What's more important weapon top damage or weapon DPS?

[Granpa]

Assuming all other stats are the same, would a weapon with a higher top-end damage be better than a weapon with higher DPS. For example, say I have a weapon with a 3.60 attack speed and top damage of 1000 versus a weapon with a 3.0 attack speed but a top damage of only 950, thus resulting in a higher dps. Which would be better for a DK (2h)?

[Llanthos]

Obviously, the higher dps weapon is going to do the most overall white damage. And if the top end damage isn't that different, you take the upgrade. Overall, you would be better off with an upgrade from a slower weapon, since your 'strikes' are all based on weapon damage, not dps.

I recently had that dilemma when a polarm dropped in Uld10, and I was still using a Naxx10 weapon. Lower high-end damage, but obviously more dps. I lost the role, so I didn't get it, then got Ironsoul the next run so it was moot anyway

[nobanme]

I had the same dillema a couple of weeks after season 6 started.

WorldCarver - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45165 (632-949 weapon dmg)
Furious Gladiators Greatsword - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42333 (670-1005 weapon dmg)

Both are 232 dps weapons.
WorldCarver even gives more attack power.

But Furious Gladiators Greatsword always seemed to give slightly higher dps.
Imo weapon dmg > all.

One thing to note about weapon dmg though. Its not the high number your looking at, or even the low number. Its the average number they give.

WorldCarver average weapon dmg = 790.5
Furious Gladiators Greatsword average weapon dmg = 837.5

If Furious Glad weapn dmg had looked like this - (1-1005 weapon dmg)
Then the average weapoon dmg would of been = 503
And then WorldCarver would of been the obvious more average weapon dmg.

Anyone can feel to disagree with me if you like, i know some theorycraftists will say "But, but, but WorldCarver is 3rd best DK DPS weapon!", and all i will say back to you is "Well this may be true, but for me it wasnt".

[Tigercat]

Nobanme, it's not the same dilemma when youve got one weapon that is both slower and has the better damage range. The question was about when youve got one weapon with a better damage range, but the other has a slower speed.

[nobanme]

Ok, well maybe the information i provided was of some help anyway, although i did misread the question a bit.

If it helps -

WorldCarver is = 3.4 Attack Speed
Fur Glad GS = 3.6 Attack Speed

With the same ilevel item youll generally find that top end weapon dmg and weapon speed will come hand in hand. So although my logic wasn't quite what the question asked, my conclusion would be the same anyway.

And the reason is because special abilities that benefit from +weapon dmg seem to me to give better dps results, regardless of slightly faster attack speeds.

[Nyanmaru]

Just take the essence of nobanme's posting:
same dps + higher average damage = better overall damage

Same DpS = Same White damage
higher average damage = better strike damage

Napkin math:
each strike does 100% weapon damage

500 dps weapon, 2.0 speed -> 1,000-1,000 damage per strike
5 strikes per 10s = 5x 1,000 damage = 5,000 damage
melee hits = 10s / 2 s/hit = 5 hits * 1,000 damage = 5,000 damage
Overall 10,000 damage per 10s

500 dps weapon, 10.0 speed -> 5,000-5,000 damage per strike
5 strikes per 10s = 5* 5,000 = 25,000 damage
melee hits = 10s / 10s/hit = 1 hit * 5,000 damage = 5,000 damage
Overall 30,000 damage per 10s

Melee-Damage is dependant on weapon DpS and is the same regardless of speed, strike damage is dependant on average weapon damage and favors slower weapons.

[nobanme]

Just take the essence of nobanme's posting:
same dps + higher average damage = better overall damage

Same DpS = Same White damage
higher average damage = better strike damage

Napkin math:
each strike does 100% weapon damage

500 dps weapon, 2.0 speed -> 1,000-1,000 damage per strike
5 strikes per 10s = 5x 1,000 damage = 5,000 damage
melee hits = 10s / 2 s/hit = 5 hits * 1,000 damage = 5,000 damage
Overall 10,000 damage per 10s

500 dps weapon, 10.0 speed -> 5,000-5,000 damage per strike
5 strikes per 10s = 5* 5,000 = 25,000 damage
melee hits = 10s / 10s/hit = 1 hit * 5,000 damage = 5,000 damage
Overall 30,000 damage per 10s

Melee-Damage is dependant on weapon DpS and is the same regardless of speed, strike damage is dependant on average weapon damage and favors slower weapons.

"Assuming all other stats are the same, would a weapon with a higher top-end damage be better than a weapon with higher DPS"

That was the question.

Although i dont think theres 2 weapons in the game where this situation happens tbh. A weapon with higher weapon dmg can only either have the same dps or higher dps than a weapon with lower weapon dmg, but it's dps stat can never be lower.

Feel free to link 2 weapons to show im wrong, if i am actually wrong, because i would be interested to see if there are 2 weapons like this at all.

[Kharay1977]

"Assuming all other stats are the same, would a weapon with a higher top-end damage be better than a weapon with higher DPS"

That was the question.

Although i dont think theres 2 weapons in the game where this situation happens tbh. A weapon with higher weapon dmg can only either have the same dps or higher dps than a weapon with lower weapon dmg, but its can never be lower.

Feel free to link 2 weapons to show im wrong, if i am actually wrong, because i would be interested to see if there are 2 weapons like this at all.

I'm inclined to agree with you that the comparison simply doesn't exist ingame. Not if you also take into account that they'd have to have matching weapon SPEEDS. So, yes, we'd have to find 2 weapons, with matching speed, matching level (or ilevel even)... with one having a higher top end damage and the other a higher DPS.

[Wingwraith]

"Assuming all other stats are the same, would a weapon with a higher top-end damage be better than a weapon with higher DPS"

That was the question.

I think the problem here is that is was a "bad" question. Not bad as in stupid, but bad as in phrased wrong or lacking the knowledge to ask what he should be asking.

And I think Sweetcheeks and others have clearly answered the question that he should have been asking.

[Melonberry]

"Assuming all other stats are the same, would a weapon with a higher top-end damage be better than a weapon with higher DPS"

That was the question.

Although i dont think theres 2 weapons in the game where this situation happens tbh. A weapon with higher weapon dmg can only either have the same dps or higher dps than a weapon with lower weapon dmg, but it's dps stat can never be lower.

Feel free to link 2 weapons to show im wrong, if i am actually wrong, because i would be interested to see if there are 2 weapons like this at all.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37693
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40704

First 2 weapons I found. Higher damage doesn't always mean higher dps.

Another:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40497
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45311
That one is a little more on subject. Which weapon would yield higher overall dps?

[Granpa]

Okay I see a lot of confusion in what I asked. Sorry if my wording was confusing. Anyhow to make it as simple as possible:

I got this weapon from Ulduar last night because nobody else wanted it:

Relentless Edge - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45311

This is my usual weapon:

Jawbone - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39758

Which one should I use.

[Melonberry]

Okay I see a lot of confusion in what I asked. Sorry if my wording was confusing. Anyhow to make it as simple as possible:

I got this weapon from Ulduar last night because nobody else wanted it:

Relentless Edge - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45311

This is my usual weapon:

Jawbone - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39758

Which one should I use.

Simple answer. Try them both on the target dummy. You already have them.

[harky]

Simpler answer. Relentless Edge is garbage. Jawbone owns it. :

More important answer:
Assuming Blood spec: Relentless Edge is worth ~2617 APE. Jawbone is worth ~2599 APE.
Assuming Frost spec: Relentless Edge is worth ~2431 APE. Jawbone is worth ~2421 APE.

Jawbone is better for Unholy. Relentless Edge is slightly better for Blood and Frost, but due to a higher top end the two are probably equivalent. Don't oversimplify.

As far as calculating the top end, take a look at Relentless and Jawbone again. Averages are 679 for RE and 733 for Jawbone. This means if every GCD is used for an attack benefiting from 100% weapon damage and your target has 0 armor Jawbone will get an advantage of 36 DPS. However, there are 12 GCD's that Blood can't use an ability utilizing weapon damage during each 1 minute period. This brings it back down to around 25 DPS. Of course you should also be applying roughly 30% armor, which can't be avoided. That brings it down to 17.5 DPS even if you're running 100% ArP.

In any case, deciding between the two for anything but Unholy isn't as easy as saying one is garbage and the other owns it. Especially when the garbage weapon is statistically superior.

[Dukamok]

Just take the essence of nobanme's posting:
same dps + higher average damage = better overall damage

Same DpS = Same White damage
higher average damage = better strike damage

Napkin math:
each strike does 100% weapon damage

500 dps weapon, 2.0 speed -> 1,000-1,000 damage per strike
5 strikes per 10s = 5x 1,000 damage = 5,000 damage
melee hits = 10s / 2 s/hit = 5 hits * 1,000 damage = 5,000 damage
Overall 10,000 damage per 10s

500 dps weapon, 10.0 speed -> 5,000-5,000 damage per strike
5 strikes per 10s = 5* 5,000 = 25,000 damage
melee hits = 10s / 10s/hit = 1 hit * 5,000 damage = 5,000 damage
Overall 30,000 damage per 10s

Melee-Damage is dependant on weapon DpS and is the same regardless of speed, strike damage is dependant on average weapon damage and favors slower weapons.

Um, check your math hardcore, that's way off.

Generally a LOT of people see better results with equal dps but the slow weapon. However, with a gap like yours, USUALLY the higher dps will win out, but because of poor DK itemization and a REALLY low 3.2 speed, Relentless Edge is probably worse, but test first.

[Granpa]

Well I've ran some test and on the boss test dummy in Ebon Hold I'm getting virtually identical numbers with both weapons. Because of the particular stats of each I would have to say that in a raid situation, the Jawbone scales better than the Relentless Edge, therefore it is what I will be using.

[NoAbloIngles]

1050 Top damage
3.6 speed
232 DPS

Blood strike hit for 600
Scourge strike hit for 7000

------------------------------------
800 Top damage
3.2 speed
232 DPS

Blood strike hit for 490
Scourge strike hit for 5700
------------------------------------
same overall white damage on both.
------------------------------------

not real numbers but we are DKs all our atacks are instant, so we should look for Top Damage > Weapon DPS

[nobanme]

Um, check your math hardcore, that's way off.

Generally a LOT of people see better results with equal dps but the slow weapon. However, with a gap like yours, USUALLY the higher dps will win out, but because of poor DK itemization and a REALLY low 3.2 speed, Relentless Edge is probably worse, but test first.

I checked his math, and the calculations he made was spot on.

He is also correct to assume that if you have a weapon with 5 times faster attack speed that the average weapon dmg will also scale by 5 times, i checked that against exising weapons too.

So, no, his maths wasnt way off, it was spot on correct.

Thnx.

[nobanme]

not real numbers but we are DKs all our atacks are instant, so we should look for Top Damage > Weapon DPS

This however is only partially correct.

Top dmg isn as important as average weapon dmg.

If you had a weapon that had 1-10,000 dmg, it would have an average weapon dmg of 500.5
If you had a weapon that had 600-601 dmg, it would have an average weapon dmg of 600.5

I would however have the opinion that average weapon dmg > weapon dps

HOWEVER (read on) -

Weapon dps is calculated like this -
Average weapon dmg / Swing speed.

In other words Relentless Edge Calculations would look like this -

(543+815)/2 = 679 average weapon dmg
679/3.2 = 212 dps

Because average weapon damage scales at almost exactly the same multiplication as weapon attack speed, you will realise it is impossible for the following sentence to ever become true -

"I would however have the opinion that average weapon dmg > weapon dps " <----can never be true

This can never be true because Blizzard scales average weapon dmg at the same scale as weapon attack speed meaning that weapon dps for slow or fast weapons will always be exactly the same.

So it is an irrelevant question to ask.

The correct question to ask is this -
"If all other stats are the same, which weapon is better, one with lower average weapon dmg, or one with higher average weapon dmg"*

*(sidenote, this is also an impossible situation, because ilevel stats are distributed evenly amongst same ilevel items. It is an impossibility for "all other stats to be the same" but one weapon will have higher average weapon dmg than the other. If one weapon has a higher average weapon dmg than the other, then it is automatic that the swing timer will be slower, so that both weapons will have the same dps number)

And the answer is this -
"If you are on boss fights, then higher average weapon dmg will yield more dps"
(it could be argued that where mobs die fast then a weapon with lower average damage will yield more dps because of the faster swing timer)

It is automatic that higher average weapon dmg will be slower in attack speed, but the actual dps number of the weapon will be the same as the same ilevel weapon that has lower average weapon dmg but a faster weapon attack speed.

PHEW !!

Hope thats explained a bit more

[nobanme]

USUALLY the higher dps will win out

Which makes this sentence true.

BUT (and read on again) -

The weapon isnt yielding higher dps results simply because it has a solely higher dps figure (which only affects white attacks), no that is not the case.

It is yielding a higher dps figure because it would be a higher ilevel item, meaning it would also have higher average weapon dmg. (meaning yellow attacks are hitting for harder amounts).


./end

[harky]

I would love to see live tests backing up that math. A weapon as fast as Relentless yields absolutely pitiful scourge strikes, death strikes, blood strikes, heart strikes, frost strikes, obliterates, plague strikes, etc.

The average damage difference in 54. Strikes are normalized. Just ran tests using a Flamberge and a Great Axe. Damage difference in a little less, but the speeds are the same. Top end on white swings is 268. Scourge Strike?

3.6: 1723 avg hit, 4146 avg crit.
3.2: 1687 avg hit, 4128 avg crit.

Now that's just a quick test for 100 strikes with each, but the damage difference similar. For reference here's the same test with Worldcarver: 2583 avg hit, 6202 avg crit. The average damage difference from the Flamberge is 716, but I also gain 274 AP, or +66.5 normalized damage. That means the damage difference is 896, while the napkin difference should be 782. However, this is well within the margin of error for this sample size. Still, if we take that to be explained by the weapon speed that means a 3.2 speed weapon would be hitting for 114 less damage with SS. That's a gain of 28 DPS compared to a weapon with no stats, whereas Relentless Edge actually has superior stats.

The damage gained from weapon speed is very hard to figure. At most the DPS difference is: average damage difference * average weapon damage modifier * armor rate / 1.5. That isn't accurate if the faster weapon is higher DPS though as you'd have to figure in white damage gains and other factors. Welcome to the world of normalization.