does more for you than having 4k Mana that AREN'T GOING TO BE USED.

So.. in short... your whole theory fails if you can't tell me a fight where you nearly go oom.

[Clockwork Pinkie]

You can go oom on every fight there is in Ulduar, you can get damaged from every right there is in Ulduar. My guild is still in the process in of clearing Ulduar, as you can see. People die, i have to use more mana, i'm using thunderstorm every time it's up, but i still have to use more mana for the people that died. Sorry not everyone in the World of Warcraft is a hardcore raider. Maybe once i get a solid group ill take points out of convection and put them elsewhere, but until then, I'll spec into convection, kthx.

[Deleted]

Not enough people are advocating for Elemental Warding, the 6% damage reduction talent in Elemental tree. So to put my two cents: every decently geared Elemental Shaman should have this talent if they want to do end-game raiding. But it's not a good investment for 5-man heroics or leveling.
1) You've died and ankh'd
2) You're spamming chain lightning
3) You're spamming shocks*
4) Your raid has no replenish
5) You aren't using TS when it's off CD
6) You aren't refreshing WS when it's down

* If you really need to spam shocks on some fight, just pick up SF with the extra point; problem solved.

If you're doing 1, then don't. If you're doing 2, 3 or 4, then there's probably something wrong with you or your raid setup. And if you can't find time to remedy 5 or 6, you need to learn to hot key WS/TS and use them while running.

Just wanted to quote that, to show what the thread is about...
The thread was not about shitty guilds that fail wherever they go. Because you can't adjust your talents for those ones. (there's just too many things you should have to do...)
It is about end-game raiding AND having a good raid composition.
I mean.. all you need is BoK, BoW, Arcane Intellect, MotW and Replenishment. That's all there is for us elementals. And come on... if your raid can't even get that together, then please GTFO.


So... I once was in your situation, 12/13 Ulduar25 and a not so great guild... I hadn't had your gear... but there was still no way I'd ever go oom.
As you can reed in points 1 to 6... there's hell of a lot of things you can do to prevent going oom. I mean... I never chained TS... only used it for mana when I was below 40% or had nothing else to do. And one more thing... if you go oom... then how the hell do your healers manage to keep the raid alive for so long?
Elemental Shamans are the last ones that go oom... all other raid members, including most healers, should be oom way before you.
I mean... there was this time when they introduced T8. There was mp5 on 3 pieces.. so some elementals made calculations and tests.
And guess what... some of them could go ~15 minutes before they were oom(raidbuffed), just because they knew how to do it.

So the only way you, who puts 5 points into convection and uses TS every CD, could go oom, is when you are needed to heal someone, right? And in this case I'd like to quote something...

1) If you need it, get a better healer.

[Schippi]

my25raid isnt THAT good but working on our first watcher hardmodes.

you cant f** go oom even when we progressed. there is NO way. i rarly need to renew WS. on some long encounters like XT hard i have to renew it but every fight under 8minutes i dont have to recast it - ONCE.
EW is a must. period. no discussion.

link a video where you go oom and we will tell you what you made wrong. there is no way you could convince me that convection is better

armory for the sake of god
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...ormu&n=Schippi

[Perudo]

You can go oom on every fight there is in Ulduar, you can get damaged from every right there is in Ulduar. My guild is still in the process in of clearing Ulduar, as you can see. People die, i have to use more mana, i'm using thunderstorm every time it's up, but i still have to use more mana for the people that died. Sorry not everyone in the World of Warcraft is a hardcore raider. Maybe once i get a solid group ill take points out of convection and put them elsewhere, but until then, I'll spec into convection, kthx.

Im impressed to see a elemental shaman with your gear go oom in ulduar. Are you the only dps in the raid or what?

Since the few fights I have been to I have never had any mana problems with my gear. (basicly 25 man naxx gear)

So please, explain how you can go oom in ulduar 25 as Schippi suggests.

[Mataus]

would you mind checking my armory before calling someone casual?

and 6% dmg redux will NOT get you through hardmodes if your raid can't do it without you having EW.
i'm not arguing that EW is a better/worse choice then convex, i'm just trying to make clear that people should not rely on a talent that insignificant.
6% by itself is nothing. your healers won't notice.

edit: just in case there are more than one skollvaldrs (which there probably are), im on anub'arak eu.

However.... Mana talents = kind of useless for most encounters by the time you are Ulduar geared. Many fights, I end the fight with 85% mana and I don't even put points in Unrelenting Storm. I keep 5/5 Convection since we do hard-mode Vezax. I put 2/2 in Imp Fire Nova (just for random world pvp)... and 1/3 EW. Really I should drop Imp Fire Nova and put those points in EW.

Now, I will agree to some extent that 3/3 EW won't make a huge difference, but it adds up. If you've ever lived with less than 500 health, you know the power of talents like that.

[Mataus]

You can go oom on every fight there is in Ulduar, you can get damaged from every right there is in Ulduar. My guild is still in the process in of clearing Ulduar, as you can see. People die, i have to use more mana, i'm using thunderstorm every time it's up, but i still have to use more mana for the people that died. Sorry not everyone in the World of Warcraft is a hardcore raider. Maybe once i get a solid group ill take points out of convection and put them elsewhere, but until then, I'll spec into convection, kthx.

LOL How... do you go /oom? Unless you are resto, there's no way you should ever go /oom.

[Deleted]

If you've ever lived with less than 500 health, you know the power of talents like that.

The nice thing is... with EW and raidbuffed in pretty good gear it's about 1.4k Health. So whenever you are below that point, you know that EW just saved your ass.