FW: How do YOU take down other classes? PvP guide.

[Amphrodos]

http://thottbot.com/v4324435

This was a forum i found helpful on beating other classes(a rotation breakdown for EVERY class), more as a general guide. I know there is no "follow this exactly and you will pwn" guide, every fight is different. But still, something like this would be nice to have posted along with like the ELE and ENH FAQ pages, and im sure we can bring it up to mmo standards .(i know i could use something on mages and disc priests, they're my beasts(enh))

btw, this forum was geared to ele, but it would be cool if a hero member could make something for every class ;D
hope this helps somebody

[Boombjørn]

That's probably the worst "guide" I have ever read

I basicly sais "use FS, LvB, CL and remember to use your Nova Totem and Earthbind." Well, that's some mighty great advice

[Burak]

Wow...dunno what to say really, just stumbled across this thread and I recognized the thread topic. wrote that thread around 6 months ago when elemental shamans sucked (big time), there was no earthbind totem root, no instant LvB or anything.

Really glad someone took notice of it though! (I've updated it a bit)

I know it's not the world's greatest elemental shaman "guide", I never intended it to be that way...just wanted to share my knowledge with my fellow shamans.

Again, good to see someone notices my work

[Amphrodos]

That's probably the worst "guide" I have ever read

I basicly sais "use FS, LvB, CL and remember to use your Nova Totem and Earthbind." Well, that's some mighty great advice

GJ on getting the point of the thread. More or less, i did say this was not a "beat all guide", what i was actually trying to do was get a skilled member to IMPROVE upon it for us lesser skilled ppl(i dont think you got the point :, scarcasim).

also, now that we have the origional artist on board(kind of surprizing, but ;D), perhaps a "How to Take Down Classes 2.0" can be made, and maintained throught the patches. Also if possible, a kinda Levva style of gear/stat breakdown for pvp would be nice, as far as weapon imbues, enchants, etc, etc.

P.S. to Burak- Though it is now outdated, i did find it useful earlier, and have integrated the same basics into the new stuff. Despite ppl sayin its "basically" simple, often the simplest rotation is the best. The more complicated it gets, the harder it is to use. TY for the thread!

[Rifee]

Well..the moment you believe there's a rotation in pvp, you should realise pve is more your thing.

[TwistedPower]

Ok so your a shamen thats not resto so you dont have earthshield, and along comes a rogue right?, so he cheapshots you, ok you wate, then he kidknee shots you, you trinket cuase your smart. He blinds you, waits 2 seconds before the blind goes away and regular stelths, then cheapshots you, then he cold blood eviscerates and hits you for 9k damage even though you have 900 resilience and its the PTR and you die. How do you beat that one?

I'll fraps me doing it on the ptr. Sprint+ cloak beats anything that anyshamen has ever tried to do, thunderstorm and w/e, and i didnt even use my vanish.

Here is why i post this. I play a shamen both ele and enhanced with good gear from arena and pve. I copies a premade charicter for rogue and fought other shamens. Only resto ever lives and even then allot of the time they dont.

As far as i can tell the way you beat a rogue is roll resto :-(

[Amphrodos]

not quite. for a rogue, in ele, i usually wait til the very end of kidney shot(shield+astral shift make it survivable), just befor it ends, i TS, quickly flameshock. Flameshock can break the stealth(last time i checked), so you can keep an eye on him if he blinds you. if he doesn't, throw down earthbind-nova combo, lavaburst away, and frostshock to keep him away from u. if hes usin crippling poisoin, drop a clensing after nova. If he does blind you, wait til he gets within earthbind range, surprize trink out of it, earthbind, nova, so on and so forth. Just keep flameshock on at all times to keep him from stealthing, and frostshock to keep him back. He sounds like a very cleaver rogue, u just have to be cleaverer. (btw, if he tries to run, frost shock him fast and gw after him, once hes out of his CC cooldowns hes not so bad to kill.)

If ur enh, things are a little different. At cheapshot, immediatly Sham Rage. wont absorb as much damage as an ele, so you HAVE to trink at kidney. best choice at this time is bring out the dogs, they'll stun while u flameshock. if he blinds you, dogs will stay on him and flame will stop vanish. at this point, he will either run or come to beat the shit outa u. if he runs, frost shock quickly and gw after him and just beat/slow him to death. if he comes for you, drop earthbind/nova(you should have stun in enh anyway). if his health isn't lower than urs, duking it out may not be the best idea, slow and shock him down. Once u have a firm lead on his health, get far back enough to Hex, and procede to beat him to a pulp. You might be a mele class, but that doesn't mean you are the best mele class(and mele cant hit you when they cant get close enough )



Heres the catch with shamans, we are the hardest class to play. Why? Because we require more skill than every other class in order to be as good as those other classes. You know how i(enh) generally deal with rogues. 90% of the time, i will know that they are there, and i use my gear manager to make my offhand weapon a shield. i have two macros on my action bar that switch dual with 1h/shield, depending on whether im facing a mele or magic class. When im in travel, or defending an area, i will use 1h/shield as a default. It takes creativity like that to be effective when ur at a disadvantage.

[Rifee]

not quite. for a rogue, in ele, i usually wait til the very end of kidney shot(shield+astral shift make it survivable), just befor it ends, i TS, quickly flameshock. Flameshock can break the stealth(last time i checked), so you can keep an eye on him if he blinds you. if he doesn't, throw down earthbind-nova combo, lavaburst away, and frostshock to keep him away from u. if hes usin crippling poisoin, drop a clensing after nova. If he does blind you, wait til he gets within earthbind range, surprize trink out of it, earthbind, nova, so on and so forth. Just keep flameshock on at all times to keep him from stealthing, and frostshock to keep him back. He sounds like a very cleaver rogue, u just have to be cleaverer. (btw, if he tries to run, frost shock him fast and gw after him, once hes out of his CC cooldowns hes not so bad to kill.)

If ur enh, things are a little different. At cheapshot, immediatly Sham Rage. wont absorb as much damage as an ele, so you HAVE to trink at kidney. best choice at this time is bring out the dogs, they'll stun while u flameshock. if he blinds you, dogs will stay on him and flame will stop vanish. at this point, he will either run or come to beat the shit outa u. if he runs, frost shock quickly and gw after him and just beat/slow him to death. if he comes for you, drop earthbind/nova(you should have stun in enh anyway). if his health isn't lower than urs, duking it out may not be the best idea, slow and shock him down. Once u have a firm lead on his health, get far back enough to Hex, and procede to beat him to a pulp. You might be a mele class, but that doesn't mean you are the best mele class(and mele cant hit you when they cant get close enough )



Heres the catch with shamans, we are the hardest class to play. Why? Because we require more skill than every other class in order to be as good as those other classes. You know how i(enh) generally deal with rogues. 90% of the time, i will know that they are there, and i use my gear manager to make my offhand weapon a shield. i have two macros on my action bar that switch dual with 1h/shield, depending on whether im facing a mele or magic class. When im in travel, or defending an area, i will use 1h/shield as a default. It takes creativity like that to be effective when ur at a disadvantage.

Well, in those fights you describe, you talk as if the rogue doesn't have CloS, trinket or disarm..+ maybe prep too:P
It's true though, you gotta do the unsuspected to win against a rogue

Switching between a shield and dual wiel is required indeed. But I would'n call it creativity or skill (even though most dk's would cry if they had to even think about using an extra global cd for defensive actions..nabs) . I would call it mandatory. If you don't use every ability ( like being able to use shields) then you're not playing your class right. (like feral druids having healing maces for when they hot themselves).

But I think I get what you mean. That not many classes have to micromanage such small but significant things to do well. Dk's or paladins for example, can just press a button for defense, when still being offensive ..and all this by a press of a button. No thinking involved except from maybe thinking about if you need that ability for later.

I play an arsm warrior and a resto shammy, and I gotta say, both those classes strikes me as having to manage much more things then every other class. Just the constant switching Between weapons and stances..having to sacrifice many global cooldowns and offensive power to go defensive, and vice versa. And all the totem managing as well as the huge amountof fake casting needed for resto shamans. I see most other classes as really forgiving and having little penalty for using their abilities compared to shamans and warriors.

And I gotta say this: In my eyes it's not shamans that are UP, it's every class that's OP. Now by that I mean..don't buff shamans to the forgiving and uncomplicated level of MOST other classes. Fix the other's so that they have the same skill requirements as us.

[Boombjørn]

I'm sry to say this Amphrodos, but this is sooo far from real pvp situations. It sounds like you never fought a person who actually know how to play. Either that, or you don't describe your knowledge from real situations, but from how it would work for you in Theory.

Sitting out 10 sec stun (4 sec Cheap + 6 sec kidney) from a Rogue, without using Trinket, as an Ele, would 100% kill you, even if you are close to res capped.

I myself have around 1.000 Res, 21k HP and 2700 SP min my pvp Ele gear (with Totem ofc.). And I can't take a Rogue (in the same gear as me) below 50% HP (most of the times, not below 80%), and I pvp quiet alot. the only way in hell I can survive anything, is like TwistedPower stated, going Resto.

So Either you are a pvp God, or you have no clue of what you are talking about. If the following Armory is you, (which I guess it is, since it's actually the only person in the world with that name, who happens to be a lvl 80 Shaman.) I think we should end the discussion here.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...lp&n=Amphrodos

[Amphrodos]

god i wish they would update that thing :P, its been like 2 weeks. And it is not theory, its actuall practice. I may not have met enough rogues in ele for ur standards, im usually enh in pvp. Besides, its not 10 seconds, its 8, you TS before break. And for the situation 1v1 he is talking about what else would you do. Break early, get blinded, etc, etc. Its a loosing situation, you have a better chance at surviving the first hit and finishing his lead than getting blinded, cheapshotted again, and evicerated in the balls.

So give me your layout of how you would take out that rogue, Boombjorn. Cause it sounds like you have some experience in the matters. Though i got the impression you had ur plan layed out in previous post, let the rogue just castrate you, but that just seems silly. It would be cool if u make a plan for the point of this post, a general pvp guide.

[Rifee]

god i wish they would update that thing :P, its been like 2 weeks. And it is not theory, its actuall practice. I may not have met enough rogues in ele for ur standards, im usually enh in pvp. Besides, its not 10 seconds, its 8, you TS before break. And for the situation 1v1 he is talking about what else would you do. Break early, get blinded, etc, etc. Its a loosing situation, you have a better chance at surviving the first hit and finishing his lead than getting blinded, cheapshotted again, and evicerated in the balls.

So give me your layout of how you would take out that rogue, Boombjorn. Cause it sounds like you have some experience in the matters. Though i got the impression you had ur plan layed out in previous post, let the rogue just castrate you, but that just seems silly. It would be cool if u make a plan for the point of this post, a general pvp guide.

the thing is, you didn't even mention when or of the rogue uses trinket or even Clos or prep:P

Op rogues are op

[Boombjørn]

god i wish they would update that thing :P, its been like 2 weeks. And it is not theory, its actuall practice. I may not have met enough rogues in ele for ur standards, im usually enh in pvp. Besides, its not 10 seconds, its 8, you TS before break. And for the situation 1v1 he is talking about what else would you do. Break early, get blinded, etc, etc. Its a loosing situation, you have a better chance at surviving the first hit and finishing his lead than getting blinded, cheapshotted again, and evicerated in the balls.

So give me your layout of how you would take out that rogue, Boombjorn. Cause it sounds like you have some experience in the matters. Though i got the impression you had ur plan layed out in previous post, let the rogue just castrate you, but that just seems silly. It would be cool if u make a plan for the point of this post, a general pvp guide.

Let's see this from a Rogues point of view: he still has he's CoS on the top of that, let's say 8 sec stun. then he can vanish Twice, from Earthbind, plus trinket Fire Nova. He's gonna have like 20 sec damage uptime, out of the first 20 sec of the fight, while you have 2-3 sec's on him, where the only damage you get off are some instants.

do not expect to win against Rogues in a 1on1, it's Rock-scissor-paper, and guess what, the Rogue is Scirror, and you're not the Rock

[Amphrodos]

k, for trink, Cloak of Shadows, and Prep, here is what id do. Most likely he will use the trink in the earthbind, as it lasts 5 secs, opposed to the nova which lasts 2. meaning hes screwed anyway then if he still tries to before nova goes vanish/CloS, the stun will break it. if he doesn't use it then and gets stunned, immediatly drop magma and make sure flameshock is on. before he can vanish he will have to use CloS, but even then if you stay on him hes gona get broke back out with magma. Flameshock again. At this point, ur sayin what about his 10 min cd Prep? So he refreshes vanish/sprint and others, the flameshock/frost will stop him from gettin away, and do some good damage in the process. If he decides to try to fight you out from the begining, not wanting to vanish, keep frostshock/earthbind up, kite. Worst comes to worst just drop fire elemental totem, cause this shit doesn't happen on a regular basis, practically 1v1. Ultimately, the hardest part is comming back from the stuns damage, if u can keep him from vanishing and well away from you, the battle is yours.

Btw, i dont ever "expect" to win against a rogue, i just play it like chess, you have to predict what he'll do next and be as ready as possible for it. If you expect to lose, you can always plan on losing, cause it wont change til you do. Still waiting for you to tell me what you do in a rogue fight, and stop holding out ur balls for rogues to cut them off, its pitiful.

Also, since this is only really gona happen in duels(bgs somebody is gona hit that rogue, and same with arena), heres an option. request the duel, stay close to the rogue, when he stealths battle will be 3 secs from starting. Try to stay as close as possble to him(sometimes u just have to guess), and immediatly drop earthbind when it starts. you have a high probability catching him with his pants down, and then just rape. how did you not think of that :P

[Boombjørn]

A Rogue is never gonna trinket Earthbind, since he can Vanish out of Snare effect, and he's got 2 x Vanish.

Why would a Rogue in a million years try to run away from you, he's got 4 times the damage uptime on you, then you on him, aslong as he stays on you.

you're so far from reality it's unbelievable (if you can call wow reality). Stop making up unreal pvp situations in your head.


This is my last post in this Thread, you clearly have no clue about pvp, I don't even know why I try to open your eyes. It's a beautiful thought, that one should never give up, but then start collecting pvp items, practice your pvp, and learn how to realy beat a Rogue. Once you've reaced your goal, come back and tell us about it, untill then, stop wasting everybodys time, with your theories.

Happy Hunting

Boombjørn


Edit: Typos