Some Still Believe...

[Snowbell]

So, this thread is for mocking people who still believe that content should be accessible for the majority of paying customers, rather than the elite few who can dedicate several weeknights and all of their weekend evenings to a computer game?

Don't get me wrong, I love a good challenge, but people need to accept that the majority of subscribers have work and social obligations that trump phat lootz. I think the reason this group has been so vocal in regards to Ulduar is because Patch 3.1 contained very little else besides it. Apart from Tournament Dailies (yawn) and class changes, Ulduar was it. Everyone who took the time to level to 80, slowly geared up in Naxx PUGs, and was expecting to continue experiencing the new content they've been paying and playing for were quickly given a metaphorical middle finger.

I'm not going to try to settle the Casual vs. Hardcore debate, as there is no easy way to settle it and this is hardly the context in which I'd like to try. I do hope that Ulduar has convinced Blizzard not to release raid content without including meaningful (i.e. non-coma inducing) content for more casual players on the side. I'm of the opinion that no raid should launch without at least a new 5-man dungeon, maybe even two.

Now, I know it's cool to look down upon the average Joes who only a few hours to play each week, wagging an enormous epic e-peen mockingly in their general direction. But do try to remember that not everyone can afford to play quite as hard as the hardest of the hardcore poop-sockers, while everyone still pays the same subscription fee. While you may feel entitled to all the digital dick-wagging Ulduar's exclusivity represents, remember that the majority, as paying customers, are entitled to their money's worth in the form of new content.

In the end, World of Warcraft is a game, and you can't get upset at or mock people for treating it as such.

My guild raids 6-9 hours every week (most people spend 3 times that infront of the TV) And we have most hardmodes in heroic ulduar on farm (working on yogg+1). You are saying that people who can't bother to spend 9 hours each week playing wow should be able to get the same amount of good items as the ones who do? What would they need them for anyways since they wont be raiding with them?

WoW is like most games, you get better at it (or in this case you get better gear) depending on how much time you spend playing it.

[Mahagony]

All right, i would like to make a Statement here.

I am a Member of one of best German PvE-Guilds (World Top50), but quit raiding with them in Wotlk.
Still i wanted to Experience the Content of Ulduar in 10 as well as in 25.
10 was rather easy of course, although it took me some time to actually find people that i could do the Hardmodes with.

So now i wanted to do 25. It started with "Lets try and zerg down Leviathan!" i made a group, halfway through i decided to balance the lineup so we could go for XT and Razor too and Voila! we killed those 3 Bosses on first attempt, wiped 4 times on Ignis, killed him too and got to Kologarn on this evening, continuing the ID the other day, beating Freya. That was 2 Months ago, when the Instance was NOT known by anyone yet.
By now i still look for people in the Trade-Chan (although i got a nice bunch of regular members ofc) and we manage to clear (!) the instance up to Yogg and have had some really nice tries on him, too. I am positive to kill him as well in the upcoming ID.
So? That would mean having cleared the Instance as a random Group. Its not a Guild-Group, i only have 2 or 3 Twinks of my Guild on the lineup, so its perfectly random. It was not always that easy, in the first weeks we had times where we would wipe at ignis für 4-6 times and even spent one whole evening on Kologarn, who raped our asses. Why? I´ll tell you why!

Because of BAD PLAYERS. Yes its true. I´m the raidleader and i was perfectly capable of figuring out why people died or why the raid wiped. Failbot and other Stasi-Addons make this rather easy. And i can tell you, going through the instance with bad players is a nightmare (or impossible). But here's the thing: Is it good, that those Bad Players (pugs u call them) are not able to clear the instance?
Yes of course it is! It is a Game, clearing an Instance is considererd "winning". But why should a bad player win? Tell me! I´m not talking about the poor little random but skilled mage who spends a lot of money and time on his character and just does not have a group to go with, i´m talking about bad players. There is no reason, why they should win the game.

In my Opinion Ulduar was just perfect. I built up a random Group that will have the Instance clear by next Tuesday (with ~6h a Week of Raiding), so its perfectly doable for everyone, guildless or not, but its not for losers.

Thx for reading.

[zorg]

My question is

Why the fuck do you care what people who aren't you, and have no impact on your game, are doing?

What makes you so special to call me and my guild "bads" (/shudder). Yes we're casual, and yes we have almost cleared Ulduar... why do you give a shit?

there in is the problem....

we care due to the game being dumbed down beyond belief...so infact it does have a effect on our game when blizzard cater more to the(in not going to say casual cos casual ppl have brains and can play) dribbling monkeys that are incredibly bad and retarded players that QQ all the time about this is hard that is hard....

[FuzzyLogic]

So, this thread is for mocking people who still believe that content should be accessible for the majority of paying customers, rather than the elite few who can dedicate several weeknights and all of their weekend evenings to a computer game?

Don't get me wrong, I love a good challenge, but people need to accept that the majority of subscribers have work and social obligations that trump phat lootz. I think the reason this group has been so vocal in regards to Ulduar is because Patch 3.1 contained very little else besides it. Apart from Tournament Dailies (yawn) and class changes, Ulduar was it. Everyone who took the time to level to 80, slowly geared up in Naxx PUGs, and was expecting to continue experiencing the new content they've been paying and playing for were quickly given a metaphorical middle finger.

I'm not going to try to settle the Casual vs. Hardcore debate, as there is no easy way to settle it and this is hardly the context in which I'd like to try. I do hope that Ulduar has convinced Blizzard not to release raid content without including meaningful (i.e. non-coma inducing) content for more casual players on the side. I'm of the opinion that no raid should launch without at least a new 5-man dungeon, maybe even two.

Now, I know it's cool to look down upon the average Joes who only a few hours to play each week, wagging an enormous epic e-peen mockingly in their general direction. But do try to remember that not everyone can afford to play quite as hard as the hardest of the hardcore poop-sockers, while everyone still pays the same subscription fee. While you may feel entitled to all the digital dick-wagging Ulduar's exclusivity represents, remember that the majority, as paying customers, are entitled to their money's worth in the form of new content.

In the end, World of Warcraft is a game, and you can't get upset at or mock people for treating it as such.

Thank you for this! Thank you so much I can go to work now knowing that at least one other person out there gets it.

[Bisque]

For those unhappy with the Progression of WoW, where it is going in terms of PVe, whether your "bad players make the game too easy", "he/she shouldnt have access to X" etc... Whilst posting your thoughts, complaints and ideas is certinally good, above all else money talks.

If you are unhappy with the game and posting doesnt work or is taking too long, then simply quit-tis easy as that. There are many people who complain about the state of PVE, but the number of people who complain about PVE and actaully do something about it, for instance quit WoW for a bit because it is so easy-i bet that number is quite low.

For all the moans about the ease of PVE, i have a feeling the majority of moaning players are still WoWing-that being said "the casuals are winning, blizz is still making money, and most likely pve will continue in the same direction in the future"
Assuming lets say a large portion of players quit WoW because of the ease of PVE-large enough/vocal enough that Blizz would notice, I am sure someting would be done.
Again "Money Talks"-if you are unhappy use the power of money to show your displeasure.

[Darthbeast]

Because of BAD PLAYERS. Yes its true. I´m the raidleader and i was perfectly capable of figuring out why people died or why the raid wiped. Failbot and other Stasi-Addons make this rather easy. And i can tell you, going through the instance with bad players is a nightmare (or impossible). But here's the thing: Is it good, that those Bad Players (pugs u call them) are not able to clear the instance?
Yes of course it is! It is a Game, clearing an Instance is considererd "winning". But why should a bad player win?

I couldn't agree more. This has nothing to do with Casual/Hardcore, not in the slightest. WoW has, and always will be, a game where each individual fight boils down to 1-5 mechanics for each player to pay attention to. Certain fights, such as illidan & yogg, break this rule due to length & multiple phases...but honestly, I can explain every fight in ulduar in 1 paragraph. If a player can't understand 1 paragraph of instructions, they should quit, period.

I've never had a problem with wiping because of miscommunication (i.e. overtalkin on vent or such mistakes), or low dps because we brought a friend who isn't geared, or a very poorly timed disconnect...and I don't think any fight in the game should be easy enough to the point where such mistakes/bad luck can be overcome stupidly easy. What I personally have, and will always have a problem with, is plain stupidity. When you're told to MOVE...just MOVE (i.e. biting cold stacks in Hodir) and you end up taking 400k damage from the debuff over the course of the fight (true story, multiple occasions, hurray moonrunner), you need to quit. That has nothing to do with being casual, that is just stupidity.

If anything, I wish blizzard would make more fights that included aspects of teamwork & other such community-based challenges just to weed out the idiotic players who can't handle 1 simple task (Vashj's core tossing comes to mind, & coordinated movements between tanks/heals/dps-shatterers on ignis etc.).

Ulduar is not difficult. Asking blizzard to come out with easier content is a retarded idea. More content, sure, more 5-mans, ok, "easier" content? no sir.

[LeChuck]

I can't really understand on people can complain about how easy the game is regarding hardly anyone has actually completed all the challenges for the expansion.

Regarding casuals wanting Ulduar to be easier, i support them. They don't have the time to play on a raiding guild and they want to see all the content. In my opinion any dungeon should be casual easy at least on 10-man version and if you don't like it play hardmode.

[Skum]

Each to their own I guess.

[Deaths]

I can't really understand on people can complain about how easy the game is regarding hardly anyone has actually completed all the challenges for the expansion.

Regarding casuals wanting Ulduar to be easier, i support them. They don't have the time to play on a raiding guild and they want to see all the content. In my opinion any dungeon should be casual easy at least on 10-man version and if you don't like it play hardmode.

Pretty much... Having raided since wow came out, i have to agree, if people want to be casual than there should be options available to them that allow them to at least experience some of the same content that the "hard core raiding community" experiences. It doesn't have to be exactly the same, they aren't putting in as much time.. but they are paying the same amount of money per month.

[Darthbeast]

Pretty much... Having raided since wow came out, i have to agree, if people want to be casual than there should be options available to them that allow them to at least experience some of the same content that the "hard core raiding community" experiences. It doesn't have to be exactly the same, they aren't putting in as much time.. but they are paying the same amount of money per month.

Flame Leviathan -
Each player gets a vehicle or turret in a vehicle. Each position has no more than 4 buttons, usually only 1-2 worth using.

Razorscale -
Stay out of fire, 1 player needs to operate turrets, tanks need to switch threat after the debuff reaches 2-3 stacks.

Ignis -
Off tank needs to pick up adds, burn them, bring them to a pool, and have a dps shatter them. Tank needs to move Ignis appropriately to position the scorches.

XT -
Gravity bombs = GTFO
Lights bombs = GTFO
Tantrum = heal.
Heart = dps.
Adds = die

Kologarn -
Kill right arm first & every time it respawns, off tank picks up adds @ death.
Casters split into right & left columns, when eyebeamed move right or left respectively.
Constant AoE damage to heal through

Iron Council -
Main tank picks up steelbreaker, offtank the other 2, sit an interrupter on the midget.
Once steelbreaker is dead, run out of green shit, stand in blue shit when green is up.
Once runecaster is dead, avoid nova of doom & lightning tendrils (big flashy shit that hurts).

Auriya -
OT on adds, MT on boss, stand in front of boss. Kill shit.
Fear will happen repeatedly, interrupt afterwards.
(If you're dumb enough to dps the defender, move out of bad shit when it spawns).

Freya -
Explosion adds - Don't kill too many at once, aoe initially then single target down.
Big tree - Stand under mushrooms
Triple adds - split dps, 2 on each, if running 3 healers, put only 1 on water ele.
Freya post-adds - Avoid glowing balls of death
Living trees - kill em.

Hodir -
Avoid shit falling from sky, keep moving (think nexus), break npcs out of flash freeze.
At flash freeze, stand on edge of circle, move in after snow forms.
Maximize buffs, if you get the cloud, move to other players to spread, stand in lightbeams, stand near fire.
Constant AoE damage to heal through

Mimiron -
Phase 1, melee avoid mines, ranged space out decently to avoid napalm'ing each other, melee run out during nova, healers focus on tank during the fire beam shit
Phase 2 - avoid the fuckin newblaser, random target damage so constant raid healing.
Phase 3 - Ranged dps caster-tank head, melee help on adds, hunters/druids handle bomb bots
Phase 4 - Phases 1-3 combined, minus fire beam shit & adds.

Thorim -
Gauntlet - Dps adds, cc a few if dps is slow, move right/left to avoid flame walls as you progress. Can finesse pull on second mini-boss with a hunter/warlock pet or simply blitz though
Pit - Tank hold adds, dps healers first, dispel shield they put up.
Actual boss - Avoid streams of lightning, tanks switch @ unbalancing strike.

General -
No normal mana regen, must bust clouds & stand in bad shit to regen mana at cost of health.
Caster dps avoid shadow crashes, then stand in the remains to receive dps & mana-reduction buffs
Melee interrupt flame nova.
Tank either kite or IBF/SW through mini-enrage every minute.

Yogg -
Phase 1 - avoid clouds, dps adds, kill them near Sara with no melee nearby.
Phase 2 - Casters focus on tentacles, Constrictor > Big ones > Caster-tinyones. Maintain sanity with green beams & when brain linked stand near your link target. Melee take portals to brain room & dps adds down to open the door to brain (avoid looking at bad skull-shit to minimize damage taken). Dps brain rapidly then GTFO before time runs out & you get MC'd.
Phase 3 - Healers turn back on boss, tank grab adds, set dps work on boss, set dps work on adds, maintain sanity & avoid looking at boss during purple shit.


Now, can someone tell me what part of this is difficult? Cause it seems to me like its extremely straightforward, and has nothing to do with being casual or hardcore. And for the record, Ulduar is possibly the most casual-friendly instance in the game atm, due to hilariously small amount of trash (something I definitely approve of btw).

[Saikred]

The tactics of bossfights can be very simple when you type it out like that... it has never been the tactics that were the problem

Co-ordination between a raid full of people is what downs bosses... so your guild can do it faster than others? Big deal

[Darthbeast]

The tactics of bossfights can be very simple when you type it out like that... it has never been the tactics that were the problem

Co-ordination between a raid full of people is what downs bosses... so your guild can do it faster than others? Big deal

This is my point. The game has *always* been like this. So how could ulduar possibly be anti-casual specifically if the entire game has been this way? Like I said, I'm fine with glitches causing wipes (tank going north on Ignis when a dps goes south, etc.), but those get fixed - quickly. Repeated wipes due to stupidity separate those worthy of seeing content and those that just can't play period.

[Bats]

I can't really understand on people can complain about how easy the game is regarding hardly anyone has actually completed all the challenges for the expansion.

Regarding casuals wanting Ulduar to be easier, i support them. They don't have the time to play on a raiding guild and they want to see all the content. In my opinion any dungeon should be casual easy at least on 10-man version and if you don't like it play hardmode.

10 man Ulduar is easy enough, it's even piss easy with the hard modes

[Starshatter]

personally, i never finished uld. the guild i went into wotlk with was mostly full of casual players and we couldnt really fill the roster for 25man uld, so all the people who really wanted to play eventually merged with another guild. due to severe leadership issues, half that guild stoped playing or left before kiling thorim/mim in 25, and the rest left after we killed vezax in 10, and im too lazy to find a new guild. But from what i've experienced, i did notice there were alot of unnecessary nerfs to make most of the bosses beyond easy, and some just got nerfed way to much. Mimiron for example was one of the hardest bosses there, and now in 10man hes easier than flame leviathan >.>

i realize there are alot of players in wow who are casual, or have the mentality of a 2yr old, and want! want! want! everything and anything their class can use, the higher ilvl and more purpley it is the better. when they cant get what they want, or end up wiping more than like 2 times on a boss, they qq to blizz and get content that was the fun for the rest of us nerfed into being boringly easy. i personally miss the old days of wow where bosses made you angry at the game for being a pain in the ass. take twin emps and c'thun for example.. so many guilds spent so much time wiping on them, that once you actually did kill them, you got this sense of accomplishment that made you feel like you really did something. now days tho, you can read every possible strat for the boss before the instance is out, zone in, wipe few times, and within the first few days to a week of the instance release your on the last 2-3 bosses. they die so fast and so easy now, that its pretty much trivial, and the sense of accomplishment is gone, and epics dont mean crap anymore. thats why i hate the catering to casuals for EVERYTHING that blizz is doing now days.

[Dieste]

I understand that seeing as I have a crappy computer and can't reliably devote a chunk of time -uninterrupted- to raid, that I may not get to see the cutting edge content. I can accept not seeing Ulduar, nor getting all that phat lewt, because I can't devote the effort required to attain all of that and hence my character can only progress so far.

I do wish there would be something for players who -can't- raid however. I've only seen Flame Lev and Razorscale. Having done the Storm Peaks questline, the feeling of "wow I'm experiencing the storyline" when Razorscale finally lay dead, out of her misery...well, was incredible. :P

I can accept not seeing Ulduar, but I really wish there would be more 5mans and stuff. It sometimes feels like one can only experience the lore in raids.

Also I don't see how casuals = bad? Some of us know how to play our class, we just don't have the time to raid or whatever?

[Darthbeast]

they die so fast and so easy now, that its pretty much trivial, and the sense of accomplishment is gone, and epics dont mean crap anymore. thats why i hate the catering to casuals for EVERYTHING that blizz is doing now days.

And here lies the great misnomer that fuels the casual v hardcore debate. Blizzard is not catering to the casual, they are catering to the idiotic when they nerf content that is already in the game. Catering to the casual was adding 10-man modes of *all* 25-mans, catering to the casual was deciding to make heroics drop Conquest badges. Nerfing content is the direct result of millions of bad players complaining that they couldn't handle more than 1 task at any given time and it was preventing them from claiming to be on equal footing with the rest of the WoW community simply because they were present for a boss kill.

Thankfully blizzard is wising up and learning how to cater to the idiotic community vs. the decent players with hard modes, which at least make things a slight degree more interesting.

[Darthbeast]

I understand that seeing as I have a crappy computer and can't reliably devote a chunk of time -uninterrupted- to raid, that I may not get to see the cutting edge content. I can accept not seeing Ulduar, nor getting all that phat lewt, because I can't devote the effort required to attain all of that and hence my character can only progress so far.

I do wish there would be something for players who -can't- raid however. I've only seen Flame Lev and Razorscale. Having done the Storm Peaks questline, the feeling of "wow I'm experiencing the storyline" when Razorscale finally lay dead, out of her misery...well, was incredible. :P

I can accept not seeing Ulduar, but I really wish there would be more 5mans and stuff. It sometimes feels like one can only experience the lore in raids.

Only problem I see with this is that while it would be nice, in a weird, twisted way, to see a 5-man version of Ulduar, or something...of that sort (maybe each chunk seperated into a 5-man? I.e. each achievement chunk), it would require Blizzard to radically re-design fights to fit the smaller scale, and in most of the fights, completely destroy mechanics. Therefore, it would be unreasonable to presume they would butcher their own content that way, and even if they did you would be playing the half-assed wannabe version of the game and would probably get more enjoyment out of simply watching the fights as they were meant to be done. And while adding more 5-mans (i.e. new content only found in the new 5-mans), would be nice to see, it wouldn't fix the problem that there would still be content you couldn't access without branching into 10-mans. Thus....you aren't left with many options other than getting a better computer and finding a group of folks that are able to handle your interruptions so you can do the bosses with them (we have people in my 10 & 25 who consistently skip trash in order to maintain raid attendance, and we're fine with that - rather have them for the bosses only than not at all)

[Tergha]

This thread is entertaining ;D

Seriously if you agree with the guy in that post that you should be able to pug ulduar with no problem then just.....uh...wow

[Dieste]

And while adding more 5-mans (i.e. new content only found in the new 5-mans), would be nice to see, it wouldn't fix the problem that there would still be content you couldn't access without branching into 10-mans.

True, however it would be better than no content, at all. Some content is well, better than nothing.
It would be nice to see a couple of 5mans released alongside a raid instance which also ties into the lore stuff.

I do have hopes for the 5man in the Coliseum however.

Seriously if you agree with the guy in that post that you should be able to pug ulduar with no problem then just.....uh...wow

There's two kinds of Pugging in my opinion:
Pick up random groupmate
Pick up random groupmate and do a gearcheck.

But anyway, to each their own.

[Deaths]

What it boils down to essentially, is that the majority of the dedicated raiding community, more than likely, feels little resentment to the "casual / 10 man" raiding community... To each his own right? Nerfing / dumbing down the fights to the extreme however, so that 90% of the wow community that fails at life, can beat the bosses, while being able to fail at flame walls, void zones, boss mechanics, and everything else, is essentially the issue... Blizzard should be catering to the 10/25 man raid community, and yes that CAN include casual guilds... I know quite a few who are able to do 10 and 25 mans.. and i know 2 guilds who have "merged" together to do 25 uld, and they are clearing it... but when blizzard caters to the 90% of the people who cant even read how to do a fight, and then just go in and wipe their butts off, and cry about it.. that is the issue.. learn the fights... in most cases they aren't even that "difficult" .. they just require (possibly) a little practice and group coordination.

just because a guild is "casual" doesn't mean they fail, or that they suck... the problem is the 90% of the retards out there who give casuals a bad name...

having raided hardcore since wow was released, I know that I personally dont have any problem with "casual" people... (if they dont suck) but I hate people who fail, who dont try, and who waste 9/24 other peoples time... thats what it boils down to... Peoples TIME. When you wipe.. you dont just cost them gold. You cost them their Time..